Sea Shepherd

CJhaughey · 28-02-2013 12:01am

Freedive Ireland wrote: »

So from what I am reading there its just all politics. Create a sanctuary but its not really going to be a sanctuary if you follow this clause of research. Kind of we are going to cut your wages but its not really a cut its just an adjustment.

So after the ICRW the IWC was set up, this again on the first bit of text on their front page copied and pasted states

"The International Whaling Commission is the global intergovernmental body charged with the conservation of whales and the management of whaling."
"In 1986 the Commission introduced zero catch limits for commercial whaling. This provision is still in place today, although the Commission continues to set catch limits for aboriginal subsistence whaling."

So for the last 27 or so years they have advocated a no take situation but you seem to imply their main goal is the management of whaling?

The IWC was set up to manage whaling.
The original purpose was to conserve whale stocks for the purposes of an orderly development of the whaling industry.

Due to political pressures the anti-whaling agenda has been pushed to the forefront, so much so that a draft management plan to resume limited commercial hunting was shelved in 1991
This led to the chairman of the scientific committee resigning.
The science said the stocks were fine and that 2000 Minke could be harvested but it was parked because of political pressure.

It somes down to the rational and sustainable use of resources.

andy_g · 28-02-2013 12:59am

tricky D wrote: »

Actually, if anything, their actions are undermining the responsible campaigning carried out by the likes of Greenpeace, Save the Whales et al, who, last time I checked, generally take the policy of observe and report and leave the enforcement of laws up to those whose task that legally is. SS take the law into their own hands and cross into illegality time and again. These actions actually are, if anything, damaging other more realistic, responsible and safe efforts to promote whale conservation.

Sorry to jump in on ya tricky but to be fair after being on a few campaigns i havent seen a green peace vessel anywhere near the southern ocean let alone out of their home port since 2006.

Yet they claim they have been there every year and recently tried to say that own sscs vessels in the ross sea/southern ocean.

Their fundraising teams have claimed the above. All i see green peace do is holding banners (Protest organisation) sscs are not a protest organisation and never will be they are a direct action organisation and it tends to be more effective/efficeant.

@Free dive ireland im not on the sscs stall at the show but will be there sunday i'll give ya a debate from crew point of view

Discodog · 28-02-2013 1:26am

The IWC are mired in controversy. Counties that don't even have a coastline have been bribed to support whaling. Japan has spent a fortune buying IWC votes.

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/Environment/article316610.ece

CJhaughey · 28-02-2013 9:44am

Discodog wrote: »

The IWC are mired in controversy. Counties that don't even have a coastline have been bribed to support whaling. Japan has spent a fortune buying IWC votes.

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/Environment/article316610.ece

Countries without a coastline like Switzerland, Hungary and Austria?

Discodog · 28-02-2013 10:59am

CJhaughey wrote: »

Countries without a coastline like Switzerland, Hungary and Austria?

The Sunday Times found 6 members of the IWC who admitted to accepting bribes & even prostitutes in return for supporting Japan.

Some of the countries are land locked & have no fishing fleets. The suggestion was that some of these countries were persuaded to join the IWC by Japan in return for bribes.

CJhaughey · 28-02-2013 11:24am

Discodog wrote: »

The Sunday Times found 6 members of the IWC who admitted to accepting bribes & even prostitutes in return for supporting Japan.

Some of the countries are land locked & have no fishing fleets. The suggestion was that some of these countries were persuaded to join the IWC by Japan in return for bribes.

Same can be said for the EU trying to get members to join.
Anyway, this is way OT now, this should be primarily about the seamanship or gross lack of it demonstrated by the SS

Discodog · 28-02-2013 6:52pm

CJhaughey wrote: »

Same can be said for the EU trying to get members to join.
Anyway, this is way OT now, this should be primarily about the seamanship or gross lack of it demonstrated by the SS

But if the Japanese are happy to take part in corruption & bribery they are just as likely to lie regarding seamanship issues.

long range shooter · 28-02-2013 7:10pm

Discodog wrote: »

But if the Japanese are happy to take part in corruption & bribery they are just as likely to lie regarding seamanship issues.

I don't think they call it whale wars for nothing,and I think that goes both ways.:D
Everything is allowed in love and war;)
The Japanese does it to get back commercial whaling,and sea Shepard does it to get more money and supporters,it's no end to this war.:eek:

Cookie_Monster · 28-02-2013 7:35pm

long range shooter wrote: »

I don't think they call it whale wars for nothing,and I think that goes both ways.:D
Everything is allowed in love and war;)
The Japanese does it to get back commercial whaling,and sea Shepard does it to get more money and supporters,it's no end to this war.:eek:

There's a simple and quick end if SS were actually serious and prepared to face up to their actions and thats to sink the whaling fleet once any ship is found. No money in that though

long range shooter · 28-02-2013 7:42pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

There's a simple and quick end if SS were actually serious and prepared to face up to their actions and thats to sink the whaling fleet once any ship is found. No money in that though

Sinking another ship is actually a declaration of war,according to international law.
the SS and co have ship registered in Holland and Australia,I don't think their governments wants war with Japan over whale research.:rolleyes:
And were does SS Get Their money from to keep up with the increasing maintenance needed to run Their ships??

Cardinal Richelieu · 28-02-2013 10:54pm

Interesting point here about why Japan can't be seen to back down.

The Lowy Institute

Rear Admiral (ret'd) James Goldrick AO, CSC

What Sea Shepherd is doing may well contribute to the emotional entrenchment of this outlook as Japan comes to see itself as embattled and alone in the maritime domain. If Japan is seen as being weak with Sea Shepherd, the argument will run, how will China interpret this but as a signal to continue its own hard line approach? The Japanese Prime Minister's personal electoral base is in the same region as the whaling industry and this can only increase the pressure.

Further Reading: http://www.lowyinterpreter.org/post/2013/02/28/Japanese-whaling-Sea-Shepherd-doesnt-help.aspx

Discodog · 01-03-2013 1:29am

Cardinal Richelieu wrote: »

Interesting point here about why Japan can't be seen to back down.

The Lowy Institute

Whether or not the Sea Shepherds entrench the Japanese they do prevent Whales from being killed.

long range shooter · 01-03-2013 1:42am

Discodog wrote: »

Whether or not the Sea Shepherds entrench the Japanese they do prevent Whales from being killed.

And those whales are killed legally,so why are thy there?

Discodog · 01-03-2013 11:02am

long range shooter wrote: »

And those whales are killed legally,so why are thy there?

Because the organisation that made the supposed law is corrupt & millions of people find the inhumane killing of Whales to be utterly abhorrent.

The Sea Shepherds are there & they will remain because people support them.

World history is full of people who had to challenge immoral law.

long range shooter · 01-03-2013 12:11pm

Discodog wrote: »

Because the organisation that made the supposed law is corrupt & millions of people find the inhumane killing of Whales to be utterly abhorrent.

The Sea Shepherds are there & they will remain because people support them.

World history is full of people who had to challenge immoral law.

You will find corruption and bribery in any organisation today,so that's nothing new really.
No matter whether you think all whales (or cows, sheep, goats and rabbits) have the right to live without the threat of being eaten or otherwise treated as a resource by humans, the Sea Shepherd group encourages illegal and potentially lethal activity.
Over centuries, seafaring nations have worked cooperatively to establish protocols governing the safe navigation of their vessels on the waters of the world.

The laws are designed to protect humans at sea.

Sea Shepherd breaches these laws. It flouts them arrogantly and its supporters claim immunity because of their higher moral cause – saving whales.

In a 2002 testimony to the US Congress, an FBI official mentioned the actions of Sea Shepherd Conservation Society in the context of eco-terrorism.The Sea Shepherd Conservation Society intervenes against whaling, seal hunting, and fishing operations with direct action tactics. In 1986, the group caused nearly 1.8 million dollars worth of damage to equipment used by whalers in Iceland. In 1992, they sabotaged two Japanese ships that were drift-net fishing for squid by cutting their nets and throwing stink bombs on board the boats.

And I don't think all bribery allegations put out goes in Sea shepards favour.

http://www.maltatoday.com.mt/en/newsdetails/news/national/Government-initiates-libel-proceedings-against-Sea-Shepherd-founder-20120306

andy_g · 01-03-2013 5:05pm

long range shooter wrote: »

In 1992, they sabotaged two Japanese ships that were drift-net fishing for squid by cutting their nets and throwing stink bombs on board the boats.

http://www.maltatoday.com.mt/en/newsdetails/news/national/Government-initiates-libel-proceedings-against-Sea-Shepherd-founder-20120306

Ah Drift netting not only does it kill but it kills indiscrmenently, it takes anything and everything that you can use and not use plus when they cut the nets they were not marked according to the protocols for marking drift nets. just like long lines.

Also since your linking Maltese news im gunna jump in on it as i have contacts out in malta and im heavily involved in SSCS setting up the new chapter there.

Under Maltese law everything caught must go to the fish market in Valletta, another organisation im involved with in Malta are at the market every morning looking for ilegally landed sharks and looking for shark egg cases.

From making many trips to the market over the last three years i have never seen tuna landed there but yet you seeing it being transfered within Maltese water's to two japanese vessels registered in Panama, The Tuna Lady and Tuna Queen both operating illegally in the water's around Malta.

So is the Blue fin tuna bribery happening down there? Most likely why you ask?

As all the tuna is not being landed in malta like it should be under their laws.
Just like long lining down there the lines are not marked correctly and yet they allow illegal long lining in their waters.

long range shooter · 01-03-2013 6:21pm

andy_g wrote: »

Ah Drift netting not only does it kill but it kills indiscrmenently, it takes anything and everything that you can use and not use plus when they cut the nets they were not marked according to the protocols for marking drift nets. just like long lines.

Also since your linking Maltese news im gunna jump in on it as i have contacts out in malta and im heavily involved in SSCS setting up the new chapter there.

Under Maltese law everything caught must go to the fish market in Valletta, another organisation im involved with in Malta are at the market every morning looking for ilegally landed sharks and looking for shark egg cases.

From making many trips to the market over the last three years i have never seen tuna landed there but yet you seeing it being transfered within Maltese water's to two japanese vessels registered in Panama, The Tuna Lady and Tuna Queen both operating illegally in the water's around Malta.

So is the Blue fin tuna bribery happening down there? Most likely why you ask?

As all the tuna is not being landed in malta like it should be under their laws.
Just like long lining down there the lines are not marked correctly and yet they allow illegal long lining in their waters.

But leaving a diver inside the pen seriously injured in the process,that's not so important,obviously.:rolleyes:
The sea Shepard can not police the oceans and make their own laws,that's my point.
It's just a matter of time before someone gets killed.
The rest is politics,leave that to the governments and Eu to sort that out.
Nothing to do with Sea Shepard.

andy_g · 01-03-2013 6:35pm

long range shooter wrote: »

But leaving a diver inside the pen seriously injured in the process,that's not so important,obviously.:rolleyes:
The sea Shepard can not police the oceans and make their own laws,that's my point.
It's just a matter of time before someone gets killed.
The rest is politics,leave that to the governments and Eu to sort that out.
Nothing to do with Sea Shepard.

Oh yeah the EU and government that are getting money in their pockets from brown envelope sources good call.

Plus in malta they allow people to snorkel and dive in these pens for 50euro go figure?

long range shooter · 01-03-2013 6:55pm

andy_g wrote: »

Oh yeah the EU and government that are getting money in their pockets from brown envelope sources good call.

Plus in malta they allow people to snorkel and dive in these pens for 50euro go figure?

That's probably why the Steve Irwine is registered as a motor yacht,go figure:rolleyes:
And off course that allows the sea Shepard do ram them any way they please.,go figure.
And i don't think you have to travel to far to find brown envelopes in this country either.

Discodog · 01-03-2013 6:56pm

long range shooter wrote: »

You will find corruption and bribery in any organisation today,so that's nothing new really.
No matter whether you think all whales (or cows, sheep, goats and rabbits) have the right to live without the threat of being eaten or otherwise treated as a resource by humans, the Sea Shepherd group encourages illegal and potentially lethal activity.
Over centuries, seafaring nations have worked cooperatively to establish protocols governing the safe navigation of their vessels on the waters of the world.

The laws are designed to protect humans at sea.

Sea Shepherd breaches these laws. It flouts them arrogantly and its supporters claim immunity because of their higher moral cause – saving whales.

In a 2002 testimony to the US Congress, an FBI official mentioned the actions of Sea Shepherd Conservation Society in the context of eco-terrorism.The Sea Shepherd Conservation Society intervenes against whaling, seal hunting, and fishing operations with direct action tactics. In 1986, the group caused nearly 1.8 million dollars worth of damage to equipment used by whalers in Iceland. In 1992, they sabotaged two Japanese ships that were drift-net fishing for squid by cutting their nets and throwing stink bombs on board the boats.

And I don't think all bribery allegations put out goes in Sea shepards favour.

http://www.maltatoday.com.mt/en/newsdetails/news/national/Government-initiates-libel-proceedings-against-Sea-Shepherd-founder-20120306

So you think that bribery & corruption are acceptable because it happens everywhere.

You cannot see the difference between a domestical animal that is humanely killed & a wild animal that's chased to the point of exhaustion. It is impossible to kill a Whale humanely.

The strange thing is that the Sea Shepherds are constantly accussed of breaking the law but they still operate. They don't hide like fugitives & some countries like Australia support them.

By the way bribery/corruption are totally different to libel.

long range shooter · 01-03-2013 7:09pm

Discodog wrote: »

So you think that bribery & corruption are acceptable because it happens everywhere.

You cannot see the difference between a domestical animal that is humanely killed & a wild animal that's chased to the point of exhaustion. It is impossible to kill a Whale humanely.

The strange thing is that the Sea Shepherds are constantly accussed of breaking the law but they still operate. They don't hide like fugitives & some countries like Australia support them.

By the way bribery/corruption are totally different to libel.

Is it,please show me some evidence that whales can't be killed humanely,does the penthrite harpoon ring a bell?
They don't hide like fugitives?why is Paul Watson on Interpols wanted list?
And australia supports them?
On January 5 the Steve Irwin arrived in Fremantle Harbour escorting the severely damaged Brigitte Bardot from the Southern Ocean, monitored by the Japanese whaling ship MV Shōnan Maru 2.While in port, the Steve Irwin defied an order by the Fremantle harbourmaster to lower her Jolly Roger-styled flag after docking in Fremantle.After departing the port, a team from environmentalist group "Forest Rescue Australia" approached and illegally
boarded the security ship Shōnan Maru 2, climbing over spikes and razor wire in international waters off the coast of Bunbury, Western Australia with the assistance of small boat crews from the Steve Irwin.While Japan agreed to release the activists, the Australian Prime Minister Julia Gillard slammed the action as "unacceptable" and warned that others who carry out similar protests would be "charged and convicted".

Yep,they love them in Australia

tricky D · 01-03-2013 7:17pm

Discodog wrote: »

You cannot see the difference between a domestical animal that is humanely killed & a wild animal that's chased to the point of exhaustion. It is impossible to kill a Whale humanely.

The way we mass produce food from animals is hardly humane: debeaking of chickens, breeding cows to the point where their legs are overstrained, removing calves' natural food so we can get dairy, confining sows as they suckle, etc. The list goes on and on.

Discodog wrote: »

The strange thing is that the Sea Shepherds are constantly accussed of breaking the law but they still operate. They don't hide like fugitives & some countries like Australia support them.

Paul Watson has two red notices against him and has jumped bail, yet recently rejoined the Steve Irwin. A fugitive in hiding is an apt description.

Discodog · 01-03-2013 7:36pm

tricky D wrote: »

The way we mass produce food from animals is hardly humane: debeaking of chickens, breeding cows to the point where their legs are overstrained, removing calves' natural food so we can get dairy, confining sows as they suckle, etc. The list goes on and on.

Paul Watson has two red notices against him and has jumped bail, yet recently rejoined the Steve Irwin. A fugitive in hiding is an apt description.

If we chased Cows, some with calves, across fields until they collapsed with exhaustion there would be outrage. Of course food production could be more humane but Japan & Norway aren't short of alternatives to Whale meat. Japan has an unwanted warehouse full of it.

In hiding aboard one of the most well known vessels in the world, who's location is known & is on tv.

long range shooter · 01-03-2013 7:49pm

Discodog wrote: »

If we chased Cows, some with calves, across fields until they collapsed with exhaustion there would be outrage. Of course food production could be more humane but Japan & Norway aren't short of alternatives to Whale meat. Japan has an unwanted warehouse full of it.

In hiding aboard one of the most well known vessels in the world, who's location is known & is on tv.

Who's chasing anyone,do you know anything about whaling?
This has been mentioned in previous post If you bother looking.
The same goes with humane killing.
Hiding on board yes,but how often are they in port??
And alternatives aren't the issue as long as its sustainable.the same goes with any other animal on this planet.

Discodog · 01-03-2013 7:55pm

long range shooter wrote: »

Is it,please show me some evidence that whales can't be killed humanely,does the penthrite harpoon ring a bell?
They don't hide like fugitives?why is Paul Watson on Interpols wanted list?
And australia supports them?
On January 5 the Steve Irwin arrived in Fremantle Harbour escorting the severely damaged Brigitte Bardot from the Southern Ocean, monitored by the Japanese whaling ship MV Shōnan Maru 2.While in port, the Steve Irwin defied an order by the Fremantle harbourmaster to lower her Jolly Roger-styled flag after docking in Fremantle.After departing the port, a team from environmentalist group "Forest Rescue Australia" approached and illegally
boarded the security ship Shōnan Maru 2, climbing over spikes and razor wire in international waters off the coast of Bunbury, Western Australia with the assistance of small boat crews from the Steve Irwin.While Japan agreed to release the activists, the Australian Prime Minister Julia Gillard slammed the action as "unacceptable" and warned that others who carry out similar protests would be "charged and convicted".

Yep,they love them in Australia

A typical Whale chase can last for over an hour with females being separated from their calves. In the past people didn't care. Now thanks to technology we can all appreciate that the Whale feels fear & distress.

We don't need Whale meat. Japan & Norway speak of culture & tradition. It used to be part of our tradition to have children working in factories or to bait bears with dogs. Over time we developed a moral conscience & abolished such traditions.

In Japan & Norway it's illegal to terrorise a dog but it's fine to do the same to a Whale.

Why don't the Australians arrest the Sea Shepherds when they are in port?

andy_g · 01-03-2013 8:14pm

long range shooter wrote: »

That's probably why the Steve Irwine is registered as a motor yacht,go figure:rolleyes:
And off course that allows the sea Shepard do ram them any way they please.,go figure.
And i don't think you have to travel to far to find brown envelopes in this country either.

At the time that the nets were rammed they were actually adrift and hazzard to navigation i remember that well.

Also closer to home we know it happens.

long range shooter · 01-03-2013 8:16pm

Discodog wrote: »

A typical Whale chase can last for over an hour with females being separated from their calves. In the past people didn't care. Now thanks to technology we can all appreciate that the Whale feels fear & distress.

We don't need Whale meat. Japan & Norway speak of culture & tradition. It used to be part of our tradition to have children working in factories or to bait bears with dogs. Over time we developed a moral conscience & abolished such traditions.

In Japan & Norway it's illegal to terrorise a dog but it's fine to do the same to a Whale.

Why don't the Australians arrest the Sea Shepherds when they are in port?

Are you saying that's its inhumane to kill a whale when it dies instantly when hit by a penthrite harpoon?
The results from 2000-2002 with the new penthrite grenade showed that at least 80% of the whales were rendered unconscious or dead instantly. The average TTD was about 2 minutes using the criteria adopted by the IWC (IWC/33/15), which may include periods when animals have been unconscious or already dead (IWC/47/18, IWC/51/12, IWC/58/WKM&AWI 21). Very few animals (< 0.5%) needed a second harpoon shot.
We don't need whale meat,do we need chicken,beef or pork?have you ever tried it?
In up to four communities in Japan and about six in Northern Norway whaling is the economic mainstay. It is a decisive factor in keeping people from migrating to the big cities as well as a safeguard against the build-up of ecologically harmful industries in remote settlements.
No whale stock is any longer under hunting pressure from competing whaling efforts. Therefore whalers now have a vested interest in keeping stocks at a sustainable level. In the years of competitive whaling - which lasted for almost five centuries - this was different, because a whaler who spared a whale "for tomorrow" only worked into the pockets of rival whalers.

When was the last time they protested in Australia?

tricky D · 01-03-2013 8:19pm

Discodog wrote: »

A typical Whale chase can last for over an hour with females being separated from their calves. In the past people didn't care. Now thanks to technology we can all appreciate that the Whale feels fear & distress.

That's romantic and selective anthropomorphising. We treat other animals much worse by breeding them into unnatural, grotesque, often diseased, meat factories on legs - for all of their confined lives and all on an industrial scale, which makes the very limited whaling look like a drop in the ocean (pun not intended) of our cruelty.

long range shooter · 01-03-2013 8:24pm

andy_g wrote: »

At the time that the nets were rammed they were actually adrift and hazzard to navigation i remember that well.

Also closer to home we know it happens.

Well I guess that's not the only time they are a hazard to navigation;)

andy_g · 01-03-2013 8:25pm

long range shooter wrote: »

Are you saying that's its inhumane to kill a whale when it dies instantly when hit by a penthrite harpoon?
The results from 2000-2002 with the new penthrite grenade showed that at least 80% of the whales were rendered unconscious or dead instantly. The average TTD was about 2 minutes using the criteria adopted by the IWC (IWC/33/15), which may include periods when animals have been unconscious or already dead (IWC/47/18, IWC/51/12, IWC/58/WKM&AWI 21). Very few animals (< 0.5%) needed a second harpoon shot.
We don't need whale meat,do we need chicken,beef or pork?have you ever tried it?
In up to four communities in Japan and about six in Northern Norway whaling is the economic mainstay. It is a decisive factor in keeping people from migrating to the big cities as well as a safeguard against the build-up of ecologically harmful industries in remote settlements.
No whale stock is any longer under hunting pressure from competing whaling efforts. Therefore whalers now have a vested interest in keeping stocks at a sustainable level. In the years of competitive whaling - which lasted for almost five centuries - this was different, because a whaler who spared a whale "for tomorrow" only worked into the pockets of rival whalers.

When was the last time they protested in Australia?

So you keep saying it humane however the other 20% ya have to question.
whale hunting ehem* driving and harpooning not humane.

Thats like saying if i shot someone and i was canaible its for food and i'd get off scot free?

long range shooter · 01-03-2013 8:31pm

andy_g wrote: »

So you keep saying it humane however the other 20% ya have to question.
whale hunting ehem* driving and harpooning not humane.

Thats like saying if i shot someone and i was canaible its for food and i'd get off scot free?

The modern penthrite grenade explodes with such a vibration force and frequency that unconsciousness - and usually death - result instantaneously. Unacceptably long killing times only occur as an "accident", which can also happen in a state-of-the-art abattoir, where an animal may occasionally bleed to death or be scalded without having been stunned first.

Physical model experiments, as well as simulations of the effects of grenade harpooning on anaesthetized pigs fully immersed in water suggest that the shock effect of the blast from the currently used grenades is relatively minor. Also the animals are not stunned to death, but loose consciousness and subsequently die from hemorrhage. Survival time is therefore very short if the animals are hit in the thorax, and is likely to be further reduced if the charge which is currently used is increased, or, even better, if shrapnel (fragment scattering) grenades are used instead of blast grenades.

http://www.unboundmedicine.com/medline/citation/11126573/Simulations_of_the_effect_of_currently_used_grenade_harpoons_for_the_killing_of_whales_using_a_pig_model_

andy_g · 01-03-2013 8:50pm

yeah on pigs nough said, plus if a whale is under water by a few meters and water being an uncompressable liquid its only going to injure not kill

long range shooter · 01-03-2013 8:57pm

andy_g wrote: »

yeah on pigs nough said, plus if a whale is under water by a few meters and water being an uncompressable liquid its only going to injure not kill

Why do you think they use pigs for ballistics testing of firearms?
And where is your proof of that?

andy_g · 01-03-2013 9:11pm

long range shooter wrote: »

Why do you think they use pigs for ballistics testing of firearms?
And where is your proof of that?

Incorrect ballistics gel is now used i know as i work around firearms. as with water i scuba dive as a hobby plus its simple physics regarding liquids.

Discodog · 01-03-2013 9:28pm

tricky D wrote: »

That's romantic and selective anthropomorphising. We treat other animals much worse by breeding them into unnatural, grotesque, often diseased, meat factories on legs - for all of their confined lives and all on an industrial scale, which makes the very limited whaling look like a drop in the ocean (pun not intended) of our cruelty.

Any animal cruelty is wrong. We should all be aiming to reduce suffering. You cannot ignore cruelty on the basis that worse may be happening elsewhere.

The Norwegian government veterinary inspector's report on the 1994 minke whale hunt included that: "One inspector reported that a vessel had chased a whale for at least 6-7 hours" (Anon 1994).

Cardinal Richelieu · 01-03-2013 9:35pm

long range shooter wrote: »

Why do you think they use pigs for ballistics testing of firearms?
And where is your proof of that?

Pigs are used to simulate battlefield injuries for medical training rather than ballistic testing.

long range shooter · 01-03-2013 10:58pm

andy_g wrote: »

Incorrect ballistics gel is now used i know as i work around firearms. as with water i scuba dive as a hobby plus its simple physics regarding liquids.

Not the hydrostatic shock caused by a exploding harpoon,that's different.

Hydrostatic shock or hydraulic shock describes the observation that a penetrating projectile can produce remote wounding and incapacitating effects in living targets through a hydraulic effect in their liquid-filled tissues, in addition to local effects in tissue caused by direct impact.
Human autopsy results have demonstrated brain hemorrhaging from fatal hits to the chest, including cases with handgun bullets.Thirty-three cases of fatal penetrating chest wounds by a single bullet were selected from a much larger set by excluding all other traumatic factors, including past history.
Frank Chamberlin, a World War II trauma surgeon and ballistics researcher, noted remote pressure wave effects. Col. Chamberlin described what he called “explosive effects” and “hydraulic reaction” of bullets in tissue. ...liquids are put in motion by ‘shock waves’ or hydraulic effects... with liquid filled tissues, the effects and destruction of tissues extend in all directions far beyond the wound axis.He avoided the ambiguous use of the term “shock” because it can refer to either a specific kind of pressure wave associated with explosions and supersonic projectiles or to a medical condition in the body.
Col. Chamberlin recognized that many theories have been advanced in wound ballistics. During World War II he commanded an 8,500-bed hospital center that treated over 67,000 patients during the fourteen months that he operated it. P.O. Ackley estimates that 85% of the patients were suffering from gunshot wounds. Col. Chamberlin spent many hours interviewing patients as to their reactions to bullet wounds. He conducted many live animal experiments after his tour of duty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock

long range shooter · 01-03-2013 11:05pm

Discodog wrote: »

Any animal cruelty is wrong. We should all be aiming to reduce suffering. You cannot ignore cruelty on the basis that worse may be happening elsewhere.

The Norwegian government veterinary inspector's report on the 1994 minke whale hunt included that: "One inspector reported that a vessel had chased a whale for at least 6-7 hours" (Anon 1994).

The numbers are from 2000-2002,season,it's gone even better today when compulsory training of the harpoon shooters have come in.Every harpoon shooter have to a shooting test done before they are allowed to hunt whales.
If they don't pass,they are not allowed to hunt!

http://youtu.be/K81fVqDho7Q

andy_g · 02-03-2013 12:37am

long range shooter wrote: »

Not the hydrostatic shock caused by a exploding harpoon,that's different.

Hydrostatic shock or hydraulic shock describes the observation that a penetrating projectile can produce remote wounding and incapacitating effects in living targets through a hydraulic effect in their liquid-filled tissues, in addition to local effects in tissue caused by direct impact.
Human autopsy results have demonstrated brain hemorrhaging from fatal hits to the chest, including cases with handgun bullets.Thirty-three cases of fatal penetrating chest wounds by a single bullet were selected from a much larger set by excluding all other traumatic factors, including past history.
Frank Chamberlin, a World War II trauma surgeon and ballistics researcher, noted remote pressure wave effects. Col. Chamberlin described what he called “explosive effects” and “hydraulic reaction” of bullets in tissue. ...liquids are put in motion by ‘shock waves’ or hydraulic effects... with liquid filled tissues, the effects and destruction of tissues extend in all directions far beyond the wound axis.He avoided the ambiguous use of the term “shock” because it can refer to either a specific kind of pressure wave associated with explosions and supersonic projectiles or to a medical condition in the body.
Col. Chamberlin recognized that many theories have been advanced in wound ballistics. During World War II he commanded an 8,500-bed hospital center that treated over 67,000 patients during the fourteen months that he operated it. P.O. Ackley estimates that 85% of the patients were suffering from gunshot wounds. Col. Chamberlin spent many hours interviewing patients as to their reactions to bullet wounds. He conducted many live animal experiments after his tour of duty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock

Hydrostatic shock with surface water tension doesnt translate below the water line correctly again simple physics. Plus do ya trust all from wiki?

long range shooter · 02-03-2013 1:00am

andy_g wrote: »

Hydrostatic shock with surface water tension doesnt translate below the water line correctly again simple physics. Plus do ya trust all from wiki?

No,but it happens on impact,combined with the explosion of the penthrite grenade.
And You would also have a blast induced neurotrauma.

andy_g · 02-03-2013 1:39am

long range shooter wrote: »

No,but it happens on impact,combined with the explosion of the penthrite grenade.
And You would also have a blast induced neurotrauma.

If within a few feet of the blast yes harpoon has a depth of about 10ft after it hits the water shock wave wouldnt be an issue beyond 25ft and would stun the animal not kill it outright.

So there for when tied to the side of a whaling vessel drowns itself or drowns on its own blood! Still humane enough for ya?

long range shooter · 02-03-2013 1:58am

andy_g wrote: »

If within a few feet of the blast yes harpoon has a depth of about 10ft after it hits the water shock wave wouldnt be an issue beyond 25ft and would stun the animal not kill it outright.

So there for when tied to the side of a whaling vessel drowns itself or drowns on its own blood! Still humane enough for ya?

The grenade goes of after it has penetrated the whale 60-70cm,and if hit in the chest as Norwegian whalers do,the whale will be killed instantly from the shock wave created by the impact and blast from the grenade.
So yes humane enough for me.

In 2008, 535 whales were taken by 27 vessels. Four whales (0.7 %) were reported lost after they were dead. No whales were reported to have escaped wounded. During the season one inspector from the Directorate of Fisheries were present at sea and on land. No violations of national regulations for hunting methods were reported.

andy_g · 02-03-2013 4:33pm

long range shooter wrote: »

The grenade goes of after it has penetrated the whale 60-70cm,and if hit in the chest as Norwegian whalers do,the whale will be killed instantly from the shock wave created by the impact and blast from the grenade.
So yes humane enough for me.

In 2008, 535 whales were taken by 27 vessels. Four whales (0.7 %) were reported lost after they were dead. No whales were reported to have escaped wounded. During the season one inspector from the Directorate of Fisheries were present at sea and on land. No violations of national regulations for hunting methods were reported.

Looking at the design of these harpoons they have a striker percussion cap thats set to detonate at 15 foot pounds thats only enough force to explode on impact with the water.

Also were these "observers" from Norway?

Seems were going off topic as the original topic is sea shepherd not the penthrite grenade.

long range shooter · 03-03-2013 9:44pm

andy_g wrote: »

Looking at the design of these harpoons they have a striker percussion cap thats set to detonate at 15 foot pounds thats only enough force to explode on impact with the water.

Also were these "observers" from Norway?

Seems were going off topic as the original topic is sea shepherd not the penthrite grenade.

Maybe you should consider joining them this year on their annual whale hunt,I am sure they would be delighted with your new scientific data.;)

Only minke whales (Balaenoptera acutorostrata) are hunted in Norway. The hunt is conducted from small (50 feet) or medium sized (60-120 feet) fishing boats specially rigged for whaling in the spring and summer season. The boats are equipped with 50 mm or 60 mm harpoon guns with corresponding harpoons and rifles with full metal jacket, round nosed bullets of calibres 9.3, .375 and .458 (minimum calibre 9.3 mm) as back- up weapon. The harpoon is carrying a penthrite grenade (Whale grenade-99) loaded with 30 g pressed penthrite as explosive. A charge of 52 g of gunpowder is used to launch the harpoon. The detonation is triggered at a depth of 65 cm inside the whale body by a twin hook connected to the firing pin with an elastic synthetic cord. The harpoon line, the fore-runner, is made of elastic materials like nylon or other synthetic materials and runs through a spring system to a winch to haul the whale in to the boat after it has been shot.
The whale is shot from the side whenever possible and the harpoon is usually aimed at the thorax region. A minke whale that is deadly hit will immediately stop swimming and roll onto its back or pull out some of the harpoon line before stopping. A whale that is still alive maintains normal position in the water and dives actively and resurfaces to blow. If the whale does not immediately turn over on its back it is hauled to the boat using the winch immediately after being shot and the gunner will be ready to fire the back-up rifle in the brain if necessary when it is alongside the boat. Many hunters fire a round as a matter of routine.
Research
From 1981 to 2004 three major research programmes to improve and assess the hunting and killing methods for minke whales were conducted in Norway. The goal of these programmes was to:

1) develop hunting methods and improved gear to improve the animal welfare associated with the hunting and killing of the whales, and also to improve the hunter’s safety; and
2) verify the results above by a very close monitoring of the hunt and sampling of time to
death (TTD) data, post-mortem examinations of the carcass and neuropathological
studies of brains from hunted (68) whales; and
3) develop and implement automated electronic monitoring technology for the
Norwegian minke whale hunt

The results of this research were new inventions of hunting gear, development and implementation of new weapon-technology, improved hunting techniques and routines, establishment of obligatory education and training of hunters and inspectors, plus an electronic monitoring system (Blue Box). In addition, the way the whales died was verified by the post-mortem examinations of the carcass and neuropathological studies of brains. Four types of whale grenades with the potent supersonic explosive penthrite were developed: two harpoon grenades used for minke whales, one for fin and sei whale hunt in Iceland, and one grenade for the traditional darting gun used by traditional subsistence hunters of bowhead whales in Alaska.

Data of results of different killing methods were collected for 5,552 minke whales from 1981 to 2002. The statistics show a considerable increase in instantaneous death rate (IDR). The time to death (TTD) was reduced accordingly and losses of wounded animals became less than one per thousand during 2000 to 2002
During 1997 to 1999 a new grenade (Whale grenade-99) with an improved and reversible safety and arming (SAM) was developed and tested. The penthrite charge was increased to 30 g of pressed penthrite and the weight was reduced 40 %, which considerably improved the balance of the gun and the harpoon ballistics.

The new grenade was introduced in the hunt on all vessels from the 2000 season on. Trained veterinarians and whale biologists collected TTD from all whales hunted during three seasons. The TTD was recorded as the moment at which cessation of flipper movement, relaxation of the mandible, or sinking without any active movement occurred, which may include periods when the animal may have been unconscious or already dead. The results for the 1,667 minke whales
caught in the three seasons (2000-2002) are shown in Fig. 2. The statistical analysis showed an IDR of about 80 % with no statistically significant difference between the three seasons. The results also showed that the whales died instantaneously or very quickly when the grenade hits and detonates centrally in the thorax or near the central nervous system. Detonation in the cranial part of the abdomen or in musculature dorsal to the thorax also resulted in instantaneous or very rapid death, but the effect of such hits was less reliable.

And since you already trying to get away from the discussion about sea Shepard and whaling,I think they are closely related though.

And the observers for the fisheries here in Ireland,are they Irish?

Why do you think Norway is allowed to do commercial whaling!
Because they have 25 years of reasearch to proof that whales can be killed humanely within 1 minutes(IWC),and that it's sustainable.
I don't think anyone can deny that,except for you maybe.:rolleyes:

andy_g · 06-03-2013 7:37pm

So how does that equate to a sea shepherd discussion? oh wait it doesnt plus a hollow point would be more human than a fmj round.

long range shooter · 06-03-2013 8:10pm

andy_g wrote: »

So how does that equate to a sea shepherd discussion? oh wait it doesnt plus a hollow point would be more human than a fmj round.

What is Sea Shepard protesting against?oh wait can it be Whaling??
And is a 50cal more human than a 5.56mm:rolleyes:

andy_g · 07-03-2013 12:36am

long range shooter wrote: »

What is Sea Shepard protesting against?oh wait can it be Whaling??
And is a 50cal more human than a 5.56mm:rolleyes:

actually no as 5.56 with hollow point would do more damage than a .50cal 50 doesnt break up on impact and thus is more a hard target round. while anything up to 7.92 is better for soft targets.

long range shooter · 07-03-2013 12:59am

andy_g wrote: »

actually no as 5.56 with hollow point would do more damage than a .50cal 50 doesnt break up on impact and thus is more a hard target round. while anything up to 7.92 is better for soft targets.

As in all other warfare or hunting,it's all about shot placement.
some have survived both with 50 cal or 5.56 in the leg,but in the chest or head,50 cal wins all the way.
and with body armour,it will stop. 5.56mm,but not a 50 cal.
And with this ammo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raufoss_Mk_211

You are not even safe behind walls;)

But I think this thread is going a bit outside Sea Shepard and Whaling at the moment.
I am sure they would love this one over in the shooting thread;)or the military thread.

andy_g · 07-03-2013 5:45pm

The round you linked to is obsolete since 99. even so the penetrating power of a .50 fmj the animal wouldnt even notice it as its a supersonic round not subsonic which breaks up on impact giving a human kill.

So why exactly is it that "research" ends up in the fish market? Or is it research of who eats whale meat?

long range shooter · 07-03-2013 5:54pm

andy_g wrote: »

The round you linked to is obsolete since 99. even so the penetrating power of a .50 fmj the animal wouldnt even notice it as its a supersonic round not subsonic which breaks up on impact giving a human kill.

So why exactly is it that "research" ends up in the fish market? Or is it research of who eats whale meat?

That round is used in Afghanistan today by US and allies.Do you know what a subsonic round is??

When they slaughter other animals for research,do they throw away the remains,or do they use it i wonder?
And its probably a research of who eats it or not too,but with all the lies and bad propaganda that has been in media the last 30 years i am not surprised.
Have you ever tried it,i had some last week.i still have 5 kg in the freezer if you would like to try some;)

Sea Shepherd

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