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MPs quitting Labour & Conservative parties discussion thread

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,361 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    I see your point but Momentum and the Labour Youth have significant control over the party compared to their equivalents in the UK and elsewhere.

    There is also a 'purple wave' in the Tory party due to the sudden influx of thousands of ex UKIP activists who have joined up since the summer. This will inevitably push the Tories even further right.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,947 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    By-election needed in Newport West now also, as the sitting MP has died. >5000 majority for Labour last time out and hasn't elected another party since 1983. Will the new not-a-party have anyone to run there in time?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,167 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    It's not a real issue, it's never been a real issue.

    I dunno, its seems to have been bubbling away for a while, there was a sound recording of stuff released from a recent local meeting which added fuel to the fire. With so many discussing it I've no reason to believe it's not an issue.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    It's not a real issue, it's never been a real issue.

    So the people who say it's a real issue are... lying? confused?

    I'm always suspicious of non-Jews claiming that anti-semitism isn't a problem, for the same reason I'm suspicious of white people claiming racism isn't a problem, or men claiming that sexism isn't a problem, or non-Muslims claiming that islamophobia isn't a problem.

    Just because it's not an issue for you doesn't mean it's not a real issue.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Hurrache wrote: »
    Are you saying it's not a real issue and they're just using it as an excuse because they can't use any other of his inadequate attributes as party leader?

    Do you not think the fact that it has been raised now but nothing seems to have been done about it a big problem?

    They've repeatedly tried up winkle their limpet like leader off the hull of the good ship Labour on every ground imaginable and none of it worked. This is the latest attempt.

    What you're seeing is a shift in the battle for control of the party between Momentum and the Blairites.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 36,219 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Hurrache wrote: »
    I dunno, its seems to have been bubbling away for a while, there was a sound recording of stuff released from a recent local meeting which added fuel to the fire. With so many discussing it I've no reason to believe it's not an issue.

    So many discussing it with a clear agenda to discredit Corbyn or the Labour Party or both. It’s the ultimate storm in a teacup.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,773 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    What we need is more Labour MPs to resign and join this new party. Enough to kick the DUP to touch and support the TM deal and save us all from a hard Brexit.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,087 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    eagle eye wrote: »
    What we need is more Labour MPs to resign and join this new party. Enough to kick the DUP to touch and support the TM deal and save us all from a hard Brexit.

    Just because they have left Labour doesn't meant they will vote the opposite way to Labour. Doesn't change the maths that has the DUP being required for May to remain in power.


  • Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭GSRNBP


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    It's not a real issue, it's never been a real issue.
    Luciana Berger has been personally subjected to it, this has been accepted by the Labour party (including Sam Tarry right now on BBC) and it has been accepted that Berger feels her concerns were not addressed. There is nobody on from Labour denying that there is a problem - they're all saying that they should have stayed and tried to fix it from the inside.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    robinph wrote: »
    Just because they have left Labour doesn't meant they will vote the opposite way to Labour. Doesn't change the maths that has the DUP being required for May to remain in power.

    I couldn't realistically see any group of non right wingers signing up to a confidence and supply arrangement with the current Tory Government.

    The one thing this could do is give enough confidence to remainer and more moderate Tories to splits and then maybe you get a temporary centrist party combining the two. It's a bit of a stretch though, particularly if this were all to happen by the Ides of March. We're already past the Ides of February!!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,167 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    Bambi wrote: »
    They've repeatedly tried up winkle their limpet like leader off the hull of the good ship Labour on every ground imaginable and none of it worked. This is the latest attempt.

    What you're seeing is a shift in the battle for control of the party between Momentum and the Blairites.

    And they're doing so by making up anti semitism and faking audio recordings?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,674 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    So many discussing it with a clear agenda to discredit Corbyn or the Labour Party or both. It’s the ultimate storm in a teacup.

    Corbyn himself has discredited the party regarding Brexit and antisemitism in the eyes of many. This might well prove to be a storm in a teacup but it highlights the structural problems Labour have that have held it back in the polls.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭Imreoir2


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    So the people who say it's a real issue are... lying? confused?

    I'm always suspicious of non-Jews claiming that anti-semitism isn't a problem, for the same reason I'm suspicious of white people claiming racism isn't a problem, or men claiming that sexism isn't a problem, or non-Muslims claiming that islamophobia isn't a problem.

    Just because it's not an issue for you doesn't mean it's not a real issue.

    While I am inclined to agree with you, and I think it would be absurd to claim that there is no anti-semitisim in the Labour party, one wonders just how much of an issue it really is?

    It is clear that Labour and it's leadership are not openly anti-semitic and are certainly not persuing clearly anti-semitic policies. It seems to come back to an issue of culture and the opinions of some members. One assumes that the culture people speak of is not something that came out of the blue or was entirely created by Corbyn and his team, which begs the question why it is an issue now if it was not a few years ago. Clearly the people benefitng most from this are opponents of Labour and Corbyn's leadership and clearly they have reason to exagerate and make it more of an issue than it might be in reality.

    On the other hand, it would be pointless to claim that there is no basis to the issue, even if much of the heat around it is being exploited by opponents of Labour and Corbyn in particular. There is a reason that this is the issue they have focused on and that the accusations seem to be sticking.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,003 ✭✭✭Shelga


    Why now? With 39 days to go til Brexit? They’re not going to achieve anything by splitting apart now, surely? I suppose they want to be free to voice their true opinions on it all, and stay true to their beliefs, but they’re only helping the Tories at this point.

    Another day wasted, where all the talk is about party divisions and not the massive catastrophe about to hit the country.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    So the people who say it's a real issue are... lying? confused?

    I'm always suspicious of non-Jews claiming that anti-semitism isn't a problem, for the same reason I'm suspicious of white people claiming racism isn't a problem, or men claiming that sexism isn't a problem, or non-Muslims claiming that islamophobia isn't a problem.

    Just because it's not an issue for you doesn't mean it's not a real issue.

    Shouldn't we be equally suspicious of Jews and non Jews who have been members of the labour party for years and decades claiming that there is now institutional anti semitism within the labour party, but have kept quiet for years?. Handily enough at the very same time someone they despise is the leader of the Labour party. Convenient eh?!

    And to add to our suspicions, these same people have tried everything to get rid of Corbyn before and since.


    I'm not saying that there are no anti semetic members of labour but it's as plain as day this "anti semitism scandal" is a tactic to oust Corbyn. If Starmer was made leader tomorrow, the institutional anti semitism would be forgotten about.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Imreoir2 wrote: »
    One assumes that the culture people speak of is not something that came out of the blue or was entirely created by Corbyn and his team, which begs the question why it is an issue now if it was not a few years ago.

    The major difference between now and a few years ago is that the current leader of the party is perceived as being part of the problem. Yes, it's a problem if you have possibly anti-semitic elements within a broad-church party, but it inevitably becomes a much bigger problem when those elements effectively take control of the party.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,816 ✭✭✭10000maniacs


    Corbyn has a lot to answer for. He laid out the Labour strategy in 2018, i.e. 6 tests-->No General Election-->Second Referendum.
    To the disgust of a lot of Labour members he reneged on the second referendum because he is a leaver through and through.
    Theresa May will be grinning like a Cheshire cat today but her party is just as broken. We are closer to a cliff edge Brexit today.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,320 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    It's not a real issue, it's never been a real issue.
    Here's Luciana Berger speaking about the non-issue in parliament.

    If you take the time to scroll through the replies, you'll find all the usual tropes about Palestinians suffering under the Israeli government's policies as some kind of justification.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭Folkstonian


    Bambi wrote: »
    Yeah, if people keep saying something then it's probably true.



    Personal opinion: It's just blaggarding, it's the only thing they have left that sticks to Corbyn.



    Corbyns been in charge for three years, if Labour is institutionally anti-Semitic then it was going on long before his watch and these MP's didn't raise it.


    Labour does have a problem it that a lot of it's Muslim voters and members who hold values that are at odds with any Liberal Party. But these MPs did not see that as a problem any more than Corbyn did.

    Corbyn’s leadership of labour has emboldened lots of Marxist nutters and hopping-mad antisemites to crawl out from under their rocks and swell the party ranks.

    At both the leadership level, and amongst the membership, labour is a different beast entirely.

    If I may add, your statement that ‘nothing else has stuck’ to Corbyn is just absolutely baffling - have you seen his approval ratings recently?

    His overseas connections, allegiances and standpoints are deeply troubling.

    Look at his positions on Venezuela, his questioning of the findings of the British investigation into Russian state use of chemical weapons on English streets, his complete ineffectiveness to stamp out vicious anti-Jewish hatred from the party, his historic connections to some really repugnant individuals linked to Islamist terror groups, and so on and so forth.

    Look at the hideous individuals he has chosen to form his inner circle of advisors and front bench shadow ministers. The likes of McDonnell, a properly ghastly man, Chris Williamson - the geezer looks and speaks like a comic book villain. Suemus Milne, we all know what he is. It’s a complete mess.

    It’s not a conspiracy to undermine him, it’s not fake news, it’s fully documented on film, in pictures and in print. It’s all real and it’s all his own doing.

    I think these seven have had enough with smashing their heads against a brick wall. They’ve had enough of being told that they are the problem.

    It’s a courageous move, and I don’t think they will be the last to turn their back on Jeremy’s vision for labour and Britain.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Shouldn't we be equally suspicious of Jews and non Jews who have been members of the labour party for years and decades claiming that there is now institutional anti semitism within the labour party, but have kept quiet for years?.

    Maybe instead of rummaging around for arguments in favour of our preferred conclusions, we should examine the facts. If some members of the party are claiming there is institutional anti-semitism, then either (a) there is, or (b) they're lying about it in order to further an agenda.

    If you wholeheartedly believe (b) to be true, there's an onus to disprove (a) - and I'm seeing a lot more of people arguing for (b) than producing evidence against (a).


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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Mod Note

    Have created a new thread since a lot of the discussion on this news isn't Brexit related


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭Folkstonian


    Shouldn't we be equally suspicious of Jews and non Jews who have been members of the labour party for years and decades claiming that there is now institutional anti semitism within the labour party, but have kept quiet for years?. Handily enough at the very same time someone they despise is the leader of the Labour party. Convenient eh?!

    And to add to our suspicions, these same people have tried everything to get rid of Corbyn before and since.


    I'm not saying that there are no anti semetic members of labour but it's as plain as day this "anti semitism scandal" is a tactic to oust Corbyn. If Starmer was made leader tomorrow, the institutional anti semitism would be forgotten about.

    You are either deluded or wilfully ignorant. Take five minutes out of your day to look at the twitter or Facebook pages of any journalist, commentator or labour MP who has the resolve to speak out against antisemitism in the party.

    Read the torrent of hate and abuse they receive. Observe the emblems, the hashtags, the party allegiances of the abusers.

    Labour has big problems.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,816 ✭✭✭10000maniacs


    Mod Note

    Have created a new thread since a lot of the discussion on this news isn't Brexit related
    My post was Brexit related. Will I reinstate it in the Brexit thread?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,035 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    Here is an article by Umumna on why he has quit. Its clear to me that he has left due to Corbyn's botched opposition to Brexit.
    The party’s collective failure to take a lead and provide sufficiently strong, coherent opposition to Tory government policy on the UK’s relationship with Europe, with all the adverse implications this poses for the working people of this constituency, is a betrayal of the Labour interest and Labour’s internationalist principles.
    UK Independent

    I agree with him 100% on that point. Shame he has left it so late. What a sorry mess.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,298 ✭✭✭✭branie2


    The seven MPs should form their own party.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Maybe instead of rummaging around for arguments in favour of our preferred conclusions, we should examine the facts. If some members of the party are claiming there is institutional anti-semitism, then either (a) there is, or (b) they're lying about it in order to further an agenda.

    If you wholeheartedly believe (b) to be true, there's an onus to disprove (a) - and I'm seeing a lot more of people arguing for (b) than producing evidence against (a).
    Or they could be exaggerating?
    You can't claim this abuse is institutional, but have kept quiet for years.
    Unless they were complicit in the cover up?

    There's a lot more arguing for it in order to get rid of Corbyn. The center left media find him distasteful, and the right media think he's dangerous.

    That's why it's an issue.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,784 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    I always find this argument amazing.

    LibDems are busted because, as a junior partner in a coalition government they clearly got taken advantage of.

    But Blair, and Labour, brought the UK into a war the majority of the UK did not want.

    The Tories are now in charge of probably the most dysfunctional government in UK history. Even staunch Brexiteers claim that they are making a pig ears of the whole thing, with the line that Brexit would be easy only for TM etc.

    Yet they continue to keep the main support. It really makes no sense so I put the aversion to the LibDems as little more that party loyalty dressed up as some stand up against lies.

    Amazing?

    thats bad leadership.... As i said!


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,320 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Or they could be exaggerating?
    You can't claim this abuse is institutional, but have kept quiet for years.
    Unless they were complicit in the cover up?
    So you're saying that it has been a problem for years? And that's some sort of excuse for continuing to ignore it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Maybe instead of rummaging around for arguments in favour of our preferred conclusions, we should examine the facts. If some members of the party are claiming there is institutional anti-semitism, then either (a) there is, or (b) they're lying about it in order to further an agenda.

    If you wholeheartedly believe (b) to be true, there's an onus to disprove (a) - and I'm seeing a lot more of people arguing for (b) than producing evidence against (a).




    Onus is on the accuser to provide evidence of the accusation, but you know that.


    I could make the accusation that this whole thing of a being a plot to unseat a Pro Palestinian Labour Leader through fake news, in the same way that Putin is interfering in European Democracies, but I'd have no evidence of that.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,167 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    Bambi wrote: »
    Onus is on the accuser to provide evidence of the accusation, but you know that.

    Everyone ignoring the recording at Labour meetings that I mentioned more than once?


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