Sea Shepherd

CJhaughey

Discodog wrote: »

At the end of the day, regardless of what the Japanese think or American judges, millions of ordinary people oppose whaling. If, for example, crew members were imprisoned or even killed there are plenty who would take their place. If a Sea Shepherd vessel is lost then a new one will quickly replace it.

I'd say you'd be wrong. The resulting lawsuits from relatives would keep SS busy if not break them.
At the end of the day the Japanese are not breaking any laws.
They are operating under IWC rules, the IWC is the international whaling commission, not the international anti-whaling commission.
The continued flouting of Colregs by SS will eventually come home to roost.
The Somalian pirates started out the same way and look what happened to them...

Freedive Ireland

LRS kinda hard to start using acoustics when other greenies would say that sonic equipment is possibly disorientating whales and their navigation and leading to beaching etc. Otherwise its a good idea. Cant say any of the ships that Watson has captained have been all that luxiourus that I could see so don't see where the money issue is. By the way I am a fan of SS not P. Watson.
As for the US well they fck right off with themselves. Who asked them to start intervening in international affairs? Not like them at all. One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. The Japanese are violating International law by hunting in an agreed conservation zone but no one seems to be trying to arrest them as its for research.

Boombastic

CJhaughey wrote: »

...............
At the end of the day the Japanese are not breaking any laws.
.................................

they are they admit they are taking it for food as discodog quoted a Japanese minister as saying

According to a Japanese minister: "Japan is an island nation surrounded by the sea, so taking some good protein from the ocean is very important. For food security I think it's very important," he told AFP

Freedive Ireland

CJ come on are they really there for research? If thats the case SS are just there sight seeing and happen to get in the way. japan has bought support in the IWC by buying out small countires who then vote with them to allow the "research" clause.

Freedive Ireland

This form the front page of the IWC website.
"In 1986 the Commission introduced zero catch limits for commercial whaling. This provision is still in place today, although the Commission continues to set catch limits for aboriginal subsistence whaling"

"SANCTUARIES

Two Sanctuaries are currently designated by the International Whaling Commission, both of which prohibit commercial whaling. The first of these, the Indian Ocean Sanctuary, was established in 1979 and covers the whole of the Indian Ocean south to 55°S.

The second was adopted in 1994 and covers the waters of the Southern Ocean around Antarctica. The boundaries of both of the Sanctuaries can be seen on this map and their precise co-ordinates are recorded in the Schedule at paragraphs 7.(a) and 7.(b)

An additional proposal for a Sanctuary in the South Atlantic Ocean has been repeatedly submitted to the Commission in recent years. To date it has failed to achieve the three-quarters majority of votes needed to amend the Schedule and thus become designated by the IWC."

Freedive Ireland

So heres the moneyshot question to all the pro whaling supporters.
Why are the Japanese hunting in a sanctuary and if they have a "tradition" of it in home waters why do they not just hunt there then? No way SS would be allowed to hassle them in their own waters.

Case closed?

CJhaughey

Freedive Ireland wrote: »

So heres the moneyshot question to all the pro whaling supporters.
Why are the Japanese hunting in a sanctuary and if they have a "tradition" of it in home waters why do they not just hunt there then? No way SS would be allowed to hassle them in their own waters.

Case closed?

The Japanese are conducting research in the Southern ocean ,and use the whales killed for food as well.
Its the same argument as discarding fish that have been caught by a fishing vessel and are not allowed to be landed.
They are not commercially hunting whales that is the difference.
If the whales were killed and then just dumped overboard after the relevant scientific tests were done would that be better? I don't think so.

Boombastic

CJhaughey wrote: »

The Japanese are conducting research in the Southern ocean ,and use the whales killed for food as well.
Its the same argument as discarding fish that have been caught by a fishing vessel and are not allowed to be landed.
They are not commercially hunting whales that is the difference.
If the whales were killed and then just dumped overboard after the relevant scientific tests were done would that be better? I don't think so.

What relevant scientific tests are they carrying out that couldn't be done by non-evasive methods?

tricky D

Freedive Ireland wrote: »

So heres the moneyshot question to all the pro whaling supporters.

Hold on a sec now. There's been just about close to zero pro-whaling sentiment expressed in this thread from my scan. There only one single vaguely pro-whaling phrase that I can find in this thread which hardly supports your contention. If anything almost all opinion has has been neutral, factual or anti-whaling by a massive majority. What there has been from mariners in this thread is the total rejection of the reckless and illegal action of the SS cohorts. Good seamanship is their main concern which is no surprise in the Maritime forum. If anything I'd speculate that most are really anti-whaling.

Actually, if anything, their actions are undermining the responsible campaigning carried out by the likes of Greenpeace, Save the Whales et al, who, last time I checked, generally take the policy of observe and report and leave the enforcement of laws up to those whose task that legally is. SS take the law into their own hands and cross into illegality time and again. These actions actually are, if anything, damaging other more realistic, responsible and safe efforts to promote whale conservation.

Freedive Ireland

CJ thats not answering the questions, hand on heart are they there for research? Or is that an excuse to hunt whales in a sanctuary?
Tricky ok I will bow to that most people are voicing concerns over seamanship and in many cases rightly so. Greenpeace can report all they want but the authorities ( who are the authorities in this case?) are not doing anything about it. SS see the japanese breaking a conservation law and so try to stop it as no one else is doing so.

long range shooter

Boombastic wrote: »

What relevant scientific tests are they carrying out that couldn't be done by non-evasive methods?

Japan's research program in the Antarctic, which began with feasibility studies in 1987/88 and 1988/89 in response to claims of uncertainty of scientific information, has 4 objectives:
Estimation of biological parameters to improve the stock management of the Southern Hemisphere minke whale,
Examination of the role of whales in the Antarctic marine ecosystem,
Examination of the effect of environmental changes on cetaceans and,
Examination of the stock structure of the Southern Hemisphere minke whales to improve stock management.
The research program involves both a sighting survey whose primary purpose is the estimation of trends in abundance, and a sampling component.
Japan has conducted a whale research program in the western North Pacific from 1994 to1999 under Special Permit as provided for under Article VIII of the International Convention for the Regulation of Whaling (ICRW). This program had two main objectives: the study of population structure of minke whales and the study of feeding ecology of minke whales in the western North Pacific. The program was reviewed by the IWC's Scientific Committee each year and at a review meeting held in February 2000.
Since some scientific issues remain outstanding following the 1994 — 1999 program, a second phase of the research began in July of this year. The priority for this phase of the research is feeding ecology involving studies on prey consumption by cetaceans, prey preferences of cetaceans and ecosystem modeling. Minke, Bryde's and sperm whales are included as part of this research. Other research objectives include the study of stock structure of minke, Bryde's and sperm whales as well as the study of environmental effects such as chemical pollution on cetaceans and the marine ecosystem.
More than 100 data items and samples are taken from each whale including ear plugs for age determination studies, reproductive organs for examination of maturation, reproductive cycles and reproductive rates, stomachs for analysis of food consumption and blubber thickness as a measure of condition.

long range shooter

Freedive Ireland wrote: »

So heres the moneyshot question to all the pro whaling supporters.
Why are the Japanese hunting in a sanctuary and if they have a "tradition" of it in home waters why do they not just hunt there then? No way SS would be allowed to hassle them in their own waters.

Case closed?

The UN Conference on Environment and Development (UNCED) held in Rio de Janeiro, reaffirmed the provisions of the Convention on the Law of the Sea, an agreement that permits whaling on the high seas, and explicitly rejected the efforts of anti-whaling nations to exclude whales from the list of resources open to sustainable use and development. Further, at both the 1997 and 2000 Conferences of the Parties to the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species, more than half the countries present supported the controlled use of minke whales. Many fishing nations including Norway, China, Korea, Russia and Iceland, as well as many developing countries support the sustainable use of all marine resources (including whales) and research programs that provide for science based resource management decisions.

long range shooter

Freedive Ireland wrote: »

As for the US well they fck right off with themselves. Who asked them to start intervening in international affairs? Not like them at all.

It is important to understand that the treaty that established the International Whaling Commission (IWC) is a treaty designed specifically for the conservation of whales in order to make possible the orderly development of the whaling industry. It is not a treaty for the total protection of whales. It is a treaty whose purpose is to ensure the sustainable use of whale resources. Under Article VIII of this treaty, members of the IWC can issue permits for the taking of whales for research purposes. Japan's research program is therefore perfectly legal. Such special permits have been used in the past by a number of countries including the United States, Australia and New Zealand. The suggestion that the United States impose sanctions on Japan for its take of 10 sperm whales from a population of over 2 million at the same time that it supports the take of more than 60 bowhead whales in Alaska from a truly endangered (IUCN red list) and drastically depleted population of 7,000 is absurd. Most American's may not know it, but it is a fact that their Government supports the harvest of approximately the same amount of whale meat each year by Americans as the by-product resulting from Japan's whale research programs.

long range shooter

Freedive Ireland wrote: »

This form the front page of the IWC website.
"In 1986 the Commission introduced zero catch limits for commercial whaling. This provision is still in place today, although the Commission continues to set catch limits for aboriginal subsistence whaling"

"SANCTUARIES

Two Sanctuaries are currently designated by the International Whaling Commission, both of which prohibit commercial whaling. The first of these, the Indian Ocean Sanctuary, was established in 1979 and covers the whole of the Indian Ocean south to 55°S.

The second was adopted in 1994 and covers the waters of the Southern Ocean around Antarctica. The boundaries of both of the Sanctuaries can be seen on this map and their precise co-ordinates are recorded in the Schedule at paragraphs 7.(a) and 7.(b)

An additional proposal for a Sanctuary in the South Atlantic Ocean has been repeatedly submitted to the Commission in recent years. To date it has failed to achieve the three-quarters majority of votes needed to amend the Schedule and thus become designated by the IWC."

Article VIII of the ICRW begins with the words "Notwithstanding anything contained in this Convention…" Further, both the moratorium and the Antarctic Sanctuary apply only to commercial whaling. Contrary to claims by Greenpeace, Japan's whale research programs are not a violation of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS). Nothing in the UNCLOS diminishes or restricts in any way, rights provided by the ICRW.

Freedive Ireland

So from what I am reading there its just all politics. Create a sanctuary but its not really going to be a sanctuary if you follow this clause of research. Kind of we are going to cut your wages but its not really a cut its just an adjustment.

So after the ICRW the IWC was set up, this again on the first bit of text on their front page copied and pasted states

"The International Whaling Commission is the global intergovernmental body charged with the conservation of whales and the management of whaling."
"In 1986 the Commission introduced zero catch limits for commercial whaling. This provision is still in place today, although the Commission continues to set catch limits for aboriginal subsistence whaling."

So for the last 27 or so years they have advocated a no take situation but you seem to imply their main goal is the management of whaling?

Freedive Ireland

By the way for anyone involved in this discussion, kudos for at least having a point of view and airing it. If anyone is going to the dive show at the weekend in Athlone I will be there and will happily buy you a pint by way of putting up with my rantings. Its a good discussion.

long range shooter

Freedive Ireland wrote: »

So from what I am reading there its just all politics. Create a sanctuary but its not really going to be a sanctuary if you follow this clause of research. Kind of we are going to cut your wages but its not really a cut its just an adjustment.

So after the ICRW the IWC was set up, this again on the first bit of text on their front page copied and pasted states

"The International Whaling Commission is the global intergovernmental body charged with the conservation of whales and the management of whaling."
"In 1986 the Commission introduced zero catch limits for commercial whaling. This provision is still in place today, although the Commission continues to set catch limits for aboriginal subsistence whaling."

So for the last 27 or so years they have advocated a no take situation but you seem to imply their main goal is the management of whaling?

Correct,and that's why the research the Japanese are doing is perfectly legal.
And that's why I wonder why the sea Shepard is doing there??
But then again I guess they have to make a living too:rolleyes:

But like Paul Watson once said
"Nazi propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels once remarked that if a lie is told often enough people will begin to see the lie as truth."

long range shooter

Freedive Ireland wrote: »

By the way for anyone involved in this discussion, kudos for at least having a point of view and airing it. If anyone is going to the dive show at the weekend in Athlone I will be there and will happily buy you a pint by way of putting up with my rantings. Its a good discussion.

I'd love that freedive,but unfortunately going to a wedding in the weekend,but thanks for asking

Cookie_Monster

long range shooter wrote: »

has 4 objectives:
Estimation of biological parameters to improve the stock management of the Southern Hemisphere minke whale,
Examination of the role of whales in the Antarctic marine ecosystem,
Examination of the effect of environmental changes on cetaceans and,
Examination of the stock structure of the Southern Hemisphere minke whales to improve stock management.

the first and last of those are bollox, whales don't need stock management by people end of story.

long range shooter

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

the first and last of those are bollox, whales don't need stock management by people end of story.

No,your right,prevention and control of animal diseases is not needed anywhere.
And the same goes with pollution ,no need to see how that effects life in the oceans.:rolleyes:

CJhaughey

Freedive Ireland wrote: »

So from what I am reading there its just all politics. Create a sanctuary but its not really going to be a sanctuary if you follow this clause of research. Kind of we are going to cut your wages but its not really a cut its just an adjustment.

So after the ICRW the IWC was set up, this again on the first bit of text on their front page copied and pasted states

"The International Whaling Commission is the global intergovernmental body charged with the conservation of whales and the management of whaling."
"In 1986 the Commission introduced zero catch limits for commercial whaling. This provision is still in place today, although the Commission continues to set catch limits for aboriginal subsistence whaling."

So for the last 27 or so years they have advocated a no take situation but you seem to imply their main goal is the management of whaling?

The IWC was set up to manage whaling.
The original purpose was to conserve whale stocks for the purposes of an orderly development of the whaling industry.

Due to political pressures the anti-whaling agenda has been pushed to the forefront, so much so that a draft management plan to resume limited commercial hunting was shelved in 1991
This led to the chairman of the scientific committee resigning.
The science said the stocks were fine and that 2000 Minke could be harvested but it was parked because of political pressure.

It somes down to the rational and sustainable use of resources.

andy_g

tricky D wrote: »

Actually, if anything, their actions are undermining the responsible campaigning carried out by the likes of Greenpeace, Save the Whales et al, who, last time I checked, generally take the policy of observe and report and leave the enforcement of laws up to those whose task that legally is. SS take the law into their own hands and cross into illegality time and again. These actions actually are, if anything, damaging other more realistic, responsible and safe efforts to promote whale conservation.

Sorry to jump in on ya tricky but to be fair after being on a few campaigns i havent seen a green peace vessel anywhere near the southern ocean let alone out of their home port since 2006.

Yet they claim they have been there every year and recently tried to say that own sscs vessels in the ross sea/southern ocean.

Their fundraising teams have claimed the above. All i see green peace do is holding banners (Protest organisation) sscs are not a protest organisation and never will be they are a direct action organisation and it tends to be more effective/efficeant.


@Free dive ireland im not on the sscs stall at the show but will be there sunday i'll give ya a debate from crew point of view

Discodog

The IWC are mired in controversy. Counties that don't even have a coastline have been bribed to support whaling. Japan has spent a fortune buying IWC votes.

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/Environment/article316610.ece

CJhaughey

Discodog wrote: »

The IWC are mired in controversy. Counties that don't even have a coastline have been bribed to support whaling. Japan has spent a fortune buying IWC votes.

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/Environment/article316610.ece

Countries without a coastline like Switzerland, Hungary and Austria?

Discodog

CJhaughey wrote: »

Countries without a coastline like Switzerland, Hungary and Austria?

The Sunday Times found 6 members of the IWC who admitted to accepting bribes & even prostitutes in return for supporting Japan.

Some of the countries are land locked & have no fishing fleets. The suggestion was that some of these countries were persuaded to join the IWC by Japan in return for bribes.

CJhaughey

Discodog wrote: »

The Sunday Times found 6 members of the IWC who admitted to accepting bribes & even prostitutes in return for supporting Japan.

Some of the countries are land locked & have no fishing fleets. The suggestion was that some of these countries were persuaded to join the IWC by Japan in return for bribes.

Same can be said for the EU trying to get members to join.
Anyway, this is way OT now, this should be primarily about the seamanship or gross lack of it demonstrated by the SS

Discodog

CJhaughey wrote: »

Same can be said for the EU trying to get members to join.
Anyway, this is way OT now, this should be primarily about the seamanship or gross lack of it demonstrated by the SS

But if the Japanese are happy to take part in corruption & bribery they are just as likely to lie regarding seamanship issues.

long range shooter

Discodog wrote: »

But if the Japanese are happy to take part in corruption & bribery they are just as likely to lie regarding seamanship issues.

I don't think they call it whale wars for nothing,and I think that goes both ways.:D
Everything is allowed in love and war;)
The Japanese does it to get back commercial whaling,and sea Shepard does it to get more money and supporters,it's no end to this war.:eek:

Cookie_Monster

long range shooter wrote: »

I don't think they call it whale wars for nothing,and I think that goes both ways.:D
Everything is allowed in love and war;)
The Japanese does it to get back commercial whaling,and sea Shepard does it to get more money and supporters,it's no end to this war.:eek:

There's a simple and quick end if SS were actually serious and prepared to face up to their actions and thats to sink the whaling fleet once any ship is found. No money in that though

long range shooter

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

There's a simple and quick end if SS were actually serious and prepared to face up to their actions and thats to sink the whaling fleet once any ship is found. No money in that though

Sinking another ship is actually a declaration of war,according to international law.
the SS and co have ship registered in Holland and Australia,I don't think their governments wants war with Japan over whale research.:rolleyes:
And were does SS Get Their money from to keep up with the increasing maintenance needed to run Their ships??