The Sub 4 Support Thread

Hedgehoggy

Kellygirl wrote: »

I’m going well. Changed my plan and signed up with a coach for a personalized plan. I’ve said sub 4:10 for now and will see how I’m going. Running the Killarney HM on Saturday but as a training run. Will be happy to do it at a consistent 9 min mile.

Good luck with the race. Will be interested in hearing your experiences of a personalised plan

Tonight was 10x 400m @3-5k pace (step back version of week 4). Did most in a housing state and a little incline dented the pace a bit. Generally only notice tiredness when I sit down at home. Looking forward to 10 miles with 6MP on Sunday. Sleep's been a bit iffy lately.

Weeks seem to be flying by.

Was also planning on a step back week and did the 10x400m as had a weekend down home scheduled in and would be easier to manage a 10miler - but weekend has been pushed back to next week :rolleyes: thinking Ill hybridize the two weeks and go ahead with 18m LSR this weekend and next week combine the progressing session with the 10m

Huzzah!

ariana` wrote: »

Wow, I have to admit reading these posts is a real eye opener. Everyone is doing fairly serious long runs with lots of mp miles and sessions. 4:10 is a more realistic target for me i'd have thought but reading this i'm seriously doubting even 4:10 off the back of the training i'm doing. My plan (grads) has 2hrs easy this weekend - at my pace off the calculator (if i stick to it) that would be 11.25 miles... I was planning to add on 15-30 minutes and make it 13-14 miles but 13 miles easy still doesn't really cut it compared to the super training going on here :eek: Best of luck all, I'll be back in a few years :pac:

Don't be so hard on yourself. There's more than one way to skin a cat, as they say.

judeboy101

lsr 22miles done taper time begins. Couldn't go my usual route so that threw my plans out the window. Ended up running it @9:55 per mile. Ran a few sub 9mins and a few 10:20's and one 11 minute (level crossing damn trains). I felt okish at end ran last 2 miles sub 9:30 but need to work on my food intake, def didn't have enuf fuel, prob didn't help that I started running at 5:45am. 3weeks to longford

The Black Oil

Did the 10 miles: 2 w/u, 6 @MP, 2 c/d this morning. That's week 4 done. Felt good. Could also look at food intake, though.

ewc78

Just back from a 16.5 mile run. Had to do the .5 to make it 40miles for the week!
Found the last 3 miles very tough, truth be told I probably went too fast for a LSR. Averaged 9:34/mile for the entire run.

Murph_D

That is quite pacey but if you have the miles in your legs you'll probably get away with it. Any particular reason for going faster than you would have liked?

ewc78

Murph_D wrote: »

That is quite pacey but if you have the miles in your legs you'll probably get away with it. Any particular reason for going faster than you would have liked?

I find it hard to run any slower truth be told. I've tried running 10min/miles but I feel more comfortable going at a 9:40ish pace. Keeping an eye on my heart rate that keeps me around the high end of Zone 2 creeping into Zone 3. That's the longest run I've done since DCM'16 so probably why I found the last few miles tough.

judeboy101

ewc78 wrote: »

Just back from a 16.5 mile run. Had to do the .5 to make it 40miles for the week!
Found the last 3 miles very tough, truth be told I probably went too fast for a LSR. Averaged 9:34/mile for the entire run.

Where was your fastest miles? First few or middle few? How much a drop in pace was your last 3 miles?

RedRunner

Hi All. Following this thread with great interest. Ran DCM last year in 4:13 after an injury hit training block. Previously have only gone sub 4 once back in 2014 when I ran London in 3:52. Am hoping to get under 4 hrs this yr for only 2nd time and 5th marathon and if at all possible challenge that pb, but that will depend on how training goes.

Incidentally, following the meno plan back in 2014 got me that marathon PB. I think its too aggressive for where I'm at right now in terms of mileage done so I'm loosely following the advertised SSE airtricity advanced plan as per their FB page. Did 14 miles on Sunday last and felt pretty comfortable at avg 9:03/mi. Probably too fast, I know!

Some good discussions and advice on here already so looking forward to following and contributing where I can, albeit a bit late in the day

judeboy101

Help!!, massive blister(1" wide) on heel, massive. After 22milr last week I didn't run hoping it would go away and it did decrease and become "flaccid" (no jokes plz). Ran 9milr this morn @mp found it very easy. I had Vaseline on area and good socks but it has filled back out. Iv no pain when running and 20 days til marathon. So do I

1: Keep running my tapering plan as is
2: Take week off and hope it goes
3: Go rambo on it with a needle

Hedgehoggy

judeboy101 wrote: »

Help!!, massive blister(1" wide) on heel, massive. After 22milr last week I didn't run hoping it would go away and it did decrease and become "flaccid" (no jokes plz). Ran 9milr this morn @mp found it very easy. I had Vaseline on area and good socks but it has filled back out. Iv no pain when running and 20 days til marathon. So do I

1: Keep running my tapering plan as is
2: Take week off and hope it goes
3: Go rambo on it with a needle

Wouldnt like to advise as I have no experience of this - but it's good that there is no pain anyway. Hope it's sorted before the big day! Looking forward to hearing how your race goes.

Hi All. Following this thread with great interest. Ran DCM last year in 4:13 after an injury hit training block. Previously have only gone sub 4 once back in 2014 when I ran London in 3:52. Am hoping to get under 4 hrs this yr for only 2nd time and 5th marathon and if at all possible challenge that pb, but that will depend on how training goes.

Incidentally, following the meno plan back in 2014 got me that marathon PB. I think its too aggressive for where I'm at right now in terms of mileage done so I'm loosely following the advertised SSE airtricity advanced plan as per their FB page. Did 14 miles on Sunday last and felt pretty comfortable at avg 9:03/mi. Probably too fast, I know!

Some good discussions and advice on here already so looking forward to following and contributing where I can, albeit a bit late in the day

Good to hear more positive outcomes from following meno plan. Enjoying the plan so far - funnily enough I also did my LSR at a faster than intended pace this weekend - pace was 9.02 - hadnt meant to go that fast but decided to set out and not monitor time. Luckily it hasnt impacted me re. soreness or injury and has given me confidence that I'm making progress - I will be trying to keep my LSRs a bit slower though (until the MP miles kick in later!)

ewc78

judeboy101 wrote: »

Where was your fastest miles? First few or middle few? How much a drop in pace was your last 3 miles?

Only just seeing this now. The last 3 or 4 miles were actually my fastest miles.

Murph_D

RedRunner wrote: »

Hi All. Following this thread with great interest. Ran DCM last year in 4:13 after an injury hit training block. Previously have only gone sub 4 once back in 2014 when I ran London in 3:52. Am hoping to get under 4 hrs this yr for only 2nd time and 5th marathon and if at all possible challenge that pb, but that will depend on how training goes.

Incidentally, following the meno plan back in 2014 got me that marathon PB. I think its too aggressive for where I'm at right now in terms of mileage done so I'm loosely following the advertised SSE airtricity advanced plan as per their FB page. Did 14 miles on Sunday last and felt pretty comfortable at avg 9:03/mi. Probably too fast, I know!

Some good discussions and advice on here already so looking forward to following and contributing where I can, albeit a bit late in the day

At this point, Robbie, all I will say is ‘careful, now’.

judeboy101

ewc78 wrote: »

Only just seeing this now. The last 3 or 4 miles were actually my fastest miles.

So a middle dip? Or random dipping of pace? Probably nothing to worry about.

ewc78

judeboy101 wrote: »

So a middle dip? Or random dipping of pace? Probably nothing to worry about.

Pace didn't dip at all just found last few miles tough as it was the longest I ran in 2 years

ewc78

First bad run of the plan this morning. 20mins Easy,20mins Steady, 20mins MP, 10mins HMP, 20mins Cool down.

Kind of knew early on I didn't feel right. Got to the end of the MP section but just wasn't able for the 10mins at HMP. Heart rate was near max at the end of the MP section. Just did the warm down after that and walked for the most part of that.
Bit disappointed with how it went.

Murph_D

ewc78 wrote: »

First bad run of the plan this morning. 20mins Easy,20mins Steady, 20mins MP, 10mins HMP, 20mins Cool down.

Kind of knew early on I didn't feel right. Got to the end of the MP section but just wasn't able for the 10mins at HMP. Heart rate was near max at the end of the MP section. Just did the warm down after that and walked for the most part of that.
Bit disappointed with how it went.

Don’t be disheartened. That’s a tougher run than it looks. I still remember the first time I did it - screwed up too but the plan worked in the end! Good to know WHY it went pear shaped all the same. Heat? Tiredness? Any thoughts?

ewc78

Murph_D wrote: »

Don’t be disheartened. That’s a tougher run than it looks. I still remember the first time I did it - screwed up too but the plan worked in the end! Good to know WHY it went pear shaped all the same. Heat? Tiredness? Any thoughts?

I've 3 boys under 6 so tiredness always plays a part as I'm always tired!
Maybe I'm still feeling it in the legs after the long run Sunday.
Just a quick question. I have to do my long run on Saturday morning this week as I won't be able do it Sunday. Should I do an easy run tomorrow or rest for the long run bearing in mind today's run didn't go well.

ariana`

ewc78 wrote: »

First bad run of the plan this morning. 20mins Easy,20mins Steady, 20mins MP, 10mins HMP, 20mins Cool down.

Kind of knew early on I didn't feel right. Got to the end of the MP section but just wasn't able for the 10mins at HMP. Heart rate was near max at the end of the MP section. Just did the warm down after that and walked for the most part of that.
Bit disappointed with how it went.

I'm on a different plan but those progression runs are harder than they look on paper! I tried one a few weeks back, disaster, it's hard to change gears on tired legs.

Kellygirl

ewc78 wrote: »

First bad run of the plan this morning. 20mins Easy,20mins Steady, 20mins MP, 10mins HMP, 20mins Cool down.

Kind of knew early on I didn't feel right. Got to the end of the MP section but just wasn't able for the 10mins at HMP. Heart rate was near max at the end of the MP section. Just did the warm down after that and walked for the most part of that.
Bit disappointed with how it went.

Try not to be too down about it. I’d a bad run last Monday week at 6am and had to stop after 4 miles. Two nights later I went out and did a longer and faster run and no bother. Humidity had dropped, I chose a different route, eaten during the day and confidence back again then. Everyone has bad runs every now and then. Give yourself a rest and just do an easy run tomorrow and do your long run then Saturday.

RedRunner

ewc78 wrote: »

I've 3 boys under 6 so tiredness always plays a part as I'm always tired!
Maybe I'm still feeling it in the legs after the long run Sunday.
Just a quick question. I have to do my long run on Saturday morning this week as I won't be able do it Sunday. Should I do an easy run tomorrow or rest for the long run bearing in mind today's run didn't go well.

I would just say listen to the body. If you feel you'd benefit from a days rest, take it. The most important run for rest of the week is the long run.

If you feel ok though then I'd do an easy run tomorrow and rest up Sunday after your long run on Saturday.

I'm doing my long run tonight because I'm away at weekend and know i'll not get it done on Sunday. I'll rest tomorrow though and try get shorter ones in on Sat and Sun.

ewc78

RedRunner wrote: »

I would just say listen to the body. If you feel you'd benefit from a days rest, take it. The most important run for rest of the week is the long run.

If you feel ok though then I'd do an easy run tomorrow and rest up Sunday after your long run on Saturday.

I'm doing my long run tonight because I'm away at weekend and know i'll not get it done on Sunday. I'll rest tomorrow though and try get shorter ones in on Sat and Sun.

If I don't run tomorrow I'll be down on the suggested milage for the week, that's the only reason I'd consider running. I feel I'd probably benefit from the rest more though.

RedRunner

ewc78 wrote: »

If I don't run tomorrow I'll be down on the suggested milage for the week, that's the only reason I'd consider running. I feel I'd probably benefit from the rest more though.

There's your answer so.:) Wouldn't worry too much about a missed run in the grander scheme of things. Better to have a strong one on Saturday than hit your mileage target but slog it out.

Rest is just as important.

cullenswood

ewc78 wrote: »

If I don't run tomorrow I'll be down on the suggested milage for the week, that's the only reason I'd consider running. I feel I'd probably benefit from the rest more though.

I had to miss some mileage from last weeks meno plan too, and rejig the days around this week. It means I am about 15km down in total, but its still over 12 weeks away from the marathon. Its not going to make/break your marathon at this stage, so if you think you need the rest I'd suggest take it now. The long runs are the most important part.

ariana`

RedRunner wrote: »

There's your answer so.:) Wouldn't worry too much about a missed run in the grander scheme of things. Better to have a strong one on Saturday than hit your mileage target but slog it out.

Rest is just as important.

Agree with this, an extra rest day in lieu of a few miles one week won't do any harm, it's important to listen to your body too. If it's happening every week then i'd question the plan you're following or the paces of your runs and whether one or both are too ambitious.

The Black Oil

ewc78 wrote: »

First bad run of the plan this morning. 20mins Easy,20mins Steady, 20mins MP, 10mins HMP, 20mins Cool down.

I did this after work yesterday. Very much enjoyed it and hit the paces I wanted to. Think it's the furthest mid-week run I've done, so far. Knackered when I sat down at home...felt that alright.

Body felt a little rusty as I was getting ready for the recovery spin today. Felt fine once I got going, though.

judeboy101

18milr lsr @9:45 pace. It's first run in nearly a week off recovering from mother of all blisters. Bad mistake ran it well but sore all over after. On good note my new energy management regime seems to be working as I Maintained the pace constantly +/- 5 seconds. Threw in a 8:50 on last mile just for kicks. 2 weeks to go , realistically I have a slim chance of sub 4 but I'm confident of a sub 4:10

ariana`

judeboy101 wrote: »

18milr lsr @9:45 pace. It's first run in nearly a week off recovering from mother of all blisters. Bad mistake ran it well but sore all over after. On good note my new energy management regime seems to be working as I Maintained the pace constantly +/- 5 seconds. Threw in a 8:50 on last mile just for kicks. 2 weeks to go , realistically I have a slim chance of sub 4 but I'm confident of a sub 4:10

2 weeks to go, i assume that is your last very long run now? Is it Longford you are doing? Best of luck, going on that run it sounds like you are in a good place.

judeboy101

ariana` wrote: »

judeboy101 wrote: »

18milr lsr @9:45 pace. It's first run in nearly a week off recovering from mother of all blisters. Bad mistake ran it well but sore all over after. On good note my new energy management regime seems to be working as I Maintained the pace constantly +/- 5 seconds. Threw in a 8:50 on last mile just for kicks. 2 weeks to go , realistically I have a slim chance of sub 4 but I'm confident of a sub 4:10

2 weeks to go, i assume that is your last very long run now? Is it Longford you are doing? Best of luck, going on that run it sounds like you are in a good place.

Yep 12milr this week slow pace and plenty of hill, mix temp low mileage stuff. I'm using tailwind and wagon wheels for fuel. Half wheel at 6,12,18,20 miles constant sipping of tailwind mixture plus I've made up 1shot top up tailwinds using giant straws from Tiger. Each holds 100cals of powder. It won't b lack of energy that gets me this time , lol.

ariana`

judeboy101 wrote: »

Yep 12milr this week slow pace and plenty of hill, mix temp low mileage stuff. I'm using tailwind and wagon wheels for fuel. Half wheel at 6,12,18,20 miles constant sipping of tailwind mixture plus I've made up 1shot top up tailwinds using giant straws from Tiger. Each holds 100cals of powder. It won't b lack of energy that gets me this time , lol.

How do you stop the chocolate on the wagon wheels from melting? And how do you find eating - actually chewing while running?

I wasn't very successful with gels last year - they were ok on my stomach but my hands were so sticky and sweaty that i struggled to even open them and when i did i'd spill some each time, in the end i couldn't face even trying. I think i need a change this year.

I remember someone handed me a very small mini-snickers type of thing around 15m and it was divine, just really hit the spot but i'm not sure about carrying chocolate. And that was just 1, a few of them mightn't work so well either.

judeboy101

ariana` wrote: »

judeboy101 wrote: »

Yep 12milr this week slow pace and plenty of hill, mix temp low mileage stuff. I'm using tailwind and wagon wheels for fuel. Half wheel at 6,12,18,20 miles constant sipping of tailwind mixture plus I've made up 1shot top up tailwinds using giant straws from Tiger. Each holds 100cals of powder. It won't b lack of energy that gets me this time , lol.

How do you stop the chocolate on the wagon wheels from melting? And how do you find eating - actually chewing while running?

I wasn't very successful with gels last year - they were ok on my stomach but my hands were so sticky and sweaty that i struggled to even open them and when i did i'd spill some each time, in the end i couldn't face even trying. I think i need a change this year.

I remember someone handed me a very small mini-snickers type of thing around 15m and it was divine, just really hit the spot but i'm not sure about carrying chocolate. And that was just 1, a few of them mightn't work so well either.

I freeze it before run it turns crumbly and melts away on tongue. Tailwind is powder and u mix with ur drink so it is so easy on ur tummy. I run with bottle and that has 400cals in it, I carry 7-10 straws each 100cals. It takes just seconds to rip off top straw dump into empty bottle and refill at water station, or have someone give u new preloaded bottle at 6,12,18 if u hv someone supporting u on the day.

Murph_D

judeboy101 wrote: »

run with bottle and that has 400cals in it, I carry 7-10 straws each 100cals. It takes just seconds to rip off top straw dump into empty bottle and refill at water station, or have someone give u new preloaded bottle at 6,12,18 if u hv someone supporting u on the day.

Do you mean you are mixing drinks on the run? To be honest, this seems an overcomplicated way to get drinks for a 4-hour marathon. I’m a big believer in the ‘Keep It Simple’ rule. But whatever works!

judeboy101

Murph_D wrote: »

judeboy101 wrote: »

run with bottle and that has 400cals in it, I carry 7-10 straws each 100cals. It takes just seconds to rip off top straw dump into empty bottle and refill at water station, or have someone give u new preloaded bottle at 6,12,18 if u hv someone supporting u on the day.

Do you mean you are mixing drinks on the run? To be honest, this seems an overcomplicated way to get drinks for a 4-hour marathon. I’m a big believer in the ‘Keep It Simple’ rule. But whatever works!

Takes about the same amount of time as using a gel. I just do it before I run by a water station so that I fill my powder filled bottle with h2o and away I go.

Kellygirl

judeboy101 wrote: »

Takes about the same amount of time as using a gel. I just do it before I run by a water station so that I fill my powder filled bottle with h2o and away I go.

Why not just add the powder to the bottle they hand you at the water station?

judeboy101

Kellygirl wrote: »

judeboy101 wrote: »

Takes about the same amount of time as using a gel. I just do it before I run by a water station so that I fill my powder filled bottle with h2o and away I go.

Why not just add the powder to the bottle they hand you at the water station?

My bottle bigger plus easier to add powder to empty bottle :-)

ariana`

I'm afraid it seems over complicated to me too. By filling a bottle at a water station do you mean you pour water from one (or multiple) bottle(s) handed to you into a bottle you carry yourself? I'd probably spill half it

Kellygirl

A friend of mine uses something like Tailwind and carries it diluted but really concentrated in a 250ml bottle. When she takes water at each station she takes a gulp from her concentrated bottle and then washes it down with the water. Not sure if that’s an option?

Or a backpack with it already diluted - I used train with one and never bothered me.

judeboy101

Kellygirl wrote: »

A friend of mine uses something like Tailwind and carries it diluted but really concentrated in a 250ml bottle. When she takes water at each station she takes a gulp from her concentrated bottle and then washes it down with the water. Not sure if that’s an option?

Or a backpack with it already diluted - I used train with one and never bothered me.

Belts and backpacks iv tried and never felt comfortable, I might try other method @dub thanks for tip.

ewc78

So following on from my poor Wednesday workout last week I also had a very poor LSR on Saturday only managing 11miles. Felt really unwell and dizzy and just had to stop.
I didn't run again until yesterday morning and felt better and I did the Wednesday workout this morning and nailed it. This week was 2x4 miles at MP(plus a few miles warm up/down). Felt great for the whole workout, and would nearly have done another 4miles at MP if I had of had the time.
I do think I had a bit of a bug last week so that could have played a part. Glad to be back on track for now though.

judeboy101

ewc78 wrote: »

So following on from my poor Wednesday workout last week I also had a very poor LSR on Saturday only managing 11miles. Felt really unwell and dizzy and just had to stop.
I didn't run again until yesterday morning and felt better and I did the Wednesday workout this morning and nailed it. This week was 2x4 miles at MP(plus a few miles warm up/down). Felt great for the whole workout, and would nearly have done another 4miles at MP if I had of had the time.
I do think I had a bit of a bug last week so that could have played a part. Glad to be back on track for now though.

Think I read somewhere that long distance running actually decreases immunity and marathons reck ur kidneys

RayCun

judeboy101 wrote: »

Think I read somewhere that long distance running actually decreases immunity and marathons reck ur kidneys

Taking painkillers to run can wreck your kidneys. Don't do it.

Exercise without sufficient recovery will wear you down, overtraining is real and a serious problem. But if you don't overdo it you'll be fine.

judeboy101

"Taking painkillers to run can wreck your kidneys. Don't do it"


Jesus, is that a thing?

RayCun

Yes, people do it.

It's a terrible idea.

judeboy101

12 mile lsr @10min pace. Felt very very easy but awful humidity. I'm in good shape no strains or niggles this time nxt week cross fingers.

The Black Oil

Last week's 18 miles: 3:07:58 at 10:26.
This past Sunday's 18 miles: 3:08:16 at 10:27.

Throw 20 minutes onto that and I'm probably looking at 3:30 or so for 20 miles. Add another 20 on and it'll be 3:50 ish for the 22 miler later in the plan. How's that re time on your feet, etc? iirc, some of ye aren't doing the 22. Are you going to make up the mileage on other easy days? Not too worried as it's several weeks away yet.

ewc78

I think 3hrs 50mins sounds like an awful long time on your feet in training. I certainly won't be doing a 22mile lsr.
Reckon most I'll go is 3hrs which should be about 19miles with the pace I've been running my LSRs which is about 9:40min/miles. Probably do that 3 or 4 times in the coming weeks.
Each to their own, but I get far more confidence that I can go sub 4 by the Marathon Pace runs I do and not by the distance I run on the LSR day.
Then I've done 2 Marathons so I know I can go the distance.
I've read on other sites that say anything over 3hrs in training is unnecessary, especially at our level.
I'm far from an expert though.

RedRunner

14.5 miles yesterday with 13 of those at pmp.(Schoolboy error, did the run with a faster runner ( she is targeting 3:30-3:40). Good test but an unintentional one.
I've an enflamed achilles at the moment too so that is a bit sore now(although that is not a result of this run, just a cumulative issue I've being trying to deal with)

Putting it up here as it's good to show the bad as well as the good, the bad decisions as well as the good decisions....it's all part of the process I guess.

Splits  Avg Moving Pace
1 08:59
2 08:43
3 08:53
4 09:02
5 08:57
6 08:47
7 08:58
8 08:56
9 08:54
10 08:54
11 09:05
12 08:50
13 08:52
14 09:18
15 09:10

chickey2

I just had a look back at my longest run on the meno plan and I did 34km (just over 21miles) in 3:30. I ran DCM in 3:58 a few weeks later.

RedRunner

ewc78 wrote: »

I think 3hrs 50mins sounds like an awful long time on your feet in training. I certainly won't be doing a 22mile lsr.
Reckon most I'll go is 3hrs which should be about 19miles with the pace I've been running my LSRs which is about 9:40min/miles. Probably do that 3 or 4 times in the coming weeks.
Each to their own, but I get far more confidence that I can go sub 4 by the Marathon Pace runs I do and not by the distance I run on the LSR day.
Then I've done 2 Marathons so I know I can go the distance.
I've read on other sites that say anything over 3hrs in training is unnecessary, especially at our level.
I'm far from an expert though.

I would agree with this. I'd avoid anything over 3hrs 30 mins , but again wouldnt claim to be an expert.

Like chickey2 when i did meno plan in 2014 on way to 3:52 (which is still my pb) my longest run was 22 miles w 10Mp in 3hrs 16mins. Only did one of those.

The Black Oil

I've been fortunate enough to have a positive mental attitude since before starting the plan. Assuming that sticks around until Oct I think it'll help me as much as the actual training. Could look at going close to 10 min/mi on some of those longer runs. The second 22 miler in the meno plan has a mixture of stuff which I'd like to try. But, if putting a line through the first 22 due to time on feet is advisable I wouldn't be worried about the race itself. Having the Weds sessions in the bag helps too.