MPs quitting Labour & Conservative parties discussion thread

Havockk

Leroy42 wrote: »

The polls are saying that Labour would lose seats in the next election. That is not holding. But, since they lost the last election, holding was never the plan. They needed significant gains. And they are being helped by a completely split governing power.

So by any measure, Corbyn is doing a terrible job. Their only hope, and it is not based on anything but hope, is that Corbyn can repeat the same trick he did in 2017 (which, I repeat, he failed to win, he simply did less bad than expected!).

but clearly Corbyn gained for a more balanced media in the GE 2017 campaign, when people got to see and hear Corbyn. But one then needs to take the view that people have already forgotten the real Corbyn again and will only remember when a new GE campaign starts. That, IMO, is very unlikely.

And back to teh main issue, how is the leaving of these 7 members going to help anything?

Havockk

Leroy42 wrote: »

And that was always Corbyn's plan. Delay, delay and delay until the point was reached when people could claim that they would love to support a 2nd ref but its simply too late.

The 1st Ref broke everything. For anyone to think a 2nd Ref would fix anything is conning themselves.

Folkstonian

Havockk wrote: »

And back to teh main issue, how is the leaving of these 7 members going to help anything?

Who do you think they are meant to be helping?

They cannot help the Labour Party. It’s gone. It’s done. It’s in the hands of extremists and they wont be letting go.

They’ve been trying to help by speaking out about certain issues for over three years and have achieved nothing but to make themselves targets of some pretty disgraceful abuse.

They’ve left the Labour Party because it no longer reflects their values, their morals or their politics. They can now speak and vote freely on important issues and not be condemned by association with what’s going on in British Labour.

Professor Moriarty

Folkstonian wrote: »

Who do you think they are meant to be helping?

They cannot help the Labour Party. It’s gone. It’s done. It’s in the hands of extremists and they wont be letting go.

They’ve been trying to help by speaking out about certain issues for over three years and have achieved nothing but to make themselves targets of some pretty disgraceful abuse.

They’ve left the Labour Party because it no longer reflects their values, their morals or their politics. They can now speak and vote freely on important issues and not be condemned by association with what’s going on in British Labour.

I don't think they'll be the last to leave either. Corbyn will ruin has ruined Labour. The only hope is that the Tories will also splinter.

MrMusician18

listermint wrote: »

[/B]


He is not remain at all, Lets cut to the chase. There are people that will make excuses for the man constantly regardless of the evidence. Everyday brexit gets closer and he says nothing of note demonstrates his feelings on the EU.

He is terrible.

Indeed. That is the issue, he's a leaver or a tepid remainer at best. Posters here need to be honest that that is their issue with him.

The anti semitism nonsense is just an emotive ploy to get rid of him because the centre fundamentally disagrees with him on policy.

The problem is they don't know what they are for and if they could figure that out, there's not enough of them.

Leroy42

Havockk wrote: »

And back to teh main issue, how is the leaving of these 7 members going to help anything?

On its own, it probably doesn't. But someone has to jump first. There has to be the first courageous ones to start the process.

Will it work, will it make a difference? I tend to think it won't. The leadership, of both parties, seem totally entrenched and seemingly care more about the party than then country, so this will be passed off as a few disgruntled being jettisoned. The fact that Chukka was seen by many as a future Leader, and was at one time a very senior member of Labour will be ignored

Havockk wrote: »

The 1st Ref broke everything. For anyone to think a 2nd Ref would fix anything is conning themselves.

It may not fix everything, but it could start the process. A 2nd ref to stop the madness would be a start. In of itself, it of course won't solve all the problems, but then Brexit is not going to solve those problems either.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Folkstonian wrote: »

Who do you think they are meant to be helping?

They cannot help the Labour Party. It’s gone. It’s done. It’s in the hands of extremists and they wont be letting go.

They’ve been trying to help by speaking out about certain issues for over three years and have achieved nothing but to make themselves targets of some pretty disgraceful abuse.

They’ve left the Labour Party because it no longer reflects their values, their morals or their politics. They can now speak and vote freely on important issues and not be condemned by association with what’s going on in British Labour.

It’s not in the least but radical. It’s pre blairite.

This new party is dead in the water.

ancapailldorcha

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Indeed. That is the issue, he's a leaver or a tepid remainer at best. Posters here need to be honest that that is their issue with him.

The anti semitism nonsense is just an emotive ploy to get rid of him because the centre fundamentally disagrees with him on policy.

The problem is they don't know what they are for and if they could figure that out, there's not enough of them.

Corbyn's Labour and anti-Semitism is a bit like UKIP and racism. It keeps coming up too often to simply believe that it's a hit job by the media.

My primary issue with Labour is over Brexit, funnily enough but the anti-Semitism problem is still significiant in the eyes of many as Labour and the left are supposed to be the champions of the downtrodden. I don't know enough about Israel-Palestine to go extrapolating conclusions on that front but Corbyn has had years by now to fix this and as far as I can tell, he hasn't.

Havockk

Folkstonian wrote: »

Who do you think they are meant to be helping?

They cannot help the Labour Party. It’s gone. It’s done. It’s in the hands of extremists and they wont be letting go.

They’ve been trying to help by speaking out about certain issues for over three years and have achieved nothing but to make themselves targets of some pretty disgraceful abuse.

They’ve left the Labour Party because it no longer reflects their values, their morals or their politics. They can now speak and vote freely on important issues and not be condemned by association with what’s going on in British Labour.

It's a labour movement. It's of the left mate. No need for the histrionics.

I'm asking what is their manifesto? Are they, for instance, asking for a 2nd Ref within 40 odd days? If not... what are they doing?

I also find it ironic that the centre and the ultra brexit crowd have finally found each other. I actually laughed earlier when Dan Hannan gave them his endorsement. Couldn't make it up at this stage.

MrMusician18

Leroy42 wrote: »

And that was always Corbyn's plan. Delay, delay and delay until the point was reached when people could claim that they would love to support a 2nd ref but its simply too late.

Should it be stopped? They did vote to leave after all.

Why not give the majority what they want?

Professor Moriarty

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Should it be stopped? They did vote to leave after all.

Why not give the majority what they want?

What kind of Leave did they vote for?

Havockk

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

What kind of Leave did they vote for?

The Tories are doing all the negotiating, inhouse.

Franz Von Peppercorn

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Corbyn's Labour and anti-Semitism is a bit like UKIP and racism. It keeps coming up too often to simply believe that it's a hit job by the media.

It’s basically the same stuff regurgitated

My primary issue with Labour is over Brexit, funnily enough but the anti-Semitism problem is still significiant in the eyes of many as Labour and the left are supposed to be the champions of the downtrodden. I don't know enough about Israel-Palestine to go extrapolating conclusions on that front but Corbyn has had years by now to fix this and as far as I can tell, he hasn't.

There’s no issue. It’s totally manufactured.

Professor Moriarty

Havockk wrote: »

The Tories are doing all the negotiating, inhouse.

And the 52% voted for the Tories to sort it out based on Tory party politics. Or maybe...I don't know...reasons.

MrMusician18

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Corbyn's Labour and anti-Semitism is a bit like UKIP and racism. It keeps coming up too often to simply believe that it's a hit job by the media.

My primary issue with Labour is over Brexit, funnily enough but the anti-Semitism problem is still significiant in the eyes of many as Labour and the left are supposed to be the champions of the downtrodden. I don't know enough about Israel-Palestine to go extrapolating conclusions on that front but Corbyn has had years by now to fix this and as far as I can tell, he hasn't.

What media does it keep appearing in? Right wing press who hate him and the centre left guardian.

BobbyBobberson

Did anyone watch the independents press conference live? Something that is doing my head in is people online falling for Luciana Berger's "slip up". She introduces hereself "And I am the labour MP"...........pause, realises mistake. It was completely scripted for god sake.

Sorry had to get that off my chest. Anyway in other news I am geuinely baffled they do not have to go to by elections.

Havockk

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

And the 52% voted for the Tories to sort it out based on Tory party politics. Or maybe...I don't know...reasons.

So how is that Corbyn's fault?

Well lads, I suppose if things go massively wrong for these centerists they can always turn round in the aftermath and say things like...

"but I had the courage to split when I did."

or

" It was all worth it to oust Corbyn and his mildly lefty ideas."

Sound politicking right there. Good to see a new strategy, lifted from the toys out of pram principle.

ancapailldorcha

MrMusician18 wrote: »

What media does it keep appearing in? Right wing press who hate him and the centre left guardian.

Ironically enough, that's the sort of rhetoric UKIP supporters come out with.

Leroy42

BobbyBobberson wrote: »

Did anyone watch the independents press conference live? Something that is doing my head in is people online falling for Luciana Berger's "slip up". She introduces hereself "And I am the labour MP"...........pause, realises mistake. It was completely scripted for god sake.

Sorry had to get that off my chest. Anyway in other news I am geuinely baffled they do not have to go to by elections.

So leaving the party should immediately mean you face losing your job? Think that one through a bit. Basically, even in safe seats, no sitting MP could even dare to go against the leaderships wishes as they just just kick them out of the party.

Havockk

Leroy42 wrote: »

So leaving the party should immediately mean you face losing your job? Think that one through a bit. Basically, even in safe seats, no sitting MP could even dare to go against the leaderships wishes as they just just kick them out of the party.

They wouldn;t be barred, but I think it would only be fair to go back to teh electorate and ask.

prawnsambo

MrMusician18 wrote: »

You only look for a referendum when you think you'll win. There is no majority on the HoC for a second referendum.

It's far too close to call at the moment even if they could get one. My gut says remain lose again though.

Second referendum and they lose, what then? The same problems exist. Do labour just wash their hands of the country?

I'm not so sure about that. THere are enough Tory remainers who might jump at the chance to get what they want. If the entire Labour Party (minus the UKIP wing) were to support it, it could have been a very close call. But that ship has indeed sailed. The last call for that was five months ago, perhaps three if extra time were available through an extension. Basically when TM's deal failed to get through, that was the last chance to do it.

Franz Von Peppercorn

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Ironically enough, that's the sort of rhetoric UKIP supporters come out with.

Ironically enough that’s well poisoning.

Tom Mann Centuria

oscarBravo wrote: »

A principled stand against a party whose values they no longer recognise as compatible with their own?

This happy band must be delighted you're associating them with the word principled.

Mike Gapes who visits Saudi Arabia regularly and is favour of still supplying them arms. Angela "brown tinge" Smith who is so vehemently against water going back to into public ownership and just so happens to be paid by water company lobbyists, Gavin anti gay marriage shuker? Chuka labelling people as trash Umunna.

Party registered as a company in Panama so their backers don't have to to declare themselves, you know, like an actual political party would.


Pricinipled?

Professor Moriarty

Havockk wrote: »

So how is that Corbyn's fault?

Well lads, I suppose if things go massively wrong for these centerists they can always turn round in the aftermath and say things like...

"but I had the courage to split when I did."

or

" It was all worth it to oust Corbyn and his mildly lefty ideas."

Sound politicking right there. Good to see a new strategy, lifted from the toys out of pram principle.

Well, let's look at how many people approve of how he is handling Brexit. That would be 16%. May's Brexit approval rating is 25%. So people think that Theresa May, who is a disaster, is doing a better job on Brexit than Corbyn. That's how it's Corbyn's fault.

Havockk

prawnsambo wrote: »

I'm not so sure about that. THere are enough Tory remainers who might jump at the chance to get what they want.

Honestly, it could well do the opposite and embolden the Tories now they see the opposition split like this. Not going to lie, if there are many more, it could lead to the worst of all scenarios.

ancapailldorcha

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Ironically enough that’s well poisoning.

I don't see how. The parallels are there.

If people have to dismiss every outlet in the land because they're criticising Jeremy Corbyn, it makes for a very poor argument to moderate voters why he should be Prime Minister.

Franz Von Peppercorn

BobbyBobberson wrote: »

Did anyone watch the independents press conference live? Something that is doing my head in is people online falling for Luciana Berger's "slip up". She introduces hereself "And I am the labour MP"...........pause, realises mistake. It was completely scripted for god sake.

Sorry had to get that off my chest. Anyway in other news I am geuinely baffled they do not have to go to by elections.

That’s ok in my view. I mean I think it would be the moral thing to do, but it’s not legally necessary.

Havockk

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Well, let's look at how many people approve of how he is handling Brexit. That would be 16%. May's Brexit approval rating is 25%. So people think that Theresa May, who is a disaster, is doing a better job on Brexit than Corbyn. That's how it's Corbyn's fault.

People also thought it was smart enough to vote leave in the first instance, so....???

BobbyBobberson

Leroy42 wrote: »

So leaving the party should immediately mean you face losing your job? Think that one through a bit. Basically, even in safe seats, no sitting MP could even dare to go against the leaderships wishes as they just just kick them out of the party.

Yeah hadnt thought about that. I suppose I am just thinking it from my own point of view. If I voted Labour and my MP no longer was Labour then I would not be happy. As someone pointed out, some constituencies vote for whoever as long as they have the correct party badge. Remain voting Vauxhall returning Kate Hoey is an example.

super_furry

Corbyn is beyond useless. Imagine being up against the worst Tory party leader in living memory, in the midst of a massive political crisis created and worsened by the the Tories and then not being able to take advantage of that and put clear daylight between the two parties.

Corbyn wants a hard brexit because he can then nationalise everything and ignore EU state aid rules and if he even did get into power, he'd drag Britain back to the 70s.