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Saorview Content Speculation

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    #302
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Why?

    They claim "Public" launch is mid 2011


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    #303
    FREETV
    Registered Users Posts: 1,673 ✭✭✭FREETV


    watty wrote: »
    Why?

    They claim "Public" launch is mid 2011
    Isn't the service going live at the end of Oct? Wouldn't it make sense to have boxes ready for inital takeup of the service before then to make it more of a success? :)


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    #304
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,500 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    FREETV wrote: »
    Isn't the service going live at the end of Oct? Wouldn't it make sense to have boxes ready for inital takeup of the service before then to make it more of a success? :)

    The Oct date is being referred to as the technical launch - information campaign for retailers/installers/viewers, training for installers/retailers.

    The 2009 Broadcasting Act requires RTÉ to provide a full national digital service by the end of 2011 or such date the Minister may specify. The Minister has informed RTÉ that the date for the provision of a full national digital terrestrial television service is 31 December 2011. RTÉ recently said they recommend Q2 2011 as the date for the public national launch with 49 of the 51 sites rolled out to over 97% of the population and the Saorsat service possibly operational.

    I think we will begin to see STBs once the public information campaign begins.


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    #305
    sob1467
    Registered Users Posts: 777 ✭✭✭sob1467


    As far as I am concerened there is no point in launching any new platform unless it launches with a RTÉ HD channel.


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    #306
    Gerry Wicklow
    Registered Users Posts: 4,542 ✭✭✭Gerry Wicklow


    The Cush wrote: »
    The Oct date is being referred to as the technical launch - information campaign for retailers/installers/viewers, training for installers/retailers.

    I would imagine it's kinda hard to train people about things that don't exist i.e. STBs...
    "It'll sorta look like this, and might do that but won't do the other... we think!":p


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    #307
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    sob1467 wrote: »
    As far as I am concerened there is no point in launching any new platform unless it launches with a RTÉ HD channel.

    RTE2 will be part time HD.
    When the 2nd Mux is available, then RTE1 & 2 will be HD more often.

    There is not space for a separate HD channel, nor does simulcast make sense when the ENTRY LEVEL spec is for a box or TV that can do HD. Any HD set box has to provide SCART down-sampling for non-HDTVs. Downsampled HD will be about 50% better quality or better than SD Digital RTE on Sky on the same non-HDTV.


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    #308
    Peter Henderson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 116 ✭✭Peter Henderson


    I think we will begin to see STBs once the public information campaign begins.

    Yes, but that's the problem with the ROI going for MPEG 4 rather than MPEG 2

    Had they gone for the MPEG 2 standard there would have been plenty of cheap UK boxes available (well under £50). As things stand, the only UK boxes capable of receiving MPEG 4 are the very expensive Freeview HD ones (£179 for the Humax).

    The whole thing could turn into a complete farce.


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    #309
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    Peter Henderson wrote: »
    Yes, but that's the problem with the ROI going for MPEG 4 rather than MPEG 2

    Had they gone for the MPEG 2 standard there would have been plenty of cheap UK boxes available (well under £50). As things stand, the only UK boxes capable of receiving MPEG 4 are the very expensive Freeview HD ones (£179 for the Humax).

    The whole thing could turn into a complete farce.

    Rubbish, Peter. MPEG4 is THE standard in Europe. No boxes NOT cost that price. MPEG4 DVB-T Boxes are less than 60 EURO everywhere accross Europe. What you wont see is the MHEG5 part, many can live without that.

    Infact you can get a combo HD box that does Irish DTT and Sat for €150 posted.

    MPEG2 is dead. The only people using it are the UK for their SD stations.

    Back on topic away from MPEG2 hijacking, as has been said, it is highly likely that Saorview approved boxes will not appear until March April 2011 to coincide with the combined launch of Saorsat and Saorview.

    That shouldnt stop people from buying a HD combo box that will do all that RTE and Sat, minus MHEG5. Its just not a major plus to have, the EIT will still be broadcast outside of MHEG5.


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    #310
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Peter,
    And then there would be 1/2 the space for channels. Almost 20 countries are going for MPEG4. MPEG2 would be irresponsible.

    You do realise also that RTE2 will be HD part time and when the 2nd Mux is nationwide RTE1 and RTE2 will be gradually HD full time. The MINIMUM is an HD box. Even if you don't have an HDTV (it will downsample).

    In another year HD MPEG4 boxes and TVs will be much cheaper, similar price as MPEG2 today. Only PVRs will be at the €180 price.


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    #311
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,500 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Peter Henderson wrote: »
    Yes, but that's the problem with the ROI going for MPEG 4 rather than MPEG 2

    Had they gone for the MPEG 2 standard there would have been plenty of cheap UK boxes available (well under £50). As things stand, the only UK boxes capable of receiving MPEG 4 are the very expensive Freeview HD ones (£179 for the Humax).

    The whole thing could turn into a complete farce.

    MPEG-2 v MPEG-4 has been discussed to death here since it was selected as the video compression standard in late July 2008, all we need now is someone to bring up DVB-T2 :rolleyes:.


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    #312
    Peter Henderson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 116 ✭✭Peter Henderson


    Rubbish, Peter. MPEG4 is THE standard in Europe. No boxes NOT cost that price.

    But the only boxes compatible with MPEG 4 are the DVB T2 HD boxes, and the cheapest currently availablein the UK is the Humax at £ 179. As far as I'm aware, none of the cheap <£50 boxes decode MPEG 4.
    MPEG4 DVB-T Boxes are less than 60 EURO everywhere accross Europe

    I assume the major retailers are going to import these in time for DSO ?

    Otherwise, there's going to be a major problem in that little old ladies in Connemara or Donegal are suddenly going to find themselves without any TV pictures at all and they'll be wondering what's happened.

    Unless this is done properly it's going to be a complete and utter disaster.


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    #313
    Apogee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,774 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Peter Henderson wrote: »
    But the only boxes compatible with MPEG 4 are the DVB T2 HD boxes, and the cheapest currently availablein the UK is the Humax at £ 179. As far as I'm aware, none of the cheap <£50 boxes decode MPEG 4.

    You're incorrect. There are plenty of DVB-T MPEG4 boxes, both standalone and combo type. The majority of TVs released in the past year or two are MPEG4 compatible. There are endless threads on this already.


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    #314
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    Peter Henderson wrote: »
    But the only boxes compatible with MPEG 4 are the DVB T2 HD boxes, and the cheapest currently availablein the UK is the Humax at £ 179. As far as I'm aware, none of the cheap <£50 boxes decode MPEG 4.



    I assume the major retailers are going to import these in time for DSO ?

    Otherwise, there's going to be a major problem in that little old ladies in Connemara or Donegal are suddenly going to find themselves without any TV pictures at all and they'll be wondering what's happened.

    Unless this is done properly it's going to be a complete and utter disaster.


    Peter you are still not up to speed and still incorrect.

    No. The only compatiable boxes are not the Freeview HD DVBT2 boxes. There are plenty of boxes that retail at €60 and less mainly from France - DVBT MPEG4.

    The little old ladies in Connemara and Donegal will be fine. ASO 2012. DSO 2011.

    Yes. There is a plan to go with DSO I am sure Peter.

    I get the impression that you reside outside of Ireland ? If this is the case you may be interested to know that the cheapest UK DVBT2 box is 60stg (AND NOT 179STG) from Tesco's which will be handy for picking up the UK Freeview HD service within the UK.


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    #315
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    But not in Jordanstown till 2012

    Currently we will have RTE HD in Limerick before Co. Antrim has Terrestrial HD. In fact my mum's house in Co. Antrim can't even get Divis DTT at all. She has Freesat and Sky boxes. Not even "Five" on her Analogue, just 1, 2 UTV and C4.

    There are also people off Antrim Road, North Belfast with no DTT. Only Analogue Carnmony Hill.


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    #316
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    ah Jordanstown. Didnt see it under Peters name.

    Well Peter when RTE start broadcsting from Divis next year you will have to update your MPEG2 gear to MPEG4 in order to receive it. Whilst Freeview HD wont happen in NI until 2012 you will be able to watch RTE form Irish DTT with some HD content.

    In cases in NI, a Freeview HD box is a good investemnt. As i said earlier Tesco - Technika STBHDIS2010 60STG.


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    #317
    lawhec
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,757 ✭✭✭lawhec


    STB wrote: »
    ah Jordanstown. Didnt see it under Peters name.

    Well Peter when RTE start broadcsting from Divis next year you will have to update your MPEG2 gear to MPEG4 in order to receive it. Whilst Freeview HD wont happen in NI until 2012 you will be able to watch RTE form Irish DTT with some HD content.

    In cases in NI, a Freeview HD box is a good investemnt. As i said earlier Tesco - Technika STBHDIS2010 60STG.
    That's news to me? RTÉ from Divis starting in 2011?

    As for the MPEG2 vs. MPEG4 debate, were this 2005 or even 2006 there might have been a reasonable argument for MPEG2 but in 2010 it's now a legacy codec. Countries that have launched DVB-T services in the past couple of years are using MPEG-4 as standard.


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    #318
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    STB wrote: »
    Well Peter when RTE start broadcsting from Divis next year

    Whatever the value of the GFA, the whole point of an MOU is that it's absolutely non-binding and basically PR Fluff.

    If Egypt and Iran signed an MOU about peace between Iranians and Arabs I'd prepare for war.

    I'm not saying RTE on N.I. Digital is impossible, after all we have the Bizarre broadcasting of TG4 in Analogue from Black Mountain, but I'd not hold my breath either.


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    #319
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,500 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    lawhec wrote: »
    As for the MPEG2 vs. MPEG4 debate, were this 2005 or even 2006 there might have been a reasonable argument for MPEG2 but in 2010 it's now a legacy codec. Countries that have launched DVB-T services in the past couple of years are using MPEG-4 as standard.

    There are some exceptions, Slovakia launched it's public service mux last Dec with MPEG-2 due to the percentage of MPEG-2 equipment in homes. Croatia launched a two mux MPEG-2 service last year.


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    #320
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    I've been in bits of Slovakia.

    Brataslava has shared aerials on the Apartment blocks.
    Pointing Slovak, Hungarian, Austrian and Czech TV.


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    #321
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    watty wrote: »
    Whatever the value of the GFA, the whole point of an MOU is that it's absolutely non-binding and basically PR Fluff.

    If Egypt and Iran signed an MOU about peace between Iranians and Arabs I'd prepare for war.

    I'm not saying RTE on N.I. Digital is impossible, after all we have the Bizarre broadcasting of TG4 in Analogue from Black Mountain, but I'd not hold my breath either.

    Indeed I am speculating, not betting mind you ! Everything and anything might be possible.
    The Cush wrote: »
    There are some exceptions, Slovakia launched it's public service mux last Dec with MPEG-2 due to the percentage of MPEG-2 equipment in homes. Croatia launched a two mux MPEG-2 service last year.
    And that indecision and lack of regulation in not tying down the box spec will come back to haunt them I'd imagine. You could forever be in a period of transition when you allow your country to buy up the remaining MPEG2 stock and then expect them to move to a new box within a short after period. As low cost is the key driver to this move, it will now take them at least a decade to get people moved over to MPEG4 and there is still no firm spec out there. Their biggest broadcaster hasnt even made a decision to join DTT. Strangely the pay operator on Sat is also the same group that launched DTT. Hard to fathom whether they want competition on DTT or whether its just to facilitate analogue switch off - a quarter of Slovakia depend on analogue? Hmmm.

    Czech Republic is the other. You think Ireland's commercial mux issues where bad you should read up on the extremes that the broadcasting authority had to go to get the Czech commercial operators to move from analogue and the resultant legal cases. It set them back years. One of the muxes is actually MPEG4 and thats the one operated by the network owner.

    Outside Croatia the rest of the country's that have stuck with MPEG2 are early adopters of DTT and are stuck with legacy for the moment. ASO is coming. DSO must happen regardless of the compression. Bordering a country can be a strong influence with legacy compression.

    6034073


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    #322
    Rick_
    Registered Users Posts: 2,606 ✭✭✭Rick_


    STB wrote: »
    Well Peter when RTE start broadcsting from Divis next year you will have to update your MPEG2 gear to MPEG4 in order to receive it.
    When exactly was this announced? And how is it going to broadcast when the spectrum is already full from Divis and it can't even support a small signal strength increase, never mind fitting another MUX in?


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    #323
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    He admitted that was speculation. Lets move on :)


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    #324
    Rick_
    Registered Users Posts: 2,606 ✭✭✭Rick_


    Apologies, I didn't see that part of the post.


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    #325
    lgs 4
    Registered Users Posts: 661 ✭✭✭lgs 4


    watty wrote: »
    TV channels
    • RTE1
    • RTE2
    • TV3 (eventually)
    • TG4
    • Oireachtas TV / RTE News (not enough content for 2 full channels)
    (there are two Oireachtas TV feeds already for years and 2.3GHz spectrum tied up in part of Dublin).

    All RTE's Radio
    • RTÉ Radio 1
    • RTÉ 2fm
    • RTÉ lyric fm
    • RTÉ Raidió na Gaeltachta
    Including spectrum wasting DAB Stations :)
    • RTÉ 2 XM
    • RTÉ Choice
    • RTÉ Junior / Chill
    • RTÉ Gold
    • RTÉ Pulse
    • RTÉ Radio 1 Extra
    No HD once TV3 joins. HD needs another THREE Muxes if all 4 channels on HD as well as SD, or TWO addition Mux if no SD.
    In theory with Saorview spec boxes people without HD can use HD feed, so no need for wasteful simulcast.
    the one that people are forgetting the present channel line up none of the channels are in dolby digital


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    #326
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Oireachtas TV seems on hold
    also
    TV3e,
    Sharing a channel: RTE1 +1 (evening), Children (daytime), Eurovision (overnight)
    RTE 2 part time in HD.


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    #327
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,500 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    lgs 4 wrote: »
    the one that people are forgetting the present channel line up none of the channels are in dolby digital

    Didn't forget, when the RTÉNL2 HD test channel launched in May I did post question regarding audio on that channel - thought they might be testing both HD audio and video. Quess it's not a priority.


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    #328
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Historically Digital Sat TV uses MP2, like DAB. It's an old rubbish codec.
    AAC gives much better quality at same bit rate, or same quality at much lower bit rate. Or someplace between. Also while DAB uses MP2, DAB+ uses AAC.

    All TV apart from Cinema rebroadcast is simply stereo or mono.

    They are desparately short of space even with two mux to have 4 x HD channels (the minimum). So it would make sense to go with AAC for all TV audio and for all the Radio on DTT
    RTÉ Radio 1
    RTÉ Radio 1 Extra
    RTÉ 2 FM
    RTÉ RnaG
    RTÉ Lyric FM
    RTÉ Choice
    RTÉ Gold
    RTÉ Junior/RTÉ Chill
    RTÉ Pulse/RTÉ 2xm

    This means it's cheaper to roll out DAB+ as Saorview or Saorsat has the same bitstream and Saorsat can be backup for DAB+ as well as Saorview.

    The minimum RTE spec does include AAC audio, as does the nordig 2.0
    The IRD should also support parametric stereo audio decoding for MPEG-4 HE AAC Level 4 (i.e.
    version 2). (Parametric Stereo (PS) is only applicable for use of MPEG4 HE.AAC version 2 stereo
    audio and mainly target for use in Radio services, i.e. not applicable for 5.1 or mono audio services
    and not applicable for any Enhanced AC3 or MPEG-1 Layer II).
    ...
    The IRD shall support decoding of variable bitrate of HE.AAC up to level 4 audio stream.

    I think using AAC instead of MP2 at same quality level saves about 2Mbps per multiplex. Using Statistical Mux and 1440x1080i HD, that's almost 1/3rd to 1/2 of an HD channel and slightly more than one SD channel.


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    #329
    mossym
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,766 Mod ✭✭✭✭mossym


    lgs 4 wrote: »
    the one that people are forgetting the present channel line up none of the channels are in dolby digital

    that's been echoed everywhere though, sky won't send DD over HDMI,even if the signal has it, ITV aren't sending multichannel, bbc are poor too.

    just a theory i have they are worried about tv's not been able to handling a multichannel track correctly and switching to the stereo, only tv'si know of with multichannel decode are Loewe, and while most tv's should handle the swith correctly, if some el cheapo tv's can't handle the multichannel stream correctly then the chennl provider will be getting the call as it must be the channel as all other channels are working fine

    this may be more relevant to sky and the freesat platforms, the space may be a limiting factor for irish DTT

    just a theory mind


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    #330
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    1) Only Cinema has multichannel, buy the DVD.
    2) There isn't space
    3) Read the Soarview minimum RTE spec


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    #331
    mossym
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,766 Mod ✭✭✭✭mossym


    watty wrote: »
    1) Only Cinema has multichannel, buy the DVD.
    2) There isn't space
    3) Read the Soarview minimum RTE spec

    Cinema, sports, TV shows(in the US, they get limited to stereo here). and i acknowledged the space issue, but a minimum set of standards is just that a minimum, you have to broadcast stereo , but nothing says that you can't also transmit s multichannel track if one exists

    the HDMI spec that deals with ARC(Audio return channel),mainy used for TV tuner audio back to external AVR specifies mandatory support for multichannel up to 5.1 at 48kHz, and optional up to to 192kHz. France for example is using Dolby Digital Plus in(some of) it's transmissions, 5.1 @48KHz oversampled to 192KHz.

    there is no reason they can't do it, other than space. For systems where the space isn't an issue, as the multichannel track has already made it to the box, there has to be another reason, and i still believe what i wrote above.

    the chances of us ever seeing it in Ireland? Doubtful, if the UK won't do it, neither will we.


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