MPs quitting Labour & Conservative parties discussion thread

quokula · 18-02-2019 4:40pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

Suddenly. The last election was in 2017. Hardly can be accused of simply pretending to be Labour to get elected.

So when should they announce it? 2 months before, a week? Is there a perfect time?

You announce it during an election campaign. The people of those constituencies are unrepresented now. Even the likes of Douglas Carswell had the decency to go to the people when he switched party from Tory to UKIP.

You don't campaign in support of one party, get voted in because of that, then switch without giving your voters a chance to have their say.

The fact that it took them two years to get organised doesn't change anything - they still have 3 years more of this fixed term (yes, there might be a snap election, but nothing guarantees that) to push an agenda they weren't voted in on, and to actively campaign against the agenda they were voted in on.

A number of them were already being considered by deselection, so they've clearly decided to avoid democratic processes and steal a bunch of parliamentary seats for themselves without a mandate, so they can do as much damage as they can and get as much free publicity as they can before an actual election comes round.

oscarBravo · 18-02-2019 4:43pm

Havockk wrote: »

The alternative of potentially decade long Tory dominance? I'll have to disagree with you on that point OB.

That's a perfectly valid argument - if you subscribe to the belief that the Labour party as it currently stands can win an election.

As it is, Labour are polling well behind the Conservatives.

Think about that for a second. A flaming bag of dog turds should be polling ahead of the current Conservative party.

It's all very well saying "either we unite behind the current leadership or the Tories will win" - but the Tories are winning, which practically defies the laws of physics.

Havockk · 18-02-2019 4:47pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

That's a perfectly valid argument - if you subscribe to the belief that the Labour party as it currently stands can win an election.

As it is, Labour are polling well behind the Conservatives.

Think about that for a second. A flaming bag of dog turds should be polling ahead of the current Conservative party.

It's all very well saying "either we unite behind the current leadership or the Tories will win" - but the Tories are winning, which practically defies the laws of physics.

They have been neck and neck, and yesterday it was dead even in the latest polling I saw. Worth also pointing out that remain was polling well ahead, until the vote.

Havockk · 18-02-2019 4:51pm

More
Westminster voting intention:

CON: 37% (-4)
LAB: 37% (+3)
LDEM: 8% (-)
UKIP: 7% (-)

via @OpiniumResearch, 13 - 15 Feb
Chgs. w/ 01 Feb

10:40 AM - 16 Feb 2019

LuckyLloyd · 18-02-2019 4:54pm

They also were getting hammered in polling in early 2017 and their ultimate performance was a massive leap beyond mean expectations.

quokula · 18-02-2019 4:56pm

Once an election campaign begins manifestos get published and people start thinking about actual policies and not just media smears, which is why Labour did so much better than polling last time, and likely would again.

Havockk · 18-02-2019 4:56pm

Actually, this polling data makes the decision from these 7 seem even more insane. If there is no mass defection from Lab, and no one joins from the Tories to fracture them.... what exactly will they achieve?

oscarBravo · 18-02-2019 4:58pm

Havockk wrote: »

Actually, this polling data makes the decision from these 7 seem even more insane. If there is no mass defection from Lab, and no one joins from the Tories to fracture them.... what exactly will they achieve?

A principled stand against a party whose values they no longer recognise as compatible with their own?

listermint · 18-02-2019 4:59pm

quokula wrote: »

Once an election campaign begins manifestos get published and people start thinking about actual policies and not just media smears, which is why Labour did so much better than polling last time, and likely would again.

Then why did the membership unanimously vote for second referendum?

And Corbyn with his 'ultra' socialist policies is avoiding it with every last bead of sweat he can muster.

He is ignoring the Membership.

Dyr · 18-02-2019 5:00pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

They won the seat, it was their name, not the party.

You seem to be mixing the UK up with Ireland as far as election goes.

You think the scousers voted for a toffee nosed, carpet bagging southerner for any other reason other than her being the Labour candidate?

You could run a broken toaster in a lot of English constituencies and it would be elected so long as it had the right party badge

Havockk · 18-02-2019 5:01pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

A principled stand against a party whose values they no longer recognise as compatible with their own?

What about the labour supporters who elected them, what about them?

MrMusician18 · 18-02-2019 5:03pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

That's a perfectly valid argument - if you subscribe to the belief that the Labour party as it currently stands can win an election.

As it is, Labour are polling well behind the Conservatives.

Think about that for a second. A flaming bag of dog turds should be polling ahead of the current Conservative party.

It's all very well saying "either we unite behind the current leadership or the Tories will win" - but the Tories are winning, which practically defies the laws of physics.

Are they?

I thought the polls were quite tight? Surely then the Tories wouldn't fear an election then?

Or isn't it the case that once people get to hear what Corbyn has to say, they quite like it?

Havockk · 18-02-2019 5:09pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Are they?

I thought the polls were quite tight? Surely then the Tories wouldn't fear an election then?

Or isn't it the case that once people get to hear what Corbyn has to say, they quite like it?

I can barely stomach the argument that it's somehow 'more principled' to risk total tory political dominance than to somehow accept someone of the left to lead a labour movement. The truth is the collective centre has lost all sense of itself and is now possibly paving the way for something even worse.

prawnsambo · 18-02-2019 5:11pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Are they?

I thought the polls were quite tight? Surely then the Tories wouldn't fear an election then?

Or isn't it the case that once people get to hear what Corbyn has to say, they quite like it?

On Corbyn specifically, in leadership polls he's consistently finished third behind Theresa May and Don't Know. That could change in an election, but Labour members are now favouring no brexit and he's refused to countenance that. How much that could affect the Labour vote is uncertain, but it has to be a factor in Labour's poor performance in the polls. As OB says, they should be well ahead of the dumpster fire that is the Tories.

listermint · 18-02-2019 5:11pm

Havockk wrote: »

I can barely stomach the argument that it's somehow 'more principled' to risk total tory political dominance than to somehow accept someone of the left to lead a labour movement. The truth is the collective centre has lost all sense of itself and is now possibly paving the way for something even worse.

What like shepherding the Tories into a brexit deal which has already killed thousands of labour jobs and will continue to risk thousands more.

Good Shepherding their Jeremy , ace job.

This is ultra Socialism, Its not social democracy which is demonstrated cleanly and clearly by the leadership ignoring their membership.

Leroy42 · 18-02-2019 5:14pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Are they?

I thought the polls were quite tight? Surely then the Tories wouldn't fear an election then?

Or isn't it the case that once people get to hear what Corbyn has to say, they quite like it?

But if that were true then surely Labour would be riding high in the polls now? He got an uplift during the election for sure, but it should be very worrying that he was not able to hold that, or since the Tories are such a mess, capitalise on it.

All the Labour have left at this stage is hope. Hope that what happened last time (and btw people seem to have forgotten that Labour still lost) will happen again. But people are now very aware of Corbyn and what he stands for and seemingly are no longer feeling like they did in 2017.

quokula · 18-02-2019 5:15pm

listermint wrote: »

What like shepherding the Tories into a brexit deal which has already killed thousands of labour jobs and will continue to risk thousands more.

Good Shepherding their Jeremy , ace job.

This is ultra Socialism, Its not social democracy which is demonstrated cleanly and clearly by the leadership ignoring their membership.

Labour don't have the numbers in parliament to stop what's happening. What exactly could they have done differently? They've voted against the Tories every step of the way.

And Corbyn's letter last week proposing staying in the Customs Union and Single Market was widely welcomed by people like Tusk and Verhofstadt. It's a blatant mistruth to try and paint Labour's Brexit policy as anything close to the Tories.

But yes, it's true that he hasn't openly campaigned for a second referendum that has no chance of happening and would disillusion many labour voters (but not their membership)

oscarBravo · 18-02-2019 5:17pm

Havockk wrote: »

What about the labour supporters who elected them, what about them?

Would those be the Labour supporters who overwhelmingly back a second referendum, and who are being pointedly ignored by the party leadership?

Politicians change parties between elections. It happens. If their constituents think it's an unforgivable breach of trust, they won't be re-elected.

Havockk wrote: »

I can barely stomach the argument that it's somehow 'more principled' to risk total tory political dominance than to somehow accept someone of the left to lead a labour movement.

You're reframing this as a rejection of left-wing policy. This isn't about rejecting left-wing leadership of Labour; it's about rejecting an abject failure of leadership of Labour.

Havockk · 18-02-2019 5:17pm

listermint wrote: »

What like shepherding the Tories into a brexit deal which has already killed thousands of labour jobs and will continue to risk thousands more.

Good Shepherding their Jeremy , ace job.

This is ultra Socialism, Its not social democracy which is demonstrated cleanly and clearly by the leadership ignoring their membership.

a 2nd ref was never going to fly. Only way was going to be via a GE but teh Tories refused that pressure. Besides, as a remainer I'm also not completely unaware that a lot of LAb voters supported Brexit which makes it very delicate for leadership to organise a consensus.

Corbyn as always backed a CU, something the EU themselves have pointed toward as a possible solution but it all falls on deaf ears.

Ultra socialism? Like nationalising railways? Give me a break. I wish the consequences were not so dire, otherwise, I could almost enjoy this centerist complete meltdown.

Havockk · 18-02-2019 5:18pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

Would those be the Labour supporters who overwhelmingly back a second referendum, and who are being pointedly ignored by the party leadership?

Politicians change parties between elections. It happens. If their constituents think it's an unforgivable breach of trust, they won't be re-elected.

You're reframing this as a rejection of left-wing policy. This isn't about rejecting left-wing leadership of Labour; it's about rejecting an abject failure of leadership of Labour.

I pointed out to you that on Monday both were polling exactly the same. You just brushed over it.

MrMusician18 · 18-02-2019 5:18pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

But if that were true then surely Labour would be riding high in the polls now? He got an uplift during the election for sure, but it should be very worrying that he was not able to hold that, or since the Tories are such a mess, capitalise on it.

All the Labour have left at this stage is hope. Hope that what happened last time (and btw people seem to have forgotten that Labour still lost) will happen again. But people are now very aware of Corbyn and what he stands for and seemingly are no longer feeling like they did in 2017.

He has held it, but to be fair not built on it. Remember they were expected to be trounced at the last election, to lose by over 100 seats.

And the reason he hasn't been able to build stopped is because a good number of MPs come from leave constituencies.

There are a lot of myths being pedalled as fact about Corbyn in this thread - with the real issue is that he is not pro remain enough for some posters.

listermint · 18-02-2019 5:20pm

quokula wrote: »

Labour don't have the numbers in parliament to stop what's happening. What exactly could they have done differently? They've voted against the Tories every step of the way.

And Corbyn's letter last week proposing staying in the Customs Union and Single Market was widely welcomed by people like Tusk and Verhofstadt. It's a blatant mistruth to try and paint Labour's Brexit policy as anything close to the Tories.

But yes, it's true that he hasn't openly campaigned for a second referendum that has no chance of happening and would disillusion many labour voters (but not their membership)

Havockk wrote: »

a 2nd ref was never going to fly. Only way was going to be via a GE but teh Tories refused that pressure. Besides, as a remainer I'm also not completely unaware that a lot of LAb voters supported Brexit which makes it very delicate for leadership to organise a consensus.

Corbyn as always backed a CU, something the EU themselves have pointed toward as a possible solution but it all falls on deaf ears.

Ultra socialism? Like nationalising railways? Give me a break. I wish the consequences were not so dire, otherwise, I could almost enjoy this centerist complete meltdown.

The MEMBERSHIP voted for a Second Referendum. Corbyn has been actively fighting this.

Stop trying to rewrite history. This is only in the last few months lads.

These points are easily disproved.

Corbyn's labour is not acting democratically. Which is the platform he launched himself on. And the leadership is going along with it.

Awful setup, they are enabling the Tories with Glee... Killing jobs along the way.

Folkstonian · 18-02-2019 5:21pm

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

Losing seven centre-right MPs is hardly the break-up of the party. The anti-Semitism nonsense exists solely because the 'IRA supporter', 'Russian spy' smears didn't work. The idea that Corbyn, a life-long anti-racism campaigner, is an anti-Semite is absolutely ludicrous. They were right to leave - because they don't support the socialist policies that attracted 12.8 million voters in 2017 - they should be honest and cite those ideological differences as the reason, rather than repeating the same well-rehearsed lies about anti-Semitism.

Unbelievable.. But wholly typical of the absurd delusion that exists among the cultists.

You simply cannot ignore the mountain of compelling evidence against Jeremy Corbyn’s handling of the antisemitism that has spread like wildfire in the Labour Party since he became leader and expect people to take you seriously.

At best, the man is ignorant of the issue or entirely incapable of dealing with it. At worst, he has no interest in driving it out of the labour movement.

Also, to smear somebody generally means to damage their reputation through the spreading of false accusations. I won’t touch the IRA issue here, but on Russia - his response to the Skripal poisoning was all too real.

He stood up in parliament and cast doubt on the informed assessments of british police and intelligence services while dozens of our international partners across Europe and the world were standing with us by enacting sanctions and expelling Russian diplomats from their countries. It was painful to watch him dither, squirm and blunder in the aftermath, and yet another example of his total lack of the requisite intellectual judgement and/or moral courage for a PM in waiting

listermint · 18-02-2019 5:21pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

He has held it, but to be fair not built on it. Remember they were expected to be trounced at the last election, to lose by over 100 seats.

And the reason he hasn't been able to build stopped is because a good number of MPs come from leave constituencies.

There are a lot of myths being pedalled as fact about Corbyn in this thread - with the real issue is that he is not pro remain enough for some posters.

He is not remain at all, Lets cut to the chase. There are people that will make excuses for the man constantly regardless of the evidence. Everyday brexit gets closer and he says nothing of note demonstrates his feelings on the EU.

He is terrible.

oscarBravo · 18-02-2019 5:22pm

Havockk wrote: »

I pointed out to you that on Monday both were polling exactly the same. You just brushed over it.

I'm not brushing over it. I'll reiterate my point: polling neck and neck with the disaster-of-old-testament-proportions that is the current Tory party is, and can only be seen as, an abject failure of leadership.

Havockk · 18-02-2019 5:22pm

listermint wrote: »

The MEMBERSHIP voted for a Second Referendum. Corbyn has been actively fighting this.

Stop trying to rewrite history. This is only in the last few months lads.

These points are easily disproved.

Corbyn's labour is not acting democratically. Which is the platform he launched himself on. And the leadership is going along with it.

Awful setup, they are enabling the Tories with Glee... Killing jobs along the way.

A 2ndRef mandate is going to do F-All for Labour at this point. Brexit can't be stopped, it's too late.

Leroy42 · 18-02-2019 5:24pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

He has held it, but to be fair not built on it. Remember they were expected to be trounced at the last election, to lose by over 100 seats.

And the reason he hasn't been able to build stopped is because a good number of MPs come from leave constituencies.

There are a lot of myths being pedalled as fact about Corbyn in this thread - with the real issue is that he is not pro remain enough for some posters.

The polls are saying that Labour would lose seats in the next election. That is not holding. But, since they lost the last election, holding was never the plan. They needed significant gains. And they are being helped by a completely split governing power.

So by any measure, Corbyn is doing a terrible job. Their only hope, and it is not based on anything but hope, is that Corbyn can repeat the same trick he did in 2017 (which, I repeat, he failed to win, he simply did less bad than expected!).

but clearly Corbyn gained for a more balanced media in the GE 2017 campaign, when people got to see and hear Corbyn. But one then needs to take the view that people have already forgotten the real Corbyn again and will only remember when a new GE campaign starts. That, IMO, is very unlikely.

Havockk · 18-02-2019 5:24pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm not brushing over it. I'll reiterate my point: polling neck and neck with the disaster-of-old-testament-proportions that is the current Tory party is, and can only be seen as, an abject failure of leadership.

That wasn't your point. You told me that Lab were miles behind, and could never win. You're just engaging in a bit of post-moving now.

MrMusician18 · 18-02-2019 5:24pm

listermint wrote: »

The MEMBERSHIP voted for a Second Referendum. Corbyn has been actively fighting this.

Stop trying to rewrite history. This is only in the last few months lads.

These points are easily disproved.

Corbyn's labour is not acting democratically. Which is the platform he launched himself on. And the leadership is going along with it.

Awful setup, they are enabling the Tories with Glee... Killing jobs along the way.

You only look for a referendum when you think you'll win. There is no majority on the HoC for a second referendum.

It's far too close to call at the moment even if they could get one. My gut says remain lose again though.

Second referendum and they lose, what then? The same problems exist. Do labour just wash their hands of the country?

Leroy42 · 18-02-2019 5:25pm

Havockk wrote: »

A 2ndRef mandate is going to do F-All for Labour at this point. Brexit can't be stopped, it's too late.

And that was always Corbyn's plan. Delay, delay and delay until the point was reached when people could claim that they would love to support a 2nd ref but its simply too late.

Havockk · 18-02-2019 5:26pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

The polls are saying that Labour would lose seats in the next election. That is not holding. But, since they lost the last election, holding was never the plan. They needed significant gains. And they are being helped by a completely split governing power.

So by any measure, Corbyn is doing a terrible job. Their only hope, and it is not based on anything but hope, is that Corbyn can repeat the same trick he did in 2017 (which, I repeat, he failed to win, he simply did less bad than expected!).

but clearly Corbyn gained for a more balanced media in the GE 2017 campaign, when people got to see and hear Corbyn. But one then needs to take the view that people have already forgotten the real Corbyn again and will only remember when a new GE campaign starts. That, IMO, is very unlikely.

And back to teh main issue, how is the leaving of these 7 members going to help anything?

Havockk · 18-02-2019 5:27pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

And that was always Corbyn's plan. Delay, delay and delay until the point was reached when people could claim that they would love to support a 2nd ref but its simply too late.

The 1st Ref broke everything. For anyone to think a 2nd Ref would fix anything is conning themselves.

Folkstonian · 18-02-2019 5:33pm

Havockk wrote: »

And back to teh main issue, how is the leaving of these 7 members going to help anything?

Who do you think they are meant to be helping?

They cannot help the Labour Party. It’s gone. It’s done. It’s in the hands of extremists and they wont be letting go.

They’ve been trying to help by speaking out about certain issues for over three years and have achieved nothing but to make themselves targets of some pretty disgraceful abuse.

They’ve left the Labour Party because it no longer reflects their values, their morals or their politics. They can now speak and vote freely on important issues and not be condemned by association with what’s going on in British Labour.

Professor Moriarty · 18-02-2019 5:35pm

Folkstonian wrote: »

Who do you think they are meant to be helping?

They cannot help the Labour Party. It’s gone. It’s done. It’s in the hands of extremists and they wont be letting go.

They’ve been trying to help by speaking out about certain issues for over three years and have achieved nothing but to make themselves targets of some pretty disgraceful abuse.

They’ve left the Labour Party because it no longer reflects their values, their morals or their politics. They can now speak and vote freely on important issues and not be condemned by association with what’s going on in British Labour.

I don't think they'll be the last to leave either. Corbyn will ruin has ruined Labour. The only hope is that the Tories will also splinter.

MrMusician18 · 18-02-2019 5:36pm

listermint wrote: »

[/B]

He is not remain at all, Lets cut to the chase. There are people that will make excuses for the man constantly regardless of the evidence. Everyday brexit gets closer and he says nothing of note demonstrates his feelings on the EU.

He is terrible.

Indeed. That is the issue, he's a leaver or a tepid remainer at best. Posters here need to be honest that that is their issue with him.

The anti semitism nonsense is just an emotive ploy to get rid of him because the centre fundamentally disagrees with him on policy.

The problem is they don't know what they are for and if they could figure that out, there's not enough of them.

Leroy42 · 18-02-2019 5:36pm

Havockk wrote: »

And back to teh main issue, how is the leaving of these 7 members going to help anything?

On its own, it probably doesn't. But someone has to jump first. There has to be the first courageous ones to start the process.

Will it work, will it make a difference? I tend to think it won't. The leadership, of both parties, seem totally entrenched and seemingly care more about the party than then country, so this will be passed off as a few disgruntled being jettisoned. The fact that Chukka was seen by many as a future Leader, and was at one time a very senior member of Labour will be ignored

Havockk wrote: »

The 1st Ref broke everything. For anyone to think a 2nd Ref would fix anything is conning themselves.

It may not fix everything, but it could start the process. A 2nd ref to stop the madness would be a start. In of itself, it of course won't solve all the problems, but then Brexit is not going to solve those problems either.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 18-02-2019 5:37pm

Folkstonian wrote: »

Who do you think they are meant to be helping?

They cannot help the Labour Party. It’s gone. It’s done. It’s in the hands of extremists and they wont be letting go.

They’ve been trying to help by speaking out about certain issues for over three years and have achieved nothing but to make themselves targets of some pretty disgraceful abuse.

They’ve left the Labour Party because it no longer reflects their values, their morals or their politics. They can now speak and vote freely on important issues and not be condemned by association with what’s going on in British Labour.

It’s not in the least but radical. It’s pre blairite.

This new party is dead in the water.

ancapailldorcha · 18-02-2019 5:38pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Indeed. That is the issue, he's a leaver or a tepid remainer at best. Posters here need to be honest that that is their issue with him.

The anti semitism nonsense is just an emotive ploy to get rid of him because the centre fundamentally disagrees with him on policy.

The problem is they don't know what they are for and if they could figure that out, there's not enough of them.

Corbyn's Labour and anti-Semitism is a bit like UKIP and racism. It keeps coming up too often to simply believe that it's a hit job by the media.

My primary issue with Labour is over Brexit, funnily enough but the anti-Semitism problem is still significiant in the eyes of many as Labour and the left are supposed to be the champions of the downtrodden. I don't know enough about Israel-Palestine to go extrapolating conclusions on that front but Corbyn has had years by now to fix this and as far as I can tell, he hasn't.

Havockk · 18-02-2019 5:38pm

Folkstonian wrote: »

Who do you think they are meant to be helping?

They cannot help the Labour Party. It’s gone. It’s done. It’s in the hands of extremists and they wont be letting go.

They’ve been trying to help by speaking out about certain issues for over three years and have achieved nothing but to make themselves targets of some pretty disgraceful abuse.

They’ve left the Labour Party because it no longer reflects their values, their morals or their politics. They can now speak and vote freely on important issues and not be condemned by association with what’s going on in British Labour.

It's a labour movement. It's of the left mate. No need for the histrionics.

I'm asking what is their manifesto? Are they, for instance, asking for a 2nd Ref within 40 odd days? If not... what are they doing?

I also find it ironic that the centre and the ultra brexit crowd have finally found each other. I actually laughed earlier when Dan Hannan gave them his endorsement. Couldn't make it up at this stage.

MrMusician18 · 18-02-2019 5:40pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

And that was always Corbyn's plan. Delay, delay and delay until the point was reached when people could claim that they would love to support a 2nd ref but its simply too late.

Should it be stopped? They did vote to leave after all.

Why not give the majority what they want?

Professor Moriarty · 18-02-2019 5:41pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Should it be stopped? They did vote to leave after all.

Why not give the majority what they want?

What kind of Leave did they vote for?

Havockk · 18-02-2019 5:42pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

What kind of Leave did they vote for?

The Tories are doing all the negotiating, inhouse.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 18-02-2019 5:42pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Corbyn's Labour and anti-Semitism is a bit like UKIP and racism. It keeps coming up too often to simply believe that it's a hit job by the media.

It’s basically the same stuff regurgitated

My primary issue with Labour is over Brexit, funnily enough but the anti-Semitism problem is still significiant in the eyes of many as Labour and the left are supposed to be the champions of the downtrodden. I don't know enough about Israel-Palestine to go extrapolating conclusions on that front but Corbyn has had years by now to fix this and as far as I can tell, he hasn't.

There’s no issue. It’s totally manufactured.

Professor Moriarty · 18-02-2019 5:43pm

Havockk wrote: »

The Tories are doing all the negotiating, inhouse.

And the 52% voted for the Tories to sort it out based on Tory party politics. Or maybe...I don't know...reasons.

MrMusician18 · 18-02-2019 5:45pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Corbyn's Labour and anti-Semitism is a bit like UKIP and racism. It keeps coming up too often to simply believe that it's a hit job by the media.

My primary issue with Labour is over Brexit, funnily enough but the anti-Semitism problem is still significiant in the eyes of many as Labour and the left are supposed to be the champions of the downtrodden. I don't know enough about Israel-Palestine to go extrapolating conclusions on that front but Corbyn has had years by now to fix this and as far as I can tell, he hasn't.

What media does it keep appearing in? Right wing press who hate him and the centre left guardian.

BobbyBobberson · 18-02-2019 5:48pm

Did anyone watch the independents press conference live? Something that is doing my head in is people online falling for Luciana Berger's "slip up". She introduces hereself "And I am the labour MP"...........pause, realises mistake. It was completely scripted for god sake.

Sorry had to get that off my chest. Anyway in other news I am geuinely baffled they do not have to go to by elections.

Havockk · 18-02-2019 5:49pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

And the 52% voted for the Tories to sort it out based on Tory party politics. Or maybe...I don't know...reasons.

So how is that Corbyn's fault?

Well lads, I suppose if things go massively wrong for these centerists they can always turn round in the aftermath and say things like...

"but I had the courage to split when I did."

or

" It was all worth it to oust Corbyn and his mildly lefty ideas."

Sound politicking right there. Good to see a new strategy, lifted from the toys out of pram principle.

ancapailldorcha · 18-02-2019 5:49pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

What media does it keep appearing in? Right wing press who hate him and the centre left guardian.

Ironically enough, that's the sort of rhetoric UKIP supporters come out with.

Leroy42 · 18-02-2019 5:50pm

BobbyBobberson wrote: »

Did anyone watch the independents press conference live? Something that is doing my head in is people online falling for Luciana Berger's "slip up". She introduces hereself "And I am the labour MP"...........pause, realises mistake. It was completely scripted for god sake.

Sorry had to get that off my chest. Anyway in other news I am geuinely baffled they do not have to go to by elections.

So leaving the party should immediately mean you face losing your job? Think that one through a bit. Basically, even in safe seats, no sitting MP could even dare to go against the leaderships wishes as they just just kick them out of the party.

Havockk · 18-02-2019 5:52pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

So leaving the party should immediately mean you face losing your job? Think that one through a bit. Basically, even in safe seats, no sitting MP could even dare to go against the leaderships wishes as they just just kick them out of the party.

They wouldn;t be barred, but I think it would only be fair to go back to teh electorate and ask.

MPs quitting Labour & Conservative parties discussion thread

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