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The Sub 4 Support Thread

ewc78

Long time lurker but first time poster here.As the title suggests. A thread for anyone trying to break 4hrs in the Marathon.
I've had two rather unsuccessful Marathons already. Dublin 2014 and Dublin 2016.
I had no business running Dublin 2014 as I'd only finished couch to 5k at the start of that year after never running before. I got roped into it by a charity that I'm involved in and felt I couldn't say no, but I really wasn't ready for it.
I struggled around in just under 5hrs and didn't enjoy any of it.
2016 was a bit better and I was better prepared and my main goal was to enjoy it. I hadn't much of a base going into Marathon training but I did all the training and came home in 4:25 but more importantly for me anyway was I enjoyed the whole experience from start to finish.
I decided there and then at the finish line though that I wasn't going to do or train for another Marathon until I had a decent base behind me. The next Marathon I did I wanted to give it a proper go.
Since the end of Dublin 2016 I've kept a consistent enough milage of between 25-30miles a week. With various tempo runs and intervals thrown in and a long run when I can.
I haven't done any races since apart from park runs( which I know aren't races) but as a measure of progress my 5km time has dropped from 26 minutes and a bit down to 22:04.
My aim is obviously to go sub 4 in the Dublin Marathon this October.
I haven't decided on a training plan yet but have been reading Hanson's Marathon method book recently.
I realise I'm not a fast runner by any stretch of the imagination but with being almost 40, and alot of my time taken up with being self employed and having 3 kids under the age of 6 I feel a sub 4hr would be a good achievement for me personally.
Would be interested in hearing from anyone else hoping to go Sub 4hr for the first time also.
Doesn't have to be just the Dublin Marathon either.
Thanks.

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Kellygirl

Murph_D wrote: »

No, because you’ll have trained properly by building endurance through building up long runs at a relatively slow pace. Runners who do their long runs at marathon pace invariably blow up on the day and have a very difficult second half. By all means do some of your running at marathon pace, even done if the long run miles, but the majority must be slower. The novice thread would be a good place for you to pick up this kind is training advice, if you’re not in there already.

I have to admit I’m a bit confused or tied up in knots over the running your LSR slow. Last year when I didn’t know any better I ran all my long runs fairly close to race pace (about 30 seconds per kilometer slower maybe) and there were a few mp miles in there more by accident than anything else. I then proceeded to breeze round DCM in 4:20. This year for Cork I followed what I’d read over and over again about slowing down and did my speed work twice a week but not in my long run. I couldn’t sustain the pace on the day after mile 16 and had to majorly slow down. I blamed the heat but prob not just that.

There was a great discussion on my log about it last week and the jist of it was to include pace miles in my long run so I’m going to do that for DCM and build up the miles over the weeks.

But I’m kind of confused really as all I keep hearing is slow down in the pace runs and somehow missed the fact that I should be including pace miles.

Does everybody include pace miles?

Murph_D

theyoungchap wrote: »

Yeah I've seen that, but wouldn't it be harder to run at an increased pace on the day?

No, because you’ll have trained properly by building endurance through building up long runs at a relatively slow pace. Runners who do their long runs at marathon pace invariably blow up on the day and have a very difficult second half. By all means do some of your running at marathon pace, including some of the long run miles, but the majority must be slower. The novice thread would be a good place for you to pick up this kind of training advice, if you’re not in there already.

Butterbeans

theyoungchap wrote: »

At what pace do people feel I should be doing my LSR for a 4-hour marathon? 9 minutes?

You should be running your lsr's at between 1 to 2 minutes slower than race pace. So for sub 4hr marathon, we'll sat 3hr59min59sec for arguments sake, you'd be running 9min10sec miles approx. So you should be running your lsr's at at least 10min10sec miles. That may feel slow for you but if you run them at 9min pace you're not running them slow, you're running them faster than race pace

theyoungchap

RayCun wrote: »

About 10 minute miles.

9 minutes is marathon pace

Yeah I've seen that, but wouldn't it be harder to run at an increased pace on the day?

RayCun

theyoungchap wrote: »

At what pace do people feel I should be doing my LSR for a 4-hour marathon? 9 minutes?

About 10 minute miles.

9 minutes is marathon pace

theyoungchap

At what pace do people feel I should be doing my LSR for a 4-hour marathon? 9 minutes?

ISOP

Murph_D wrote: »

ISOP wrote: »

Just done 4:08 in the midnight sun marathon in Norway. By no means an easy one on the day. A brutal headwind for a good part of it. Delighted in the circumstances. The sub 4 is happening this year

Sound tough. What was the training like? What time did you train for?

No specific training to be honest. I had been focussed on a ultra marathon which I took part in last week for something important to me. First time ever i considered missing a race yesterday as my feet are in a bad state (swollen and about to lose 7 toenails) I had signed up for this ages ago and decided " feck It" do it and it was a nice opportunity to see some place new. A bit of a rest now and get stuck into a proper bit of specific training

Murph_D

ISOP wrote: »

Just done 4:08 in the midnight sun marathon in Norway. By no means an easy one on the day. A brutal headwind for a good part of it. Delighted in the circumstances. The sub 4 is happening this year

Sound tough. What was the training like? What time did you train for?

ISOP

Just done 4:08 in the midnight sun marathon in Norway. By no means an easy one on the day. A brutal headwind for a good part of it. Delighted in the circumstances. The sub 4 is happening this year

Pomplamousse

I will also be very disappointed if I don't go sub-4. Failed badly in my first attempt 2 years ago and while lots of people were congratulating me on completing the marathon, all I felt was disappointment.
Like ewc78, I don't think I will do many or any more marathons after DCM 2018. I prefer half marathons. Hence really wanting it this time around, so I can put that demon to rest.
If I don't get sub-4 this time, I'll probably feel obliged to keep trying until I get it:o

Hedgehoggy

theyoungchap wrote: »

Put your feet up dude, rest is important!!

I am about to start the training for my 3rd Dublin marathon. I have yet to break 4hrs, I missed out on it by 1 minute in 2012, but I am absolutely 100% determined to break it this year. I am however 6 years older, but also 6 years wiser and the heavy boozy days of circa 2012 are now over.

Good luck to all running!

Am sorry I didn't see this advice before heading out. Found today tough.... But when I say long run it's probably not what others on here would call long!!!

theyoungchap

Hedgehoggy wrote: »

Me too - Would be very disappointed if I didn't achieve the sub-4. Will be giving it a big push over the coming months... and on that note shortly heading out for a long run.....

Put your feet up dude, rest is important!!

I am about to start the training for my 3rd Dublin marathon. I have yet to break 4hrs, I missed out on it by 1 minute in 2012, but I am absolutely 100% determined to break it this year. I am however 6 years older, but also 6 years wiser and the heavy boozy days of circa 2012 are now over.

Good luck to all running!

Hedgehoggy

ewc78 wrote: »

Seeing as I'm the person who started the thread it goes without saying that I really want to go sub 4hr.
I don't really know how many more Marathons I'll do if any,so I want to put everything into getting sub 4 in Dublin this year.

Me too - Would be very disappointed if I didn't achieve the sub-4. Will be giving it a big push over the coming months... and on that note shortly heading out for a long run.....

ewc78

Murph_D wrote: »

I’m intrigued - how much do people on this thread really WANT to do the sub-4 thing?

It’s completely within yiz. But I think the point of this thread is to move beyond marathon plans, weather, workmates, neighbours, friends.

Sub-4 is the first milestone. Respect it and you will prevail. What happens after that is the more interesting thing.

*not the novice thread.

Seeing as I'm the person who started the thread it goes without saying that I really want to go sub 4hr.
I don't really know how many more Marathons I'll do if any,so I want to put everything into getting sub 4 in Dublin this year.

Murph_D

Rossi7 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure a few * novices this year have it within them to go sub 4, is not going sub 4 all to do with having the right marathon plan

I’m pretty sure they will too. But they will be the exceptions to the rule, judging by previous years. Don’t get me wrong - I failed myself on my debut (4:02). I don’t mean to disrespect novice marathon runners. What I am trying to get at is that the second or third time around your body knows what to expect and as long as you have trained properly - with ANY plan that hits the marathon basics, executed properly with the different types of run done at the right pace - you should be able for it, if you are reasonably fit and not too much overweight. Weather is a factor but not a big one if you have conditioned yourself properly (including getting your body ready by subjecting it to reasonably high mileage over time).

Sub-4 is a great target and a terrific milestone to achieve - especially for women, for whom it’s obviously a much greater achievement.

ariana`

Kellygirl wrote: »

There will be novices who will achieve sub 4 of course but there’s a lot of people who will underestimate the sheer distance and how their body will react. You’ll have people who will pace it incorrectly and there’s also the mental side of things. Your first marathon is a huge learning experience and what you can learn from it can set you up to really focus on a target the next time.

I second this, don't underestimate the distance, it is incomparable to any other distance. For most of us when we train for a 5k, 5m, 10k, even a HM we will have covered at least the time on our feet that the race distance will take us, for most distances we will have covered more! This is not the the case for the Full marathon (or ultras etc.) and nor should it be! The last 6 miles of a marathon are a complete unknown until D-Day! There is a huge mental challenge as well and a huge sense of occasion that can be over whelming also... Lots of factors to consider but this is all stuff we will talk about on the Novice thread over the coming weeks

ariana`

Rossi7 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure a few * novices this year have it within them to go sub 4, is not going sub 4 all to do with having the right marathon plan

I absolutely expect some of this year's novices to run sub 4 as they have in previous years and you'll quite likely be one of them

But I don't necessarily think the marathon plan makes a massive difference certainly not to novice runners (and that includes fast novice runners), most plans will follow a similar enough structure - 2-3 easy runs, 1 session (run with stuff added like marathon pace miles) and a long run.

The overall mileage and the intensity of the training will impact of course the outcome but these also need to be balanced with injury risk. Joe Bloggs down the road may have run sub 4 off 55 miles a week but if you've been running 20 mpw for the past 3 months then the jump to 55 mpw is a big injury risk.

In an ideal world if we all had coaches the overall mileage and intensity would be planned around the runner's base coming into marathon training and how much they can handle without risking injury/burn out (other considerations here such as previous injury history and age etc).

The advantage of having more miles behind you from previous marathon cycles is you can start to increase the miles and/or the intensity of the training (more MP miles, fast finish long runs etc) and that's where additional gains can be made. Or that's the hope for some of us here at least

Kellygirl

Rossi7 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure a few * novices this year have it within them to go sub 4, is not going sub 4 all to do with having the right marathon plan

There will be novices who will achieve sub 4 of course but there’s a lot of people who will underestimate the sheer distance and how their body will react. You’ll have people who will pace it incorrectly and there’s also the mental side of things. Your first marathon is a huge learning experience and what you can learn from it can set you up to really focus on a target the next time.

Rossi7

I'm pretty sure a few * novices this year have it within them to go sub 4, is not going sub 4 all to do with having the right marathon plan

Murph_D

I’m intrigued - how much do people on this thread really WANT to do the sub-4 thing?

It’s completely within yiz. But I think the point of this thread is to move beyond marathon plans, weather, workmates, neighbours, friends.

Sub-4 is the first milestone. Respect it and you will prevail. What happens after that is the more interesting thing.

*not the novice thread.

Kellygirl

ewc78 wrote: »

Oh yeah it was much cooler tonight but far from cold.

Just watching the forecast with weather warnings etc. This is what we know - we’ll all enjoy our runs the next few days

ewc78

Kellygirl wrote: »

Ha ha - I was the exact same this morning. My favorite run in ages - in the rain and quite cool compare to what it has been!

Oh yeah it was much cooler tonight but far from cold.

Kellygirl

ewc78 wrote: »

I know the good weather is great and everything but I went for a run in the wind and rain tonight and I haven't enjoyed a run as much in a long time! There was some evenings there lately it was almost impossible to run well with the heat.
Was still nice and warm tonight though.

Ha ha - I was the exact same this morning. My favorite run in ages - in the rain and quite cool compare to what it has been!

ewc78

I know the good weather is great and everything but I went for a run in the wind and rain tonight and I haven't enjoyed a run as much in a long time! There was some evenings there lately it was almost impossible to run well with the heat.
Was still nice and warm tonight though.

seanin4711

you and me both,calf strain after speed session last wednesday,rested until today went out for a very easy 7km run and pulled up after 6.5kms physio thursday,

Murph_D

Agreed - if the pace group is very large, there's certainly a lot of value in running just behind the group. You can always move up closer later on when it has thinned out (provided you're still in touching distance yourself). Everyone is different, but as suggested above, one of the huge advantages of being with - or in proximity to - the group is the opportunity to switch off and let someone else worry about splits, pace, etc. This assumes, of course, that the pacers know what they are doing, which isn't always the case! DCM always has excellent pacers however, so never an issue there.

ariana`

Murph_D wrote: »

I think if you can whizz past a pace group in the last miles for a strong finish, you probably should have gone with a faster pace group in the first place. My experience of running with pace groups - at any distance - is that I've always been hanging on for dear life in the last third of the race!

Hmm yeah good point! I went with a very conservative pace group due to an injury so i guess this made the difference as i got braver with picking the pace near the end and my last mile was my fastest mile of the race. But i still think in theory the approach should work but without letting them get as far away as i did last year but maybe i'm wrong - i'm still learning. My issue with staying with them all the way is the crowds, especially a milestone time like 4 hr which I'm sure is very very popular.

ISOP

PCX wrote: »

I have never run with a pace group for all of a race.

Do they normally aim to finish at the exact time i.e. 4h on the button or do they try to give a buffer for the people following behind i.e. 3h58m (or quicker)?

I think the aim is to come in just under, usually around 30 seconds. Only ran with a pacer group once, and really enjoyed it, even though I dropped off for a finish. It makes a big difference when all you have to do is run, without checking your watch all the time, great camaraderie too

PCX

I have never run with a pace group for all of a race.

Do they normally aim to finish at the exact time i.e. 4h on the button or do they try to give a buffer for the people following behind i.e. 3h58m (or quicker)?

Murph_D

I think if you can whizz past a pace group in the last miles for a strong finish, you probably should have gone with a faster pace group in the first place. My experience of running with pace groups - at any distance - is that I've always been hanging on for dear life in the last third of the race!