Sea Shepherd

Tabnabs

I'm going to throw this subject out for discussion. We've all seen the Whale Wars TV series, now environmental issues aside, is what they are doing lawful and in the best observance of good seamanship?

As professional seafarers, do you think their actions are entirely justifiable and would you agree with this group or any other environmental group staging similar action against your ship or fishing boat?

cyrusdvirus

Tabnabs wrote: »

I'm going to throw this subject out for discussion. We've all seen the Whale Wars TV series, now environmental issues aside, is what they are doing lawful and in the best observance of good seamanship?

As professional seafarers, do you think their actions are entirely justifiable and would you agree with this group or any other environmental group staging similar action against your ship or fishing boat?

< Now hear this, Now hear this.... All hands, prepare to repel boarders>

CJhaughey

If they disabled a ship and the crew of the disabled vessel died because of weather etc , the Sea Shepherds would find themselves facing serious charges I would think.
Towing a rope as a prop fouler is just plain murderous in any Ocean let alone the Southern Ocean where Ice is present.
I would question the seamanship in a number of situations, taking a non-iceclass vessel into Ice.
Then sending crew down into the compartment to report on possible damage!
The list goes on, and its only a matter of time before they lose someone on their own crew or kill a crewman on the whaling vessels.

LiamoSail

I disagree with them on a number of levels. While I have no opinion on Whale fishing, I view what they are doing as akin to people coming to Ireland to sabotage pig farmers, because they disagree with it

From a more serious point of view, they're absolutely reckless at sea. They show no regard for the col regs, for safety of the crews of other vessels, or for the safety of rescue personnel who will invariably have to attend an incident caused by them at some point in the future

While I have no opinion or knowledge of the rights or wrongs of whale fishing (I don't really care if truth be told), the crew's on those whale fishing ships are unlikely to be the one's making hansom profits from the whole operation. In fact, I would wager that the crews onboard are living in poor conditions, and doing a dangerous job, made even more hazardous by these hippies, for little money

As an aside, I used to glance at this site from time to time, but seeing this forum finally encouraged me to join. Delighted to see it and look forward to moaning about life at sea with the rest of ye

Outkast_IRE

I agree with the overall message that all forms of whaling should be banned . But in terms of what they are doing to promote and achieve that message i find it totally wrong and will result in a casualty sooner rather than later.

Cardinal Richelieu

Tabnabs wrote: »

I'm going to throw this subject out for discussion. We've all seen the Whale Wars TV series, now environmental issues aside, is what they are doing lawful and in the best observance of good seamanship?

As professional seafarers, do you think their actions are entirely justifiable and would you agree with this group or any other environmental group staging similar action against your ship or fishing boat?

Have we? What channel was it on?

Outkast_IRE

Cardinal Richelieu wrote: »

Have we? What channel was it on?

discovery i believe , youtube is bound to have clips

roundymac

Channel 520 on sky.

ex_infantry man

they have a cause!! but what there doin is down right dangerous for both side's. as was said the prop fouler is a dangerous device in icy waters, then ya have the sea shephards on the other end of it risking there own lives trying to get aboard a whaling ship to do damage, the risk to them is that they could get water cannoned and end up in sub zero water's or if a whaler shoots a harpoon across there bow or something silly like that

andy_g

Ok first of all looking at this from a volunteer for Sea Shepherd Consevation Society point of view.

Have you seen the whalers side of their violence shown towards SSCS crews? apart from the watered down version that discovery/animal channel show.

Also the crew members from the whaling fleet make one hell of alot of money from whaling.

Remember the tsunami/nuclear plants diaster from last year? The money that was meant to go to the people of Japan did not infact go to help theJapanese people get back on their feet. Infact it went back into the pockets of the Japanese fishing industry to subsadise the 2011/2012 whaling season in a whale sanctuary in the Ross Sea/Southern Ocean.

Here is a question for you since Ireland is a signatory on the moretoreum of 86 to try and stop commercial whaling how would you like for Norway to send one of their whaling vessals into irish waters and commece illegal whaling?

Japan continues to commercially whale under the term/"Clause" of "research" where has this "research" ever been published? oh wait it never was.

If you want to get the Japanese Fisheries stand point on this you may look up icrwhale.org

Apart from our whaling campaighn what else do you know of sea shepherd?

Also look at The Faroe island campaighn as the Faroe Islands also effects our migration routes for dolphin and whales here in Ireland.
So next year you might want to go see the dalkey/killiney dolphins and they may never be there why you ask? ask The Danish Government as they are the same Gorvnement for the Faroe Islands.

Cookie_Monster

andy_g wrote: »

Remember the tsunami/nuclear plants diaster from last year? The money that was meant to go to the people of Japan did not infact go to help theJapanese people get back on their feet. Infact it went back into the pockets of the Japanese fishing industry to subsadise the 2011/2012 whaling season in a whale sanctuary in the Ross Sea/Southern Ocean.

that's a pretty wild accusation right there, anything to back it up?

andy_g

Link as requested http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/story/2011-12-08/japan-whaling-tsunami/51744710/1

although usa today have the kill quota a little wrong.

LiamoSail

andy_g wrote: »

Ok first of all looking at this from a volunteer for Sea Shepherd Consevation Society point of view.

Have you seen the whalers side of their violence shown towards SSCS crews? apart from the watered down version that discovery/animal channel show.

Also the crew members from the whaling fleet make one hell of alot of money from whaling.

Remember the tsunami/nuclear plants diaster from last year? The money that was meant to go to the people of Japan did not infact go to help theJapanese people get back on their feet. Infact it went back into the pockets of the Japanese fishing industry to subsadise the 2011/2012 whaling season in a whale sanctuary in the Ross Sea/Southern Ocean.

Here is a question for you since Ireland is a signatory on the moretoreum of 86 to try and stop commercial whaling how would you like for Norway to send one of their whaling vessals into irish waters and commece illegal whaling?

Japan continues to commercially whale under the term/"Clause" of "research" where has this "research" ever been published? oh wait it never was.

If you want to get the Japanese Fisheries stand point on this you may look up icrwhale.org

Apart from our whaling campaighn what else do you know of sea shepherd?

Also look at The Faroe island campaighn as the Faroe Islands also effects our migration routes for dolphin and whales here in Ireland.
So next year you might want to go see the dalkey/killiney dolphins and they may never be there why you ask? ask The Danish Government as they are the same Gorvnement for the Faroe Islands.

Without wanting to sound ignorant, I really don't care about the rights or wrongs of whaling, or dolphin's in Dublin Bay etc. My point is purely from a safety at sea perspective

If the Japanese are taking the piss then that's an issue for Governments etc to address. Sea Sheppard seem to think they have a mandate to police this sort of thing, but they don't. By all means protest or lobby the Japanese Government or whatever, with that I have no issue but they seem to have adopted a vigilante approach. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter and all that

Their actions put others in danger, be they crews of the whaling vessels, rescue personnel, or other vessels. They don't give two ****s about anyone else because they've decided that their cause, a few whales, is more important then the safety of others, so from my own perspective, the sooner they make an example of this crowd, the better

andy_g

But thats the irish mentality in fairness. "Ah sure if it's not effecting me its not happening"

SSCS are the only Conservation Group not protest group that are actively enforcing The United Nations World Charter for Nature Section 21.

Also rules set out by the IWc (International Whaling commision) and the CITES treaty. The last one enforced would be The United Nations Convention on the law of the see otherwise known as (UNCLOS)

Also in 2008 there was the court ruling in Austraila preventing Japanese ships to whaling in the Ross Sea however Japan refuses to abide by the ruling.

If you look at it this way Austraila and New Zealand allow Sea Shepherd ships to refuel in their ports if they though we werent conducting our conservation practices safely on the high sea's we would be refused access to the ports Japanese whaling vessals are prohibited from enter Austraila/New Zealand Terratorial Water/EEZ

LiamoSail

andy_g wrote: »

But thats the irish mentality in fairness. "Ah sure if it's not effecting me its not happening"

SSCS are the only Conservation Group not protest group that are actively enforcing The United Nations World Charter for Nature Section 21.

Also rules set out by the IWc (International Whaling commision) and the CITES treaty. The last one enforced would be The United Nations Convention on the law of the see otherwise known as (UNCLOS)

Also in 2008 there was the court ruling in Austraila preventing Japanese ships to whaling in the Ross Sea however Japan refuses to abide by the ruling.

If you look at it this way Austraila and New Zealand allow Sea Shepherd ships to refuel in their ports if they though we werent conducting our conservation practices safely on the high sea's we would be refused access to the ports Japanese whaling vessals are prohibited from enter Austraila/New Zealand Terratorial Water/EEZ

I never denied it was happening, I just stated that I don't particularly care that its happening.

Sea Sheppard may believe that their cause is worth the risk that their actions pose to others, as a seafarer, I don't

The observance of good seamanship is paramount to the safety of life at sea, but clearly this means nothing to Sea Sheppard. Personally I'd be happier to see every whale in the world killed, then every whale saved and a single person lose their life as a result of the actions of Sea Sheppard. I'm not advocating the killing of whales, but these people are no better then the untrained crews in unseaworthy ships going to sea in my opinion, because both contribute to making life at sea more dangerous

While Sea Sheppard are off trying to save the whales, the rest of go to sea to make a living, and crowds like Sea Sheppard contribute to make that living more dangerous

andy_g

I can see why you may not agree with our practices thats fine but then how do you know the qaulifications of our crews? very small amounts of our crew have no training any campaighn i have served on there has been two members non trained in what they do.

You have to look at it this way in regards to whales its a fine balance for the eco system remove whales which are a Alpha predator in the sea and the eco system fails.

Just like shark and shark fining it takes 7years for a shark to reproduce.

Tabnabs

andy_g wrote: »

I can see why you may not agree with our practices thats fine but then how do you know the qaulifications of our crews? very small amounts of our crew have no training any campaighn i have served on there has been two members non trained in what they do.

In fairness, the lack of training by crew and the absolutely woeful practices by the "officers" is clearly evident in any and all episodes on tv. You see them doing the most stupid and unsafe things and the "officers" show an unbelievable level of leadership. It beggars belief that these guys have any formal training or qualifications at all. Even if they did, their certification would not be renewed with the blatant poor seamanship and the convictions...

cyrusdvirus

i remember reading somewhere that scientists are close to identifying the particular whale song that screams 'Help, I'm being mugged'.

Once they have this identified all the conservationists need to do is sail 1/2 a mile ahead of the whalers broadcasting that into the sea.

Jobs done, and no need for fouling propellers or anything like that

LiamoSail

andy_g wrote: »

I can see why you may not agree with our practices thats fine but then how do you know the qaulifications of our crews? very small amounts of our crew have no training any campaighn i have served on there has been two members non trained in what they do.

You have to look at it this way in regards to whales its a fine balance for the eco system remove whales which are a Alpha predator in the sea and the eco system fails.

Just like shark and shark fining it takes 7years for a shark to reproduce.

As Tabnabs mentioned, its akin to watching a 7 yr old drive a car. I don't know for a fact that the 7 yr old doesn't have a licence, but I'd guess not

My point about untrained crews related more to other merchant vessels running around the place which blatantly employ untrained crews. I was saying that these ships are a hazard through their lack of knowledge, while Sea Sheppard similarly, even if they are properly trained and certified (which I'm quiet sceptical about) are a hazard because of their intentions, and lack of regard for good seamanship

Just to clarify here, I'm not demeaning your campaign. I'm criticising your methods and willingness to endanger the safety of others for your cause

Ronnie Beck

LiamoSail wrote: »

Without wanting to sound ignorant, I really don't care about the rights or wrongs of whaling, or dolphin's in Dublin Bay etc. My point is purely from a safety at sea perspective

If the Japanese are taking the piss then that's an issue for Governments etc to address.

Commercial whaling in the southern ocean is illegal. It is a whale sanctuary and has been for nearly twenty years signed in by 23 countries (it has been addressed). The Japanese government ignore this and claim it is an illegal sanctuary. They fish these whales under the guise of conducting scientific research which is legal. In the twenty years they haven't contributed any research into the conservation of southern ocean whale populations despite having a self-set quota for 1000 mink whales each season. The Japanese government have also issued permits for endangered whales such as fin and humpback whales and are seriously undermining the integrity of the sanctuary. In my opinion these waters should be policed by gunships and not by hippies with prop fouling ropes.

Mickey Dazzler

From watching the few episodes of the TV show it is a worry to see the total recklessness and complete disregard for good seamanship that these guys have. Some body is going to get hurt because of these guys.

Cookie_Monster

Ronnie Beck wrote: »

In my opinion these waters should be policed by gunships and not by hippies with prop fouling ropes.

this, get those hippies outa there and have each country that signed the treaty provide at least one armed naval vessel to police those waters.

johngalway

I have no time for those irresponsible, dangerous twats in the thread title.

andy_g

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

this, get those hippies outa there and have each country that signed the treaty provide at least one armed naval vessel to police those waters.

That would be intresting to see the Irish Naval Service trying to provide and armed vessel considering we have about 8 i think and none have an ice class hull

On the bright side of happy thursday http://www.smh.com.au/environment/whale-watch/nisshin-impossible-japanese-whalers-quit-20120308-1un8f.html

We must be doing something right, and hopefully i'll be down there next year again as i couldnt this year.

Tabnabs

Good news all round, no noobs will drown or sink, the Japanese lads get to go home early and hopefully fewer whales hunted.

Interesting to see Greenpeace have a different reason for these shorter whaling seasons (http://en.mercopress.com/2011/02/16/japan-cuts-short-whaling-season-greenpeace-says-whale-meat-market-overstocked)

Ronnie Beck

Younger japanese people are less fond of the traditional seafood diet and starting to prefer american food such as burgers and pizza. Great news for whales.

LiamoSail

andy_g wrote: »

That would be intresting to see the Irish Naval Service trying to provide and armed vessel considering we have about 8 i think and none have an ice class hull

They'd still be a hell of a lot safer then Sea Sheppard

andy_g

yeah they probley would or they might sink due to the vessels not being ice class huls either

LiamoSail

andy_g wrote: »

yeah they probley would or they might sink due to the vessels not being ice class huls either

Realistically, the INS aren't going to go down there so this argument is a bit pointless. The point made by a previous poster was that the job of fisheries protection in that area should be done by various countries Navy's. As you well know, the INS do not have the resources to fulfil such a role

My retort to your initial assertion was merely in response to the claim that Sea Sheppard, an organisation with as much seamanship ability as a banana, are some how better qualified then trained, professional crews who understand the inherent hazard's such a role would pose to both themselves, and to other's

You still haven't countered the point that was made, but then again if various Navies were to fulfil the role you'd probably have to find another cause and that's unlikely to be as much craic as chasing ships around

skipz

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hT_PB4VTJcnschQhgThu0kKgCl9A?docId=CNG.f0067d6b6c5fc41cfa26baa08eca6055.591

savagecabbages

andy_g wrote: »

Have you seen the whalers side of their violence shown towards SSCS crews? apart from the watered down version that discovery/animal channel show.

I've seen the fictional storyline on one episode where the whalers supposedly open fire on the Sea Shepherds and the captain was supposedly shot in the chest, only saved by his bullet proof vest. They even produced a bullet to prove it:rolleyes:

Attempted murder is a serious crime, you'd think the Sea Shepherds would have followed it up had it actually happened...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7Sz8uH0k-Q

Mickey Dazzler

The biggest mistake those Sea Shepard guys made was inviting on camera crews to document their plight. Exposed themselves for complete fools.

long range shooter

Mickey Dazzler wrote: »

The biggest mistake those Sea Shepard guys made was inviting on camera crews to document their plight. Exposed themselves for complete fools.

that is very true.They are a disgrace to anyone working at sea.
I still cant believe how captain Watson managed to get his master license?

Tabnabs

long range shooter wrote: »

that is very true.They are a disgrace to anyone working at sea.
I still cant believe how captain Watson managed to get his master license?

What makes you think he did? Dig around and you'll find out how they exploit the loopholes.

long range shooter

Tabnabs wrote: »

long range shooter wrote: »

that is very true.They are a disgrace to anyone working at sea.
I still cant believe how captain Watson managed to get his master license?

What makes you think he did? Dig around and you'll find out how they exploit the loopholes.

Yes nothing really surprise me there.Amazing what you can buy on the black market.

Mickey Dazzler

Tabnabs wrote: »

What makes you think he did? Dig around and you'll find out how they exploit the loopholes.

Did he get his ticket out of a cornflakes box?

Tabnabs

He has no ticket, captain is a self proclaimed title.

Several years after ramming the Sierra, Watson gave himself the title of captain, though he does not have a captain’s license. “He loves to dress up in uniform, as ‘Captain Paul Watson,’ and suddenly there’s enough gold braid on his shoulders to skipper the Queen Mary,” David Sellers, an old friend and former Sea Shepherd crew member, told me. In the eighties, Sellers and Watson fought so bitterly over the seaworthiness of Watson’s ship that they did not speak for fifteen years. (Sellers, a licensed captain, had insisted that it was not safe for ocean travel.) Many of Watson’s colleagues from the seventies and eighties no longer work with him; they have grown tired either of the campaigns or of Watson’s style of leadership—“anarchy run by God,” a longtime volunteer called it. “He doesn’t like people who disagree with him.”

Read more http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/11/05/071105fa_fact_khatchadourian#ixzz1pHPnaeCW

long range shooter

Tabnabs wrote: »

He has no ticket, captain is a self proclaimed title.

Several years after ramming the Sierra, Watson gave himself the title of captain, though he does not have a captain’s license. “He loves to dress up in uniform, as ‘Captain Paul Watson,’ and suddenly there’s enough gold braid on his shoulders to skipper the Queen Mary,” David Sellers, an old friend and former Sea Shepherd crew member, told me. In the eighties, Sellers and Watson fought so bitterly over the seaworthiness of Watson’s ship that they did not speak for fifteen years. (Sellers, a licensed captain, had insisted that it was not safe for ocean travel.) Many of Watson’s colleagues from the seventies and eighties no longer work with him; they have grown tired either of the campaigns or of Watson’s style of leadership—“anarchy run by God,” a longtime volunteer called it. “He doesn’t like people who disagree with him.”

Read more http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/11/05/071105fa_fact_khatchadourian#ixzz1pHPnaeCW

King Neptune would probably suit him better as title then captain Watson.

Cookie_Monster

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=78706366#post78706366

Captain Mr Watson arrested in Germany and held for extradition to Costa Rica

long range shooter

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=78706366#post78706366

Captain Mr Watson arrested in Germany and held for extradition to Costa Rica

Good i hope they put him away for a loooong time:D:D;)
And who is the pirat now lol.

http://youtu.be/94W4trkb1Pw

somefeen

I'm all for marine conservation and protecting marine species, but speaking as a scientist I can't stand those pricks in greenpeace.
Sensationalist ****e half the time, wreckless lies the rest.

long range shooter

savagecabbages wrote: »

I've seen the fictional storyline on one episode where the whalers supposedly open fire on the Sea Shepherds and the captain was supposedly shot in the chest, only saved by his bullet proof vest. They even produced a bullet to prove it:rolleyes:

Attempted murder is a serious crime, you'd think the Sea Shepherds would have followed it up had it actually happened...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7Sz8uH0k-Q

The hole man is a fake:mad:

long range shooter

A pressconference was held in Frankfurt over"Captain" Paul Watson arrest .

http://youtu.be/hmv4q7aqsB4

ektec

I stand by Sea Shepard all the way.. I believe that canning whale meet and not conducting scientific research is crule.. Yes ok, they might be doing some research but mainly I "think" just to make some money.. Do they have to kill whales just to do research? Do they have to have a quota of 900 whales? Why?

I think its just crule killing so many whales in the southern ocean..

I was watching Whale Wars on friday there, and the whaling fleet stopped whaling and went back to port? I hope this will be an end to whaling!

I do not believe Captain Paul Watson faked when he got shot...

ektec

Mickey Dazzler wrote: »

From watching the few episodes of the TV show it is a worry to see the total recklessness and complete disregard for good seamanship that these guys have. Some body is going to get hurt because of these guys.

I dont believe this is true, my opinion is they DONT disregard for good seamanship, that is FALSE. I think the sea shepard will put their lives on the line just to stop killing such powerful creatures...

Mickey Dazzler

ektec wrote: »

will put their lives on the line

You just made my point. That is about a reckless as you can get.

ektec

Mickey Dazzler wrote: »

You just made my point. That is about a reckless as you can get.

Its not reckless mickey. Ok, the japanese whaling fleet are killing 900 whales for scientific research. Sea Shepard claims they are canning the meet to send to the markets. Whales are cool, people love them. people would not put their life on the line for whales. Sea Shepard would but their life on the line as humpbacks and other whales are near extinction. Now, if you have the whaling fleet "just" killing so many whales day by day, I can see why Sea Shepard are furious nearing extinction. They want to stop them killing. The japanese just see's whales as whales but the Sea Shepard see them as something else, which is acceptable. Its not reckless putting your life on the line for something you want to stop and love.

Tabnabs

ektec wrote: »

I dont believe this is true, my opinion is they DONT disregard for good seamanship, that is FALSE. I think the sea shepard will put their lives on the line just to stop killing such powerful creatures...

Perhaps you'd like to share your background and let us know your understanding of good seamanship?

Here's one example I saw recently, 150n self inflating lifejackets being used in the ribs over very many layers of clothing. Suicide if you enter the water and highly stupid and irresponsible. :rolleyes:

Not only are they putting others lives at risk, the management of the ship is showing a blatent disregard for their own "crew".

ektec

good seamanship as in not entering the ice field with a boat that does not have ice protection in the hull...

wearing lifejackets over clothing? I think their clothing is to protect them from the cold waters.. its not like they are wearing a hoodie..

How is the mangement of the ship not thinking of their own crew? I need an example... Every person on board all 3 vessels would do anything just to stop the japanese.. paul stated in one programme safety for their crew is number one and whales is number two, but close behind.. Everyone on board would do anything to stop them, but would do somethings that are "risky"

long range shooter

ektec wrote: »

good seamanship as in not entering the ice field with a boat that does not have ice protection in the hull...

wearing lifejackets over clothing? I think their clothing is to protect them from the cold waters.. its not like they are wearing a hoodie..

How is the mangement of the ship not thinking of their own crew? I need an example... Every person on board all 3 vessels would do anything just to stop the japanese.. paul stated in one programme safety for their crew is number one and whales is number two, but close behind.. Everyone on board would do anything to stop them, but would do somethings that are "risky"

Safety in icy waters is using a survivalsuit,not wearing lifejackets on top of layers of clothing you will go straight to the bottom when these clothes get wet,or you will die from hypothermia.

tedshredsonfire

ektec I am a supporter of sea shepard but think waht paul does sometimes is daft. the crew are very haphazard as they are only there for a short time. I know they undergo some training but its naff all afaik. Bottom line is they protect whales and have saved countless numbers of them so they have my support. Some things they do hurt their campaign imho. Boarding a ship and then claiming you have been kidnapped being one of them. I am no martime expert but spend a lot of my time in and under the water but pretty much all coastal work so no experience of Blue water stuff but they are haphazard even launching the ribs seems to be an ordeal. Really hope some billionaire sets up a trainng centre for them or pays fore some of the volunteers to go and do a maritime college course. Like I stated above they have my support despite all this. Its their passion and enthusiasm that wins through in the end anyway.