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Anti-vaxxers

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    #2552
    Ronan|Raven
    Registered Users Posts: 8,141 ✭✭✭Ronan|Raven


    mulbot wrote: »
    Point being, if some should have compulsory Vaccines, all should. How come no silly laugh emoji for the Influenza?


    I just felt it was best to mock you over tetanus.


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    #2553
    waxmoth
    Registered Users Posts: 70 ✭✭waxmoth


    mzungu wrote: »
    Basically, for the purposes of scientific investigation they distinguished between "functioning" and "non-functioning" members of society. This is common knowledge.

    Yes, he is stating those patients are not equal so we will use them to conduct experiments. It was as wrong then as it is now.

    The common denominator of the people used is obvious and the same thing happened here in religious run institutions with the same claims of consent. https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/special-investigation--vaccine-trials-on-children-worse-than-first-thought-300247.html
    mzungu wrote: »
    Aluminium salts are used in vaccines to strengthen to immune response.

    So it is not valid, based on the definition of placebo, to use them as such in clinical trials if they are an active ingredient of the vaccine.


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    #2554
    mulbot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,824 ✭✭✭mulbot


    Ronan|Raven wrote: »
    I just felt it was best to mock you over tetanus.

    Well maybe when you grow up you should learn how to partake in a mature way.


  • Options
    #2555
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    waxmoth wrote: »

    So it is not valid, based on the definition of placebo, to use them as such in clinical trials if they are an active ingredient of the vaccine.

    Aluminium is in our drinking water. The exposure from a vaccines is a tiny % of our overall exposure from our enviorment. Insignificant really.

    Anyways it has been used in placebos before and nothing showed up so no need to repeat for each vaccine.

    https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/nine-questions-nine-answers/


  • Options
    #2556
    Ronan|Raven
    Registered Users Posts: 8,141 ✭✭✭Ronan|Raven


    mulbot wrote: »
    Well maybe when you grow up you should learn how to partake in a mature way.

    I do not really see any benefit in partaking with your arguments in any mature way.


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  • Options
    #2557
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,307 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    waxmoth wrote: »
    Yes, he is stating those patients are not equal so we will use them to conduct experiments. It was as wrong then as it is now.

    The common denominator of the people used is obvious and the same thing happened here in religious run institutions with the same claims of consent. https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/special-investigation--vaccine-trials-on-children-worse-than-first-thought-300247.html
    That was how they categorised them at the time. We do things a lot differently now. I have said before that not everything from the past is all sunshine and daffodils.

    It does not mean that vaccines are not safe.
    waxmoth wrote: »
    So it is not valid, based on the definition of placebo, to use them as such in clinical trials if they are an active ingredient of the vaccine.
    I disagree completely.

    Adjuvants have been used safely in vaccines for well over 70 years and undergo rigorous safety tests. The research shows there are no major side effects to be concerned about.


  • Options
    #2558
    mulbot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,824 ✭✭✭mulbot


    Ronan|Raven wrote: »
    I do not really see any benefit in partaking with your arguments in any mature way.

    No of course not,better to come to a discussion and post childish emoji symbols.


  • Options
    #2559
    rm75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 149 ✭✭rm75


    Orion wrote: »
    I will indeed. She's a pharmacist. Therefore she understands pharmacology. There is no conspiracy. She's not advocating for vaccines just to make a buck. Vaccines save lives.

    You're making assumptions there I'm afraid.
    Again one can advocate for vaccines and point out the conflict of interest in her ramblings.


  • Options
    #2560
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,813 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    rm75 wrote: »
    You're making assumptions there I'm afraid.
    Again one can advocate for vaccines and point out the conflict of interest in her ramblings.

    Right, so you appear to be claiming, without evidence, that someone is supporting vaccines and is being paid or coerced to do so?

    If you have no evidence for it, that's a vague (appeal to motive) assumption surely?


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    #2561
    rm75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 149 ✭✭rm75


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Right, so you appear to be claiming, without evidence, that someone is supporting vaccines and is being paid or coerced to do so?

    If you have no evidence for it, that's a vague (appeal to motive) assumption surely?

    No i didnt claim that at all, I merely pointed that she or her family profits from selling pharmaceutical products and therefore we are entitled to point out the potential conflict of interest. Once again one can be pro vaccine and question her motivation.

    You are of course free to speculate on the motivation of her statements but if you are honest you will accept that it is merely speculation on your part as you cannot know her motivation (and nor do i)


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    #2562
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    rm75 wrote: »
    No i didnt claim that at all, I merely pointed that she or her family profits from selling pharmaceutical products and therefore we are entitled to point out the potential conflict of interest. Once again one can be pro vaccine and question her motivation.

    You are of course free to speculate on the motivation of her statements but if you are honest you will accept that it is merely speculation on your part as you cannot know her motivation (and nor do i)

    There is no reason to question her motivation because the evidence completely supports her stance.

    Conflict of interest as a negative or a sign of bias is only valid if the evidence is lacking.


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    #2563
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,813 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    rm75 wrote: »
    No i didnt claim that at all, I merely pointed that she or her family profits from selling pharmaceutical products and therefore we are entitled to point out the potential conflict of interest. Once again one can be pro vaccine and question her motivation.

    Motivation for what?


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    #2564
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    rm75 wrote: »
    You're making assumptions there I'm afraid.
    Again one can advocate for vaccines and point out the conflict of interest in her ramblings.

    There is no conflict of interest and if you really think she's secretly being paid to advocate for a public health issue then this is the site you need to use to report it: https://www.sipo.ie/en/


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    #2565
    waxmoth
    Registered Users Posts: 70 ✭✭waxmoth


    jh79 wrote: »
    Aluminium is in our drinking water. The exposure from a vaccines is a tiny % of our overall exposure from our enviorment. Insignificant really.
    ...

    The bioavailability of oral aluminium from water/food is very low – somewhere in the region of 0.1 – 0.3% and the mechanism of action with intramuscular aluminium salts is completely different as it is almost 100% available and forms a long lasting reservoir which can trigger autoimmunity in the genetically and environmentally predisposed.

    The uptake of aluminium through wounds is generally considered to be of little consequence except in the situation where aluminium is injected into the body as a vaccine adjuvant. Such adjuvants are added to vaccines to potentiate the immune response of the antigen. One of two adjuvants is commonly employed, either aluminium hydroxyphosphate or aluminium oxyhydroxide–both are insoluble and adsorb charged antigens at physiological pH 7.4. As these are injected directly into the body then they circumvent the body’s protective barriers and when they dissolve they can directly enhance the body burden of aluminium. For example, twenty injections, each containing 0.5 mg of aluminium, could release 10 mg of aluminium into the body (it might take 4000 days to reach the same level of intake from normal dietary intakes) of which 0.2 mg would be retained as a persistent body burden–making vaccines an important source of body aluminium; this is particularly true for children.
    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/8291/0c21c16f662d2f5ffba0d8b75810b2dab2a6.pdf
    mzungu wrote: »
    .....
    Adjuvants have been used safely in vaccines for well over 70 years and undergo rigorous safety tests. The research shows there are no major side effects to be concerned about.

    If you include a substance in both arms of a trial you will get equivalent effects.


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    #2566
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    waxmoth wrote: »
    The bioavailability of oral aluminium from water/food is very low – somewhere in the region of 0.1 – 0.3% and the mechanism of action with intramuscular aluminium salts is completely different as it is almost 100% available and forms a long lasting reservoir which can trigger autoimmunity in the genetically and environmentally predisposed.

    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/8291/0c21c16f662d2f5ffba0d8b75810b2dab2a6.pdf



    If you include a substance in both arms of a trial you will get equivalent effects.


    But there is no evidence that this amount of aluminium is harmful.

    Also whatever combination of vaccine vs placebo / saline you where asking for has already been done. If aluminium is a problem then why didn't show up in those clinical trials?


  • Options
    #2567
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,854 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    TheRepentent wrote:
    Need legislation to protect the majority....no vaccinations no school/creche.
    Yeah you really thought that one through. Ban innocent kids from education.


  • Options
    #2568
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,457 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    eagle eye wrote: »
    Yeah you really thought that one through. Ban innocent kids from education.

    Rather see it as protecting innocent kids from life threatening diseases due to selfish/uneducated parents myself.


  • Options
    #2569
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,137 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    mulbot wrote: »
    Influenza, tetanus.

    You should get tetanus boosters. Anti-vaxx parents ended up costing the Oregon taxpayer over $800,000 for the 8 weeks intensive treatment + emergency airlift their son received after contracting tetanus. He cut himself, parents bandaged him up, but tetanus set in. Put the kid through agonies - convulsions, lockjaw, etc.
    Tetanus is rare but it can happen.

    At least the parents were comfortable in their righteousness.

    https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/433160-unvaccinated-6-year-old-boy-from-oregon-was-states-first-tetanus-case-in


  • Options
    #2570
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,137 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Up to 71 confirmed cases in Washington state, hundreds of students not allowed into school due to potentially having been exposed, so all those parents have to cope with the kids now being home during the day. The anti-vax terrorists just keep on giving.

    http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2019/mar/07/cost-of-measles-outbreak-800-students-kept-out-of-/


  • Options
    #2571
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Igotadose wrote: »
    You should get tetanus boosters. Anti-vaxx parents ended up costing the Oregon taxpayer over $800,000 for the 8 weeks intensive treatment + emergency airlift their son received after contracting tetanus. He cut himself, parents bandaged him up, but tetanus set in. Put the kid through agonies - convulsions, lockjaw, etc.
    Tetanus is rare but it can happen.

    At least the parents were comfortable in their righteousness.

    https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/433160-unvaccinated-6-year-old-boy-from-oregon-was-states-first-tetanus-case-in

    This bit totally gets me:
    the boy’s parents declined a second dose of the tetanus-fighting medication and “any other recommended immunizations.”


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  • Options
    #2572
    TheRepentent
    Registered Users Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭TheRepentent


    eagle eye wrote: »
    Yeah you really thought that one through. Ban innocent kids from education.
    I have thought it through plenty....it is sad that innocent kids have to suffer becasue their parents are fukwits , but lack of access to education gets trumped by the fact they could be vectors of contagious dieseases that can have life changing effects.


    And the issue could easily be fixed by their parents.

    Wanna support genocide?Cheer on the murder of women and children?The Ruzzians aren't rapey enough for you? Morally bankrupt cockroaches and islamaphobes , Israel needs your help NOW!!

    http://tinyurl.com/2ksb4ejk


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_war_crimes

    https://www.btselem.org/



  • Options
    #2573
    Encephalopathy
    Registered Users Posts: 31 ✭Encephalopathy


    jh79 wrote: »
    But there is no evidence that this amount of aluminium is harmful.

    Also whatever combination of vaccine vs placebo / saline you where asking for has already been done. If aluminium is a problem then why didn't show up in those clinical trials?

    If there's a vaccine with a aluminium adjuvant Vs saline placebo clinical trials, please share.

    If it's from the same place you got your information about aluminium ingestion Vs injection are the same, please just ignore my request.


  • Options
    #2574
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,307 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    waxmoth wrote: »
    If you include a substance in both arms of a trial you will get equivalent effects.

    Encephalopathy wrote: »
    If there's a vaccine with a aluminium adjuvant Vs saline placebo clinical trials, please share.
    From the WHO expert panel recommendations...
    Randomised, placebo-controlled trials are widely considered the gold standard for evaluating the safety and efficacy of a new vaccine. In these trials, participants are randomized to receive either the vaccine under investigation or a placebo (i.e. an inert substance, such as a saline injection). Randomisation and the use of placebo interventions are designed to control for confounding effects, such that significant differences in disease incidence or adverse effects between the vaccine and control groups can likely be attributed to the vaccine. However, randomised, placebo-controlled trial designs often raise ethical concerns when participants in the control arm are deprived of an existing vaccine. Furthermore, testing a new vaccine against placebo is scientifically and ethically fraught when the hypothesis being tested is whether an experimental vaccine is more efficacious than one already in use in the same or in other settings.
    It would be unethical to use the placebo when a safe vaccine already exists as this would leave the study participant unprotected.

    It is ethical to use an adjuvant instead of the vaccine in trials where the vaccine will have that adjuvant in it. Aluminium adjuvants can be used as placebo as they have been around long enough to have been studied for safety.

    The study linked above goes more in-depth into acceptable and unacceptable uses placebos in clinical trials. You can peruse at your leisure.

    As regards saline placebo, some vaccine studies do use them. A few are listed below:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25371534
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29443825
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29239682
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29217375
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28720281
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28522338
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28498853
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28376743
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27895921
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26411885


  • Options
    #2575
    wobatkicker23
    Registered Users Posts: 113 ✭✭wobatkicker23


    Some of the sheeple on this thread are outrageously niaeve. None of you have an understanding of how vaccines work or the side affects they may incur but are happy to brand anti-vaxxers as loons.

    I haven’t vaccinated my son and won’t be doing so in the future. Look into it before you declare judgement.


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    #2576
    rawn
    Registered Users Posts: 3,093 ✭✭✭rawn


    wobatkicker23 wrote: »
    Some of the sheeple on this thread are outrageously niaeve. None of you have an understanding of how vaccines work or the side affects they may incur but are happy to brand anti-vaxxers as loons.

    I haven’t vaccinated my son and won’t be doing so in the future. Look into it before you declare judgement.

    Please, do explain.


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    #2577
    brightspark
    Registered Users Posts: 2,637 ✭✭✭brightspark


    wobatkicker23 wrote: »
    Some of the sheeple on this thread are outrageously niaeve. None of you have an understanding of how vaccines work or the side affects they may incur but are happy to brand anti-vaxxers as loons.

    I haven’t vaccinated my son and won’t be doing so in the future. Look into it before you declare judgement.

    You are right, I have only a slight idea of how vaccines work, however my doctor who has the training to understand how they work considers the risk of side effects a minor issue compared to the life threatening aspects of the diseases.

    Any one who believes unqualified conspiracy theorists should look further into it before risking peoples lives.


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    #2578
    m5ex9oqjawdg2i
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,221 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    wobatkicker23 wrote: »
    Some of the sheeple on this thread are outrageously niaeve. None of you have an understanding of how vaccines work or the side affects they may incur but are happy to brand anti-vaxxers as loons.

    I haven’t vaccinated my son and won’t be doing so in the future. Look into it before you declare judgement.

    /cringe

    Why have you not vaccinated your son?


    Antivaxxers should be shipped off to some remote island in order to keep the sane safe...


  • Options
    #2579
    wobatkicker23
    Registered Users Posts: 113 ✭✭wobatkicker23


    brightspark wrote: »
    You are right, I have only a slight idea of how vaccines work, however my doctor who has the training to understand how they work considers the risk of side effects a minor issue compared to the life threatening aspects of the diseases.

    Any one who believes unqualified conspiracy theorists should look further into it before risking peoples lives.

    I have all the knowledge and textbooks that are available to the doctor on the subject.

    How many times have you heard of a GP saying to cut down on fats when they are meant to be knowledgeable in terms of nutrition?


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    #2580
    francois
    Registered Users Posts: 3,421 ✭✭✭francois


    wobatkicker23 wrote: »
    sheeple

    'nuff said


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    #2581
    brightspark
    Registered Users Posts: 2,637 ✭✭✭brightspark


    wobatkicker23 wrote: »
    I have all the knowledge and textbooks that are available to the doctor on the subject.

    How many times have you heard of a GP saying to cut down on fats when they are meant to be knowledgeable in terms of nutrition?


    So you know all about the serious complications of so called "childhood diseases" and still don't think vaccination is a good idea?

    It seems to be true that anti-vaxxers think a dead child is better than an immunised child


This discussion has been closed.
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