Anti-vaxxers

Igotadose · 10-03-2019 11:08am

The run in question wasn't to deliver vaccines (It was in 1925, after all.) Still, nice sentiment:

waxmoth · 10-03-2019 10:00pm

mzungu wrote: »

It is ethical to use an adjuvant instead of the vaccine in trials where the vaccine will have that adjuvant in it. Aluminium adjuvants can be used as placebo as they have been around long enough to have been studied for safety.

But they have never been studied for safety, are not inert, and it is highly unethical to use a nontherapeutic substance with adverse effects in a control population.

mzungu wrote: »

As regards saline placebo, some vaccine studies do use them. A few are listed below:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25371534
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29443825
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29239682
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29217375
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28720281
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28522338
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28498853
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28376743
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27895921
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26411885

To get meaningful detail you have to look at full papers and often there is not full disclosure of methodology and results. On the ones you have linked…

1. Non-aluminium based ASO1B adjuvant, very small trial and not a healthy study population (HIV)
2. Side effects were not studied and adjuvant not described but probably squalene based.
3. Small trial (66 individuals) non-aluminium based adjuvant
4. Small trial (68) only 12 received saline placebo
5. Non-aluminium adjuvant (ASO3)
6. Adjuvant not described but commonly squalene based in this type of vaccine.
7. Very small trial – 9 saline subjects
8. Trial proposal no results
9. Literature review of 13 HPV vaccine trials. 11 use aluminium adjuvant as placebo. 2 saline placebo with 1 being in an immunodeficient population (HIV) and the other a medium sized study which showed less adverse experiences in the smaller saline arm. All serious events were in the vaccine arm.
10. Study population requirement to have been fully HPV vaccinated previously which would remove susceptibles. All discontinuations due to serious events were from the vaccine/adjuvant arm. Placebo arm 50% size of vaccine arm.

As the trials are carried out in ideal conditions the adverse events are best case scenario and will be elevated in actual vaccination populations compared to selected study groups.

Dohnjoe · 10-03-2019 10:17pm

Worse than anti-vaxxers are this new breed of "on the fence" doubters. The individuals who pick over insignificant or out-of-context technical details

It's like they are smart enough to know they can't directly argue with facts like vaccines prevent diseases and there's no link between vaccines and autism.. instead they sit on the sidelines, delving into semantics, technicalities, anything in order to cast a bit of "doubt" on the subject, to muddy the waters

jh79 · 10-03-2019 10:38pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Worse than anti-vaxxers are this new breed of "on the fence" doubters. The individuals who pick over insignificant or out-of-context technical details

It's like they are smart enough to know they can't directly argue with facts like vaccines prevent diseases and there's no link between vaccines and autism.. instead they sit on the sidelines, delving into semantics, technicalities, anything in order to cast a bit of "doubt" on the subject, to muddy the waters

It's a recognised trait of conspiracy theorist kniw as anomaly hunters.

Find a percieved anomaly and build a theory around it rather than look at the evidence in its totality.

In the case of the saline placebos highlight the small numbers used but ignore the post approval studies that prove them to be valid.

The Princess Bride · 10-03-2019 10:53pm

wobatkicker23 wrote: »

I would take slight brain damage over severe autism any day.

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Slight ? Believe you me I know its not slight . I have nursed children brain damaged from measles encephalitis and it is not by any stretch slight . Its is devastatingly horrible

Once in my life, just once, I nursed a child with Subacute Sclerosing Panencephalitis, caused by measles.

I remember their name.
I remember the room they were in.
I remember precisely what they looked like and what their care involved.
It was 32 years ago and I remember everything.

I wish I could forget.

Believe me, there was nothing slight about their brain damage.

ohnonotgmail · 10-03-2019 11:12pm

iamwhoiam · 10-03-2019 11:57pm

The Princess Bride wrote: »

Once in my life, just once, I nursed a child with Subacute Sclerosing Panencephalitis, caused by measles.

I remember their name.
I remember the room they were in.
I remember precisely what they looked like and what their care involved.
It was 32 years ago and I remember everything.

I wish I could forget.

Believe me, there was nothing slight about their brain damage.

I wish I could forget too . And I still see the parents who were broken and desperate . If they could turn back time they would have and its was killing them .

two wheels good · 11-03-2019 12:26am

Newstalk's "Futureproof" programme today reporting a new Danish study that comprehensively concludes there's no connection between MMR vac and autism.

Apparently the children who didn't have the vac presented a slightly higher incidence of autism than those who had the vac.
(I had a quick look on the website but can't see an obvious link to podcast, sorry)

Capt'n Midnight · 11-03-2019 12:57am

two wheels good wrote: »

Newstalk's "Futureproof" programme today reporting a new Danish study that comprehensively concludes there's no connection between MMR vac and autism.

Apparently the children who didn't have the vac presented a slightly higher incidence of autism than those who had the vac.
(I had a quick look on the website but can't see an obvious link to podcast, sorry)

https://annals.org/aim/article-abstract/2727726/measles-mumps-rubella-vaccination-autism-nationwide-cohort-study

Participants:

657 461 children born in Denmark from 1999 through 31 December 2010, with follow-up from 1 year of age and through 31 August 2013.

...
Conclusion:

The study strongly supports that MMR vaccination does not increase the risk for autism, does not trigger autism in susceptible children, and is not associated with clustering of autism cases after vaccination. It adds to previous studies through significant additional statistical power and by addressing hypotheses of susceptible subgroups and clustering of cases.

But the Anti-Vaxxers will stick their fingers in their ears and go "I can't hear you"

But no matter, hundreds of thousands have died and will die because of them.

Encephalopathy · 11-03-2019 1:09am

two wheels good wrote: »

Newstalk's "Futureproof" programme today reporting a new Danish study that comprehensively concludes there's no connection between MMR vac and autism.

Apparently the children who didn't have the vac presented a slightly higher incidence of autism than those who had the vac.
(I had a quick look on the website but can't see an obvious link to podcast, sorry)

According to the study, children are 7% more likely to develop autism if they don't get the MMR, they really overcooked the books with that one and what happened to the provaxxers opinion that all people diagnosed with autism is something their born with, a child can't just develop autism, missed signs and all that malarkey.

wobatkicker23 · 11-03-2019 1:42am

The Princess Bride wrote: »

Once in my life, just once, I nursed a child with Subacute Sclerosing Panencephalitis, caused by measles.

I remember their name.
I remember the room they were in.
I remember precisely what they looked like and what their care involved.
It was 32 years ago and I remember everything.

I wish I could forget.

Believe me, there was nothing slight about their brain damage.

How do you know you are talking to a nurse?

They tell you.

mzungu · 11-03-2019 2:02am

waxmoth wrote: »

But they have never been studied for safety, are not inert, and it is highly unethical to use a nontherapeutic substance with adverse effects in a control population.

Not according to any of the relevant bodies associated with research and clinical trials. Everything falls well within ethical boundaries. If you have any evidence to the contrary please feel free to provide it.

Aluminum adjuvanted vaccines are subunit so they would be ineffective without the adjuvant. It would be "unethical" to conduct a trial where some groups will be administered such known ineffective vaccines, placebo or no intervention.

waxmoth wrote: »

To get meaningful detail you have to look at full papers and often there is not full disclosure of methodology and results. On the ones you have linked…

1. Non-aluminium based ASO1B adjuvant, very small trial and not a healthy study population (HIV)
2. Side effects were not studied and adjuvant not described but probably squalene based.
3. Small trial (66 individuals) non-aluminium based adjuvant
4. Small trial (68) only 12 received saline placebo
5. Non-aluminium adjuvant (ASO3)
6. Adjuvant not described but commonly squalene based in this type of vaccine.
7. Very small trial – 9 saline subjects
8. Trial proposal no results
9. Literature review of 13 HPV vaccine trials. 11 use aluminium adjuvant as placebo. 2 saline placebo with 1 being in an immunodeficient population (HIV) and the other a medium sized study which showed less adverse experiences in the smaller saline arm. All serious events were in the vaccine arm.
10. Study population requirement to have been fully HPV vaccinated previously which would remove susceptibles. All discontinuations due to serious events were from the vaccine/adjuvant arm. Placebo arm 50% size of vaccine arm.

As the trials are carried out in ideal conditions the adverse events are best case scenario and will be elevated in actual vaccination populations compared to selected study groups.

The studies show that in cases where it is ethical and logistical to use saline placebos in trials, they have been used. There are other times when it is neither ethical or logistical saline placebos and thus they are not used. Nothing unethical there.

If you are looking for studies with more participants that used a placebo then the clinical trials for Gardasil would be what you are looking for. Most of the study participants received the aluminium adjuvant except one (protocol 18) that was conducted on girls and boys aged 9-15 years old. The placebo used was a saline solution. 1184 were randomised to receive the vaccine and 596 randomised to receive the saline solution placebo. The proportion of systemic events was comparable in each group. In the follow up a year 12 months after, a slightly lower proportion of vaccine recipients reported a new medical condition compared with the saline placebo recipients.

Source: Food and Drug Administration, Clinical Review of Biologics License Application for Human Papillomavirus 6, 11, 16, 18 L1 Virus Like Particle Vaccine (S. cerevisiae) (STN 125126 GARDASIL), manufactured by Merck, Inc, Vaccines Clinical Trial Branch, Office of Vaccines Research and Review, Centre for Biologics Evaluation and Research, Editor. 2006, Food and Drug Administration.

VicMackey1 · 11-03-2019 2:33am

Vaccines don't cause autism!

Vaccines cause adults!

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 11-03-2019 2:57am

Is there a vaccination against intelligence? Could explain a thing or two.

Brian? · 11-03-2019 8:28am

Encephalopathy wrote: »

According to the study, children are 7% more likely to develop autism if they don't get the MMR, they really overcooked the books with that one and what happened to the provaxxers opinion that all people diagnosed with autism is something their born with, a child can't just develop autism, missed signs and all that malarkey.

Actually what “provaxxers”* are doing is noting the statistical anamoly and moving on. They’re not latching on to a single data point and making an argument from it.

Anti vaxxers could learn a lot from it.

*aren't “provaxxers” just the normal 99% of the population. So we need a name?

Brian? · 11-03-2019 8:29am

wobatkicker23 wrote: »

How do you know you are talking to a nurse?

They tell you.

How do you know someone’s parent were antivaxx? Their headstone will tell you.

ancapailldorcha · 11-03-2019 8:43am

Encephalopathy wrote: »

According to the study, children are 7% more likely to develop autism if they don't get the MMR, they really overcooked the books with that one and what happened to the provaxxers opinion that all people diagnosed with autism is something their born with, a child can't just develop autism, missed signs and all that malarkey.

Why don't you cite a study then?

batgoat · 11-03-2019 8:46am

wobatkicker23 wrote: »

How do you know you are talking to a nurse?

They tell you.

You're the same person who has attempted to add to their authority by claiming their husband is a gp and that he believes that vaccines are dangerous... Which I suspect isn't true at this point.

iamwhoiam · 11-03-2019 8:57am

wobatkicker23 wrote: »

How do you know you are talking to a nurse?

.

Then inform yourself if you dont believe me and others .

https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/001419.htm

Symptoms
Symptoms of SSPE occur in four general stages. With each stage, the symptoms are worse than the stage before:

Stage I: There may be personality changes, mood swings, or depression. Fever and headache may also be present. This stage may last up to 6 months.
Stage II: There may be uncontrolled movement problems including jerking and muscle spasms. Other symptoms that may occur in this stage are loss of vision, dementia, and seizures.
Stage III: Jerking movements are replaced by writhing (twisting) movements and rigidity. Death may occur from complications.
Stage IV: Areas of the brain that control breathing, heart rate, and blood pressure are damaged. This leads to coma and then death.

batgoat · 11-03-2019 9:00am

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Then inform yourself if you dont believe me and others .

https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/001419.htm

Symptoms
Symptoms of SSPE occur in four general stages. With each stage, the symptoms are worse than the stage before:

Stage I: There may be personality changes, mood swings, or depression. Fever and headache may also be present. This stage may last up to 6 months.
Stage II: There may be uncontrolled movement problems including jerking and muscle spasms. Other symptoms that may occur in this stage are loss of vision, dementia, and seizures.
Stage III: Jerking movements are replaced by writhing (twisting) movements and rigidity. Death may occur from complications.
Stage IV: Areas of the brain that control breathing, heart rate, and blood pressure are damaged. This leads to coma and then death.

The poster already seemed to think that Roald Dahl's daughter dying from it was a good thing. So I'm inclined to say they have no intention of engaging honestly.

jooksavage · 11-03-2019 9:25am

wobatkicker23 wrote: »

Without her dying we wouldn’t have gotten The BFG.

Obviously not saying her dying was a good thing necessarily but everything happens for a reason.

This sounds like something Alan Partridge would say.

astrofool · 11-03-2019 11:18am

wobatkicker23 wrote: »

Without her dying we wouldn’t have gotten The BFG.

Obviously not saying her dying was a good thing necessarily but everything happens for a reason.

I'm just happy in the knowledge that if there happens to be an afterlife, Roald Dahl will use his earned goodness to make yours a misery for eternity.

ancapailldorcha · 11-03-2019 11:25am

jooksavage wrote: »

This sounds like something Alan Partridge would say.

It's fairly typical of anti-vaxxers. They've let the concern mask slip a few times in this thread that they don't give a stuff about children's welfare.

Deebles McBeebles · 12-03-2019 3:01pm

Nice to see the Italians doing something solid about it
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47536981

iamwhoiam · 12-03-2019 3:12pm

Deebles McBeebles wrote: »

Nice to see the Italians doing something solid about it
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47536981

We should do the same . No free ECCE places for toddlers who are not vaccinated unless with a cert from a consultant to explain a reason why

No child admitted to Junior school without a vaccine pass with vaccines all given and stamped in the pass

Neyite · 12-03-2019 3:40pm

sullivlo wrote: »

A more relevant topic than yours.

I have worked on the immune response in different types of cells, from the immune system being over active in disorders like rheumatoid arthritis, to drug resistant bacteria and how our bodies respond to them, and most importantly: vaccine development.

No work was funded by NWO or any other tinfoil hat group.

Now now Sullivlo, stop waving that phd in immunology and decade or so of experience around and just accept that the wife of a GP knows more than you, m'kay?

:pac:

Igotadose · 12-03-2019 4:11pm

Deebles McBeebles wrote: »

Nice to see the Italians doing something solid about it
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47536981

Nice to see the flat-earthers that run Italy these days, losing out. Ireland should mandate vaccines, too.

Infini · 12-03-2019 4:49pm

iamwhoiam wrote: »

We should do the same . No free ECCE places for toddlers who are not vaccinated unless with a cert from a consultant to explain a reason why

No child admitted to Junior school without a vaccine pass with vaccines all given and stamped in the pass

Stop child welfare payments as well while were at it. No excuse's for not vaccinating your kids unless they have an allergic reaction of course but these anti-vax idiots are only allowing diseases we practically eradicated to regain a foothold because they refuse to listen to people who know their stuff and instead listen to bullshít spreading gobshítes on cancer media.

two wheels good · 12-03-2019 5:45pm

Encephalopathy wrote: »

According to the study, children are 7% more likely to develop autism if they don't get the MMR, they really overcooked the books with that one and what happened to the provaxxers opinion that all people diagnosed with autism is something their born with, a child can't just develop autism, missed signs and all that malarkey.

That wasn't a focus of the interview I listened to. It was a passing comment at the end. The focus was on the very convincing evidence and very large sample size and the primary conclusions regarding the people who were vaccinated.

As another poster elegantly put it "a statistical anomoly".

kylith · 12-03-2019 11:08pm

Encephalopathy wrote: »

According to the study, children are 7% more likely to develop autism if they don't get the MMR, they really overcooked the books with that one and what happened to the provaxxers opinion that all people diagnosed with autism is something their born with, a child can't just develop autism, missed signs and all that malarkey.

I'd imagine that it may have something to do with an anti-vaxxer's refusal to get vaccinated. A new study found that the risks for autism and depression are significantly higher if the mother was hospitalised with an infection during pregnancy.

"The results indicate that safeguarding against and preventing infection during pregnancy as far as possible by, for instance, following flu vaccination recommendations, may be called for," says Verena Sengpiel, an expert in obstetrics and gynaecology at the University of Gothenburg.

https://www.sciencealert.com/major-study-finds-a-health-issue-during-pregnancy-linked-to-autism-and-it-s-not-vaccines
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/article-abstract/2727135

So a woman who refuses to vaccinate her child is also likely to refuse vaccines herself, and therefore to be at higher risk of getting an infection which could impact her child.

Anti-vaxxers

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