The Sub 4 Support Thread

OOnegative

DubOnHoliday wrote: »

Any boardsies pacing the 3:40 group?

snailsong, he’s posts here on & off.

Lazare

boardtc wrote: »

I jumped the gun on my post there and caught up with the thread since, @ariana, I thought I had deleted it before anyone saw it!!

I did a 20miler race on Sunday last and bonked at 25k, due I think to sleeping in and missing proper breakfast :-(. I finished in 3.15, whereas my only previous 20 miler was just sub 3.

@Lazare, I loved your post where you quoted your 2.30ish friend about doing first half in 2:01/2:02 and jogging the hills.

Did you use the aggressive negative split with the pacing band or just the negative? I saw your comment about targetting 3.55!!? Better than an aggressive course based negative for 3.59?

I got changed from wave 3 to 2 but now I am thinking about dropping back to wave 3 on the day to have the 4-hour pacers there to catch them at mile 19!

Hey boardtc, sorry, I've only seen this question.

I ran a 3.5 minute negative which was slighter than my friend suggested but still had me taking it super easy on that first half.

Key is to trust it. I had to dig deep in that regard when the 4:10 guys passed me out. It all came together though.

I'm not familiar with that link, I used mymarathonpace.com and selected medium negative. Had a slight downhill limiter too iirc.

You'll smash it, very best of luck. Don't forget McGrattans at mile 27

boardtc

Lazare wrote: »

I ran a 3.5 minute negative which was slighter than my friend suggested but still had me taking it super easy on that first half.

Key is to trust it. I had to dig deep in that regard when the 4:10 guys passed me out. It all came together though.

I'm not familiar with that link, I used mymarathonpace.com and selected medium negative. Had a slight downhill limiter too iirc.

You'll smash it, very best of luck. Don't forget McGrattans at mile 27

If 3.5min negative is the same as 3.5% negative that's hard core! I've learned to trust 2% negative from the halves but having 4h10m pacers pass is next level alright!

I got the link from this thread @skyblue46 posted it.

I just checked mymarathonpace.com and the trial custom Dublin band .xls seems worth the $6, you've tested it anyway!

We were looking for a local to go to after! Brilliant thanks!

Lazare

boardtc wrote: »

If 3.5min negative is the same as 3.5% negative that's hard core! I've learned to trust 2% negative from the halves but having 4h10m pacers pass is next level alright!

I got the link from this thread @skyblue46 posted it.

I just checked mymarathonpace.com and the trial custom Dublin band .xls seems worth the $6, you've tested it anyway!

We were looking for a local to go to after! Brilliant thanks!

It's an excellent band and almost feels like stealing giving him $6 for the work he has put in.

How do you work out the % there, I'm stumped? Seems closer to the 2% I would have thought, no?

Looking forward to chinwagging over that pint

ewc78

So with just over a week to go,I wake up this morning all bunged up,sore throat and chest on fire and aching all over. This is not good.
I knew something wasn't right the last few days.
Was gonna do a 8 mile this morning but I hardly have the strength to type this nevermind go for a run. I'm worried.

Pomplamousse

ewc78 wrote: »

So with just over a week to go,I wake up this morning all bunged up,sore throat and chest on fire and aching all over. This is not good.
I knew something wasn't right the last few days.
Was gonna do a 8 mile this morning but I hardly have the strength to type this nevermind go for a run. I'm worried.

Similar happened to me for DCM 2016, although closer to the day. Just rest and concentrate on getting better and I think you'll be fine, time is on your side. It'd be a different story if you woke up feeling like that next Saturday. Your training is done so I wouldn't worry about running over the next few days. Hope you feel better soon.

Derco

ewc78 wrote: »

So with just over a week to go,I wake up this morning all bunged up,sore throat and chest on fire and aching all over. This is not good.
I knew something wasn't right the last few days.
Was gonna do a 8 mile this morning but I hardly have the strength to type this nevermind go for a run. I'm worried.

Hopefully it clears up before next weekend. Just rest up and as others have said, you already have the miles in your legs.


Was in ALDI earlier and I heard someone behind me at the checkout with a nasty cough. I was like "AAARRGHHH Get the phook away from me you plague!!!"


Maranoia has begun....

imknackered

Derco wrote: »

Hopefully it clears up before next weekend. Just rest up and as others have said, you already have the miles in your legs.


Was in ALDI earlier and I heard someone behind me at the checkout with a nasty cough. I was like "AAARRGHHH Get the phook away from me you plague!!!"


Maranoia has begun....

Ha ha, i can so relate to this, one of my kids coughed in my face and i nearly dropped him trying to get him away from my face!!

Maranoia does not equal good parenting

ariana`

I'm a bit under the weather too ewc78 but like the others have said much better it hits now than in another few days time. Plenty of fluids and rest and hopefully you'll be grand in another few days.

chris85

3rd marathon (Barcelona 2017 4:27 + DCM 2017 4:12). My goal is sub 4. (I tell most people I just want to finish and make an excuse about having my first child this year impacting training, the fact is I am targeting sub 4 and I have trained for it!!!)

I struggled a little bit last year at DCM and hit a wall at 20 miles hard. I had planned to go with 4 hour pacer but ended up going with 3:50 and if all went wrong i would have some time banked and hit 4 hours. Anyways all went well till 20 miles and hit the wall hard. This strategy went not what I should have done when I should have went for negative splits sticking with 4 hour pacer and grab a few mins in the last 10k if the legs were good and if not hang on tight with the pacer. I could have done better with fluid and food intake but I just think I went too hard the first half. I need to do better and conserve energy for the real race in the final 6 miles. 

This year I have been training mostly solo as training partner injured. I feel ready with a couple of kgs dropped also, some additional strength work (mainly squats/deadlifts) so I feel in a good spot and hit some decent mileage weeks with no injuries. 

Weather looks to be decent based on early forecasts (5-8 degrees, sunny, little wind). Will be checking this hourly all week!!

boardtc

[QUOTE=chris85;108411287
Weather looks to be decent based on early forecasts (5-8 degrees, sunny, little wind). Will be checking this hourly all week!![/QUOTE]

Feels like 2 degrees at 9 am, chilly start!
http://www.myweather2.com/City-Town/Ireland/Dublin/Dublin.aspx?sday=6

Itziger

Folks, I've never seen so much fooking hand-wringing and head colds. Ye'll be fine, ffs.

Cold temps are fine. Wrap up for the hour or so beforehand and maybe have something you can discard at the last min. I'd definitely be wearing an ould sweater. For those with singlets, don't forget the Kipchoge arm warmers, they make you go 4% faster seemingly.

chris85

I overheat easily so will be going with singlet but likely have a pair of gloves in my shorts to keep hands warm if needed. Will be wearing some old clothes to wear and discard at start line and prob an old long sleeve running top for first few miles which I was throwing away anyway.

I think there is a hat in the goodie bag when you get your number.

Joleigh

Im a bit late asking this so any help is appreciated! I cant decide what pacers to go with. Its my 3rd DCM. First one was 4.38. Second one was 4.19 (in 2014). I did the half this year in 1.50 and the 10 mile in 1.24. According to McMillian i should be able to get sub 4 no bother but i know thats a bit ambitious!! Im thinking of running 9min miles but scared of burning out. my average pace for the half was 8.20 and i felt good throughout. I've been aiming to train 5 days a week but sometimes only doing 4 days due to work/kids/husbands shifts. Thanks!

OOnegative

Joleigh wrote: »

Im a bit late asking this so any help is appreciated! I cant decide what pacers to go with. Its my 3rd DCM. First one was 4.38. Second one was 4.19 (in 2014). I did the half this year in 1.50 and the 10 mile in 1.24. According to McMillian i should be able to get sub 4 no bother but i know thats a bit ambitious!! Im thinking of running 9min miles but scared of burning out. my average pace for the half was 8.20 and i felt good throughout. I've been aiming to train 5 days a week but sometimes only doing 4 days due to work/kids/husbands shifts. Thanks!

Go out with the 4.10 pacers and take it conservative, from what I’ve been reading and heard many leave there marathon result behind them over first 7-8 miles in DCM by pushing the pace to much, if you have something left in reserve push on at 20 miles and run a 4.06/7.

chris85

Joleigh wrote: »

Im a bit late asking this so any help is appreciated!  I cant decide what pacers to go with.  Its my 3rd DCM.  First one was 4.38.  Second one was 4.19 (in 2014).  I did the half this year in 1.50 and the 10 mile in 1.24.  According to McMillian i should be able to get sub 4 no bother  but i know thats a bit ambitious!! Im thinking of running 9min miles but scared of burning out.  my average pace for the half was 8.20 and i felt good throughout.  I've been aiming to train 5 days a week but sometimes only doing 4 days due to work/kids/husbands shifts.  Thanks!

Personally I would not put too much in your last marathon as it was 4 years ago so consider it primarily on recent info/data. A rough guide they say is double your half marathon time and add 10-20 mins. Based on this potential to do sub 4 hour marathon. You will know yourself from training how comfortable you are with the pace. I would say start with a conservative pace either way. Training 4 days a week is good so also depends how much and how good the miles are put in with some good easy miles and long runs a key part of it.

ewc78

Joleigh wrote: »

Im a bit late asking this so any help is appreciated! I cant decide what pacers to go with. Its my 3rd DCM. First one was 4.38. Second one was 4.19 (in 2014). I did the half this year in 1.50 and the 10 mile in 1.24. According to McMillian i should be able to get sub 4 no bother but i know thats a bit ambitious!! Im thinking of running 9min miles but scared of burning out. my average pace for the half was 8.20 and i felt good throughout. I've been aiming to train 5 days a week but sometimes only doing 4 days due to work/kids/husbands shifts. Thanks!

If you can hold 8:20 pace and feel comfortable for a half then 9:00 should be no problem to you. Even 9:05 pace should still get you under 4hrs allowing for the extra distance you will run on the day
If you really want sub 4 then you should just go for it.

Joleigh

ewc78 wrote: »

If you can hold 8:20 pace and feel comfortable for a half then 9:00 should be no problem to you. Even 9:05 pace should still get you under 4hrs allowing for the extra distance you will run on the day
If you really want sub 4 then you should just go for it.

Thanks for telling me what I wanted to hear I'll be happy to finish strong and beat my PB of 4.19, but under 4 would be a dream come true!!

RayCun

Joleigh wrote: »

I did the half this year in 1.50 and the 10 mile in 1.24.

Honestly, I don't think either of those times suggests a sub 4 marathon

ariana`

OOnegative wrote: »

Go out with the 4.10 pacers and take it conservative, from what I’ve been reading and heard many leave there marathon result behind them over first 7-8 miles in DCM by pushing the pace to much, if you have something left in reserve push on at 20 miles and run a 4.06/7.

I think this is good advice. Or forget the pacers and pace yourself - aim to run the first half in 2:01-2:02 and run a negative split for sub 4. The first 7 miles are the toughest and if you take these too hard you will pay later. If i were you i'd be looking to run the first 7 miles at 9:20 min/m. Don't go through 10k any faster than 58 mins. You have a few faster miles then 8-10 and once you hit half-way it's all reasonably flat and if you're feeling good you will easily clock a negative split and dip under 4.

Casey78

Joleigh wrote: »

Im a bit late asking this so any help is appreciated! I cant decide what pacers to go with. Its my 3rd DCM. First one was 4.38. Second one was 4.19 (in 2014). I did the half this year in 1.50 and the 10 mile in 1.24. According to McMillian i should be able to get sub 4 no bother but i know thats a bit ambitious!! Im thinking of running 9min miles but scared of burning out. my average pace for the half was 8.20 and i felt good throughout. I've been aiming to train 5 days a week but sometimes only doing 4 days due to work/kids/husbands shifts. Thanks!

Go with the 4hr pacers but hang back on the hills and catch up on the downhills. If you're feeling good at half way (which you should be) then start upping pace to 9:00min/miles.
It's like this...would you rather try and fail or not try at all?

Joleigh

ariana` wrote: »

I think this is good advice. Or forget the pacers and pace yourself - aim to run the first half in 2:01-2:02 and run a negative split for sub 4. The first 7 miles are the toughest and if you take these too hard you will pay later. If i were you i'd be looking to run the first 7 miles at 9:20 min/m. Don't go through 10k any faster than 58 mins. You have a few faster miles then 8-10 and once you hit half-way it's all reasonably flat and if you're feeling good you will easily clock a negative split and dip under 4.

Thanks. Negative split always seems impossible to me because no matter how easy I take it in the first half, the last 6 miles of a marathon are like no mans land, you just never know how you are going to feel on the day and being able to run faster in those last miles seems impossible! I was hoping to run even splits allowing for a bit of slowing at the end. I know im over thinking it now! I took 8mins off my half pb this year so if i take at least that off the marathon it should bring me in around 4.10 all going well. Sub 4 will have to wait till next year

chris85

RayCun wrote: »

Joleigh wrote: »

I did the half this year in 1.50 and the 10 mile in 1.24.  

Honestly, I don't think either of those times suggests a sub 4 marathon

How so? I would think they are very much in the realm of a 4 hour marathon. There are a lot more factors involved but solely based on these it would not rule out a sub 4 marathon.

ewc78

Joleigh wrote: »

Thanks for telling me what I wanted to hear I'll be happy to finish strong and beat my PB of 4.19, but under 4 would be a dream come true!!

You'll beat 4:19 no bother.You will know yourself how you feel as you are running it,if you really want sub 4hr go for it.
Take the advice of starting off a little slower but keeping the 4hr pacers in sight then once past half way make your decision.

Like someone else said above though,I'd rather go for it and not get it than not go for it at all.
Best of luck whatever you do and most of all enjoy it.

ariana`

Joleigh wrote: »

Thanks. Negative split always seems impossible to me because no matter how easy I take it in the first half, the last 6 miles of a marathon are like no mans land, you just never know how you are going to feel on the day and being able to run faster in those last miles seems impossible! I was hoping to run even splits allowing for a bit of slowing at the end. I know im over thinking it now! I took 8mins off my half pb this year so if i take at least that off the marathon it should bring me in around 4.10 all going well. Sub 4 will have to wait till next year

This article may interest you - Dublin really is set up for a negative split.

You don't need to wait til the last 6 to speed up either, it's a gradual thing. At 7 miles you've reached the highest point of the course so get to there conservatively but then miles 8, 9, 10 are quicker miles. From half-way to 30k you should be feeling good if you've paced the early miles right and then it's just about trying to maintain that pace from 30k - finish.

smashiner

ariana` wrote: »

This article may interest you - Dublin really is set up for a negative split.

You don't need to wait til the last 6 to speed up either, it's a gradual thing. At 7 miles you've reached the highest point of the course so get to there conservatively but then miles 8, 9, 10 are quicker miles. From half-way to 30k you should be feeling good if you've paced the early miles right and then it's just about trying to maintain that pace from 30k - finish.

Great article ariana,
I did a 10K prepp last weekend and I did it in 57 minutes, and I got really annoyed at myself for going too fast.....never thought that I would write those words in the same sentence .

An experienced marathon runner said to me recently 'at the start if you think that you are going too fast....slow down.....if you think that you are going too slow....slow down!!'

It's all about hitting 10K at 58/59 minutes for me....not the flipping 57 that I did last Sunday. I had my last physio visit last night (slightly tight hamstring/maranoia) and I am now 'ready' for this!

I am going out with the 3:50 pacers for 100M and I am gonna have a good go at a negative split Sub 4 and if it goes well, then great, if not then a semi comfortable 4:08 will also do (10 minute PB).

Going to burn my Asics on Sunday afternoon.....

Murph_D

ariana` wrote: »

I think this is good advice. Or forget the pacers and pace yourself - aim to run the first half in 2:01-2:02 and run a negative split for sub 4. The first 7 miles are the toughest and if you take these too hard you will pay later. If i were you i'd be looking to run the first 7 miles at 9:20 min/m. Don't go through 10k any faster than 58 mins. You have a few faster miles then 8-10 and once you hit half-way it's all reasonably flat and if you're feeling good you will easily clock a negative split and dip under 4.

This is all good planning, but just be prepared for the mental fortitude needed to switch up a gear after you’ve ‘settled’ into that opening pace. Even if effort levels are slightly easier after the opening climb, it can still be difficult to kick in to that faster pace when the time comes to push on from mile 8. That was my experience anyway in 2016, when I attempted a variable pace strategy, and I never really got up to the required pace for the second half of the race so still ended up with a negative split. Planning to neg split is one thing. Achieving it is another.

Hedgehoggy

Murph_D wrote: »

This is all good planning, but just be prepared for the mental fortitude needed to switch up a gear after you’ve ‘settled’ into that opening pace. Even if effort levels are slightly easier after the opening climb, it can still be difficult to kick in to that faster pace when the time comes to push on from mile 8. That was my experience anyway in 2016, when I attempted a variable pace strategy, and I never really got up to the required pace for the second half of the race so still ended up with a negative split. Planning to neg split is one thing. Achieving it is another.

This is actually something that I'm worried about - Will I be able to pick up the pace appropriately - I'm not sure I have enough experience for effectively executing a variable pace strategy

Murph_D

Hedgehoggy wrote: »

This is actually something that I'm worried about - Will I be able to pick up the pace appropriately - I'm not sure I have enough experience for effectively executing a variable pace strategy

That’s one reason why variable pace long runs are very useful for marathon improvers. You may have done some of these already, just by matching your LR effort to the terrain. It’s the same thing really. Don’t lose sleep over it, just be mindful of what you’re doing on the day!

eyrie

Murph_D wrote: »

This is all good planning, but just be prepared for the mental fortitude needed to switch up a gear after you’ve ‘settled’ into that opening pace. Even if effort levels are slightly easier after the opening climb, it can still be difficult to kick in to that faster pace when the time comes to push on from mile 8. That was my experience anyway in 2016, when I attempted a variable pace strategy, and I never really got up to the required pace for the second half of the race so still ended up with a negative split. Planning to neg split is one thing. Achieving it is another.

I've been wondering about this too. Clearly several people (including our wonderful mentors!) have managed this well and had great experiences, but much of the general advice/data I've come across on marathons suggests that a negative split is very hard to achieve, and a lot of the advice seems to be to aim for an even split at best. I still think I'm going to give it a go, and stick with slow start/hope to get faster later, but I am kind of hoping it doesn't just end up as slow start, slow middle, slow finish... :eek: