The glorious 12th

downcow · 19-07-2019 6:54am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What fact, other than 'the Orange Order is in decline' did I........

It is also declining for a very specific set of reasons as outlind by Brian Kenneway in his writings, the former Grandmaster Ken Newell and that writer on Slugger.
.

Francie. I think you’re twisting of facts to demonise the OO have been see in their true light on this thread. And here you go again.

Ken Newell the former Grandmaster hahaha.
I was surprised to hear that the likes of ken Newell would be in the OO never mind hold it’s top position so I done a little research and low and behold he left it over 50 years ago and had no rank except chaplain of his local lodge - a bit like being secretary of you local darts club. So a big retraction needed here

As for Kennaway. He is about as far from a grassroots Orangeman as you can get. A member of a Dublin lodge which is a rarity to start with. You don’t seem to quote him when he blames Martin Maginnis for undermining the GFA or this statement “following the IRA ceasefire in 1994, the republican movement set a trap for the loyalist marching orders and those orders, including the Orange institution, walked into that vice with their eyes wide open. The trap was essentially a series of localised territorial struggles based around controversial marches. Residents' groups were formed in nationalist areas where Orange parades traditionally passed by or through; many of these ad hoc committees were headed up by convicted IRA men.”

He recommends the book ‘buried lives’ seems an interesting read for a few blinkered posters on here, as it outlines how Protestants were driven out of roi through discrimination which continues today.

...but don’t forget francie to retract you latest untruth about the grandmaster lol your best try yet

RobMc59 · 19-07-2019 7:34am

downcow wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If you read that Slugger article I posted you will see that there are many frictions between ordinary Protestants and the once all encompassing Order.

You are still struggling to understand our community.
Ulster Scots are known for the individualism and acceptance of diversity. It’s why we have dozens of churches and you have one, we play dozens of sports and yous focus on one, etc, etc.
We are happy with some loving the orange, some hating the orange and everything in between.
You don’t seem to get this and think it is weakness if we don’t all feel the same about Orangeism. So relax. It is healthy.
I think it will inevitably decline as I can’t see the pomp etc appealing to young people. But the band scene is growing fast. In fact I understand the loyalist band numbers have overtaken the orange membership for the first time. So the culture will evolve. But honestly it is fine and well

I asked a workmate who went to the orange March in Southport if the bands where from NI or Scotland, apparently there are English bands and their popularity is increasing year on year.

RobMc59 · 19-07-2019 8:24am

cameramonkey wrote: »

This is the tread from reddit about the naked orange man. I have to warn you that it contains a photo of shrunken mickey parts and badly stained underwear. Do not open if not prepared for naked man with excremented knickers.

https://www.reddit.com/r/northernireland/comments/cd1wnn/the_more_you_look_the_more_culture_you_see/

That picture has scarred me and is seared into my brain!small talliwackers and skiddy undercrackers aren't good viewing first thing in the morning!:)

Sunny Disposition · 19-07-2019 9:12am

RobMc59 wrote: »

That picture has scarred me and is seared into my brain!small talliwackers and skiddy undercrackers aren't good viewing first thing in the morning!:)

That’s brutal of course, but I understand you get drunken idiots a lot of places. What I would like to understand is why ordinary Protestants are so positive about these parades, even though the Orange Order excludes Catholics and has struggled pretty hard to march in areas where they are not wanted? Why is going to these marches not only seen as acceptable, but as an affirmation of Protestant identity even though the Order itself is often belligerent and is unashamedly exclusive of Catholics?

RobMc59 · 19-07-2019 10:23am

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

RobMc59 wrote: »

That picture has scarred me and is seared into my brain!small talliwackers and skiddy undercrackers aren't good viewing first thing in the morning!:)

That’s brutal of course, but I understand you get drunken idiots a lot of places. What I would like to understand is why ordinary Protestants are so positive about these parades, even though the Orange Order excludes Catholics and has struggled pretty hard to march in areas where they are not wanted? Why is going to these marches not only seen as acceptable, but as an affirmation of Protestant identity even though the Order itself is often belligerent and is unashamedly exclusive of Catholics?

Don't you think religion in the Western world is becoming less important in this day and age?There are a number of protestant and catholic churches that have closed in the area I live,in fact the only new religious buildings are mosques and an Elim church which I believe is neither catholic or protestant.
As regards protestants view of the OO I don't think religion matters as much but an interest in Ulster Scots culture isn't a bad thing and the marching bands are of interest to many

blanch152 · 19-07-2019 10:33am

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

That’s brutal of course, but I understand you get drunken idiots a lot of places. What I would like to understand is why ordinary Protestants are so positive about these parades, even though the Orange Order excludes Catholics and has struggled pretty hard to march in areas where they are not wanted? Why is going to these marches not only seen as acceptable, but as an affirmation of Protestant identity even though the Order itself is often belligerent and is unashamedly exclusive of Catholics?

Probably no more exclusive than your average Corpus Christi parade, though they have declined far more rapidly than the Orange Order marches.

The OO marches are an anachronism in that they are a quasi-religious occasion that has survived well into modern times, when other examples have fallen by the wayside. Similar Catholic traditions are on life-support while the OO marches have warped into something that attracts a wider audience.

The best thing for all would be if they could transform into something similarly benign as most St. Patrick's Day Parades.

Sunny Disposition · 19-07-2019 11:06am

blanch152 wrote: »

Probably no more exclusive than your average Corpus Christi parade, though they have declined far more rapidly than the Orange Order marches.

The OO marches are an anachronism in that they are a quasi-religious occasion that has survived well into modern times, when other examples have fallen by the wayside. Similar Catholic traditions are on life-support while the OO marches have warped into something that attracts a wider audience.

The best thing for all would be if they could transform into something similarly benign as most St. Patrick's Day Parades.

Yeah, it would be great if they transformed into something benign, but there doesn't seem to be any sign they are going to do so or any pressure from the community to change. As I mentioned above Ben Lowry is of the view they could be a tourist attraction, really seems to not see that they are deeply alienating to many.

Really an indictment that they continue as they are, seems the Orange Order doesn't care in the least how it is perceived by others, and many Protestants are happy to give it tacit support, despite its antagonism to Catholics.

downcow · 19-07-2019 11:25am

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

That’s brutal of course, but I understand you get drunken idiots a lot of places. What I would like to understand is why ordinary Protestants are so positive about these parades, even though the Orange Order excludes Catholics and has struggled pretty hard to march in areas where they are not wanted? Why is going to these marches not only seen as acceptable, but as an affirmation of Protestant identity even though the Order itself is often belligerent and is unashamedly exclusive of Catholics?

I think thats a serious question so I'll give it a go.

My wide family circle would almost all attend the twelfth every year. They are a diverse bunch, some fairly 'loyal', some not interested at all in politics, some evangelical religious, some not interested much in religion. A few in the OO but mostly not. Mostly middle-class, doing, nicely, well educated and good jobs. Mostly get on with their catholic neighbours just the same as their protestant neighbours.
So why do we all go to the twelfth?

I guess different reasons but for the vast majority it has zero to do with the OO and little or nothing to do with 1690.
Because of the way the OO is formed people are inclined to stay attached to thier local lodge for life and even if not in the OO will still chose to go to the twelfth of their childhood. This leads to a unique coming together, reunion, and catchup on whats been happening since last year
The day is really enjoyable
I love they way young teenage yahoos mix with families and grannies and everyone is totally respectful and friendly to each other - zero sense of antagonism or threat.
There is a lovely sense of helping eachother eg 'here take my seat', 'do you want a beer' etc with total strangers - there is nowhere else in my life that i experience such a camaraderie amongst such a huge crowd of diverse people
The range of bands are very impressive - I find myself welling up with emotion and pride at times as they pass - from world class pipers, to wee kids doing their best, to 'blood and thunder' bands making my hair stand in a very proud way
The troubles, conflict and more recently SF blocking parades has really help us, put a new lease of life into it, and cemented everyone together,
Just see what it means to people does your heart good
Thinking of friends who are missing for the first year or who passed many years ago.
I go to away football matches with NI, and in some senses that as near a metaphor as i can use - one difference the profile of people at an away match does not have much diversity eg age, gender

I remains difficult to understand why some nationalists feel so threatened by us enjoying a day out.

I have attended twelfths for 50 years and i have NEVER seen the slightest bit of agro or nastiness. I have experienced aggression and occasional difficulties at nightime band parades and 11th night fires but they are a different animal completely- but even there it is very rare

edit* ....and i suppose one of the most important bits for me is that i live in an area where i cannot show my culture/identity in any way and the twelfth is that opportunity . and maybe in my younger days was an important safety valve

blanch152 · 19-07-2019 11:28am

downcow wrote: »

I think thats a serious question so I'll give it a go.

My wide family circle would almost all attend the twelfth every year. They are a diverse bunch, some fairly 'loyal', some not interested at all in politics, some evangelical religious, some not interested much in religion. A few in the OO but mostly not. Mostly middle-class, doing, nicely, well educated and good jobs. Mostly get on with their catholic neighbours just the same as their protestant neighbours.
So why do we all go to the twelfth?
I guess different reasons but for the vast majority it has zero to do with the OO and little or nothing to do with 1690.

Because of the way the OO is formed people are inclined to stay attached to thier local lodge for life and even if not in the OO will still chose to go to the twelfth of their childhood. This leads to a unique coming together, reunion, and catchup on whats been happening since last year

The day is really enjoyable

I love they way young teenage yahoos mix with families and grannies and everyone is totally respectful and friendly to each other - zero sense of antagonism or threat.

There is a lovely sense of helping eachother eg 'here take my seat', 'do you want a beer' etc with total strangers - there is nowhere else in my life that i experience such a camaraderie amongst such a huge crowd of diverse people

The range of bands are very impressive - I find myself welling up with emotion and pride at times as they pass - from world class pipers, to wee kids doing their best, to 'blood and thunder' bands making my hair stand in a very proud way

The troubles, conflict and more recently SF blocking parades has really help us, put a new lease of life into it, and cemented everyone together,

Just see what it means to people does your heart good

Thinking of friends who are missing for the first year or who passed many years ago.

I go to away football matches with NI, and in some senses that as near a metaphor as i can use - one difference the profile of people at an away match does not have much diversity eg age, gender

I remains difficult to understand why some nationalists feel so threatened by us enjoying a day out.

I have attended twelfths for 50 years and i have NEVER seen the slightest bit of agro or nastiness. I have experienced aggression and occasional difficulties at nightime band parades and 11th night fires but they are a different animal completely- but even there it is very rare

Thanks for sharing that and giving us an insight.

votecounts · 19-07-2019 11:31am

downcow wrote: »

Francie. I think you’re twisting of facts to demonise the OO have been see in their true light on this thread. And here you go again.

Ken Newell the former Grandmaster hahaha.
I was surprised to hear that the likes of ken Newell would be in the OO never mind hold it’s top position so I done a little research and low and behold he left it over 50 years ago and had no rank except chaplain of his local lodge - a bit like being secretary of you local darts club. So a big retraction needed here

As for Kennaway. He is about as far from a grassroots Orangeman as you can get. A member of a Dublin lodge which is a rarity to start with. You don’t seem to quote him when he blames Martin Maginnis for undermining the GFA or this statement “following the IRA ceasefire in 1994, the republican movement set a trap for the loyalist marching orders and those orders, including the Orange institution, walked into that vice with their eyes wide open. The trap was essentially a series of localised territorial struggles based around controversial marches. Residents' groups were formed in nationalist areas where Orange parades traditionally passed by or through; many of these ad hoc committees were headed up by convicted IRA men.”

He recommends the book ‘buried lives’ seems an interesting read for a few blinkered posters on here, as it outlines how Protestants were driven out of roi through discrimination which continues today.

...but don’t forget francie to retract you latest untruth about the grandmaster lol your best try yet

Its Martin McGuinness ffs, I swear you do it on purpose

janfebmar · 19-07-2019 11:33am

Downcow, would most lodges in N Ireland be Orange lodges or lodges of the Masonic order? There is a difference. In Masonic lodges, all Faith's can and do join. To join you need to believe in a supreme being, so people of all Faith's can and do join. There are some Roman Catholics in the Masonic lodge here Iin the Republic, and in the states the Masonic order has lots of Catholics.
In the parades in N.I. do Masonic lodges parade on the 12th as well as the Orange lodges?

FrancieBrady · 19-07-2019 11:35am

downcow wrote: »

Francie. I think you’re twisting of facts to demonise the OO have been see in their true light on this thread. And here you go again.

Ken Newell the former Grandmaster hahaha.
I was surprised to hear that the likes of ken Newell would be in the OO never mind hold it’s top position so I done a little research and low and behold he left it over 50 years ago and had no rank except chaplain of his local lodge - a bit like being secretary of you local darts club. So a big retraction needed here

As for Kennaway. He is about as far from a grassroots Orangeman as you can get. A member of a Dublin lodge which is a rarity to start with. You don’t seem to quote him when he blames Martin Maginnis for undermining the GFA or this statement “following the IRA ceasefire in 1994, the republican movement set a trap for the loyalist marching orders and those orders, including the Orange institution, walked into that vice with their eyes wide open. The trap was essentially a series of localised territorial struggles based around controversial marches. Residents' groups were formed in nationalist areas where Orange parades traditionally passed by or through; many of these ad hoc committees were headed up by convicted IRA men.”

He recommends the book ‘buried lives’ seems an interesting read for a few blinkered posters on here, as it outlines how Protestants were driven out of roi through discrimination which continues today.

...but don’t forget francie to retract you latest untruth about the grandmaster lol your best try yet

Not a problem retracting that Newell was a grandmaster. If I make an error I retract, unlike some.

You can call quoting criticism from within twisting all you want. You can also shoot the messenger if you wish.

Stating that a decline in numbers from 70,000 to 30,000 and coupling it with backed up criticism from within the order, while witnessing the the public interaction of this Order is not telling any lies.

Imagine as that writer on slugger says, having to hide your membership while pursuing a career?

downcow · 19-07-2019 11:35am

janfebmar wrote: »

Downcow, would most lodges in N Ireland be Orange lodges or lodges of the Masonic order? There is a difference. In Masonic lodges, all Faith's can and do join. To join you need to believe in a supreme being, so people of all Faith's can and do join. There are some Roman Catholics in the Masonic lodge here Iin the Republic, and in the states the Masonic order has lots of Catholics.
In the parades in N.I. do Masonic lodges March as well as the Orange lodges?

No connection even though the OO copied most of the Masonic rituals and ceremony.
There is a big cross over and lots of orangemen are masons, and yes there are catholic masons in the north to, but a very small minority.
Interestingly the Masons don't let women in and the OO have lots of womens lodges

Masons have their own parades usually to church services but an increasing number of churches won't let them in - and some won't let the OO in

RobMc59 · 19-07-2019 12:34pm

The recent abuse received by James Mcclean was terrible but doesn't seem to be a one way occurrence.
https://amp.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/soccer/gazza-ira-threatened-to-kill-me-681733.html

FrancieBrady · 19-07-2019 12:49pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

The recent abuse received by James Mcclean was terrible but doesn't seem to be a one way occurrence.
https://amp.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/soccer/gazza-ira-threatened-to-kill-me-681733.html

I am sure like 'Barry McGuigan' Gazza has the official IRA headed paper to back up that it was the 'actual' IRA that threatened him and not some loon behind a keyboard pretending stuff.

The two important words in that article (and I wonder why you have to be schooled in these PR stunts) are 'promotional tour'.

'CIA'

:D It's a wonder he didn't throw the KGB in there...would have been worth another 1000 viewers for his doc.

blanch152 · 19-07-2019 12:54pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I am sure like 'Barry McGuigan' Gazza has the official IRA headed paper to back up that it was the 'actual' IRA that threatened him and not some loon behind a keyboard pretending stuff.

The two important words in that article (and I wonder why you have to be schooled in these PR stunts) are 'promotional tour'.

'CIA' :D It's a wonder he didn't throw the KGB in there...would have been worth another 1000 viewers for his doc.

Of course, the honorable IRA would never stoop so low as to threaten to kill someone. :rolleyes:

FrancieBrady · 19-07-2019 12:59pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Of course, the honorable IRA would never stoop so low as to threaten to kill someone. :rolleyes:

Yeh, they had a huge track record of knocking off Rangers supporters.

As granny used to say, 'Away and have a titter of wit, ye mad wee bairn'.

RobMc59 · 19-07-2019 1:47pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

RobMc59 wrote: »

The recent abuse received by James Mcclean was terrible but doesn't seem to be a one way occurrence.
https://amp.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/soccer/gazza-ira-threatened-to-kill-me-681733.html

I am sure like 'Barry McGuigan' Gazza has the official IRA headed paper to back up that it was the 'actual' IRA that threatened him and not some loon behind a keyboard pretending stuff.

The two important words in that article (and I wonder why you have to be schooled in these PR stunts) are 'promotional tour'.

'CIA' :D It's a wonder he didn't throw the KGB in there...would have been worth another 1000 viewers for his doc.

Fair play francie,that's a brilliant strategy when someone says something you don't like or posts a link not to your liking just say it's made up or put your fingers in your ears saying "I can't hear you!"-priceless! lol...

Sunny Disposition · 19-07-2019 1:58pm

downcow wrote: »

I think thats a serious question so I'll give it a go.

My wide family circle would almost all attend the twelfth every year. They are a diverse bunch, some fairly 'loyal', some not interested at all in politics, some evangelical religious, some not interested much in religion. A few in the OO but mostly not. Mostly middle-class, doing, nicely, well educated and good jobs. Mostly get on with their catholic neighbours just the same as their protestant neighbours.
So why do we all go to the twelfth?
I guess different reasons but for the vast majority it has zero to do with the OO and little or nothing to do with 1690.

Because of the way the OO is formed people are inclined to stay attached to thier local lodge for life and even if not in the OO will still chose to go to the twelfth of their childhood. This leads to a unique coming together, reunion, and catchup on whats been happening since last year

The day is really enjoyable

I love they way young teenage yahoos mix with families and grannies and everyone is totally respectful and friendly to each other - zero sense of antagonism or threat.

There is a lovely sense of helping eachother eg 'here take my seat', 'do you want a beer' etc with total strangers - there is nowhere else in my life that i experience such a camaraderie amongst such a huge crowd of diverse people

The range of bands are very impressive - I find myself welling up with emotion and pride at times as they pass - from world class pipers, to wee kids doing their best, to 'blood and thunder' bands making my hair stand in a very proud way

The troubles, conflict and more recently SF blocking parades has really help us, put a new lease of life into it, and cemented everyone together,

Just see what it means to people does your heart good

Thinking of friends who are missing for the first year or who passed many years ago.

I go to away football matches with NI, and in some senses that as near a metaphor as i can use - one difference the profile of people at an away match does not have much diversity eg age, gender

I remains difficult to understand why some nationalists feel so threatened by us enjoying a day out.

I have attended twelfths for 50 years and i have NEVER seen the slightest bit of agro or nastiness. I have experienced aggression and occasional difficulties at nightime band parades and 11th night fires but they are a different animal completely- but even there it is very rare

edit* ....and i suppose one of the most important bits for me is that i live in an area where i cannot show my culture/identity in any way and the twelfth is that opportunity . and maybe in my younger days was an important safety valve

That’s an interesting response, especially that you feel most people don’t go along for reasons to do with religion.
To be fair it is not a mystery why nationalists feel threatened around the 12th and the accompanying pageantry, everyone has seen the bonfires with tricolors put on them and GAA jerseys. Most remember the incidents at Garvaghy Road too.

You also say you can’t express your identity, which of course is wrong. Would you expand on that a bit?

FrancieBrady · 19-07-2019 1:58pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

Fair play francie,that's a brilliant strategy when someone says something you don't like or posts a link not to your liking just say it's made up or put your fingers in your ears saying "I can't hear you!"-priceless! lol...

No, Rob.

The difference between the sensationalist not even remotely backed up story you told about McGuigan being 'hounded out of his home county and Ireland' and Gazza's unbacked up sensationalist story is that you didn't see the need to introduce the CIA. (Probably because you were only selling a myth and not a book or documentary)

Like everything I read in the media...I require it to be backed up if I doubt it.

Something Gazza hasn't done and you haven't done.

FrancieBrady · 19-07-2019 2:27pm

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

That’s an interesting response, especially that you feel most people don’t go along for reasons to do with religion.
To be fair it is not a mystery why nationalists feel threatened around the 12th and the accompanying pageantry, everyone has seen the bonfires with tricolors put on them and GAA jerseys. Most remember the incidents at Garvaghy Road too.

You also say you can’t express your identity, which of course is wrong. Would you expand on that a bit?

It isn't just around the 12th that nationalists feel threatened by the OO. There is a permanent threat from the OO and a re-iteration of why it will always be a cold house and is mean't to be a cold house for Catholics or Nationalists/Republicans when you see siege mentality 'resolutions' like this.

Orange Order wrote:

We reflect on the centenary year of the formation of Lord Carson’s Ulster Volunteers, a great many of whom were members of the Orange Institution, and who were determined to defend for themselves and their children their cherished position of equal citizenship in the United Kingdom. We give thanks to God that at a time of crisis, men and women were prepared to take a stand for civil and religious liberty.

or:

We reaffirm our opposition to the introduction of any form of legislation for the Irish language. Such a move would have far reaching detrimental consequences for our British identity and would rightly be acknowledged as a landmark victory for republicanism in their ongoing cultural war against our community

blanch152 · 19-07-2019 2:59pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, Rob.

The difference between the sensationalist not even remotely backed up story you told about McGuigan being 'hounded out of his home county and Ireland' and Gazza's unbacked up sensationalist story is that you didn't see the need to introduce the CIA. (Probably because you were only selling a myth and not a book or documentary)

Like everything I read in the media...I require it to be backed up if I doubt it.

Something Gazza hasn't done and you haven't done.

Austin Stack backed it up, Mairia Cahill backed it up, Paudie McGahon backed it up, the relatives of Paul Quinn backed it up, yet you don't believe any of them.

FrancieBrady · 19-07-2019 3:20pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Austin Stack backed it up, Mairia Cahill backed it up, Paudie McGahon backed it up, the relatives of Paul Quinn backed it up, yet you don't believe any of them.

I would be fully satisfied that members of the IRA are alleged to have been involved in those cases. In fact I'd be sure of that, as those alleged to have been involved have admitted it themselves.

Not sure what your point is here?

Odhinn · 19-07-2019 3:25pm

...what have the RA to do with the orangemen and the 12th?

downcow · 19-07-2019 3:40pm

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

That’s an interesting response, especially that you feel most people don’t go along for reasons to do with religion.
To be fair it is not a mystery why nationalists feel threatened around the 12th and the accompanying pageantry, everyone has seen the bonfires with tricolors put on them and GAA jerseys. Most remember the incidents at Garvaghy Road too.

You also say you can’t express your identity, which of course is wrong. Would you expand on that a bit?

I honestly believe the unionist community would work very hard at clearing up the problem fires etc if they believed for one moment that the nationalists would then back of a little. I think the attitude is , sure whats the point, next it will be they want all the fires stopped.

You say i can express my identity!
I grew up and live in a town which will not tolerate any British culture. About the only thing happening is a small gathering and some poppies left at the war memorial - these are usually strewn over the road by evening time.
It would be dangerous for a young person to wear eg an NI football top and even an adult certainly wouldn't wear one in a bar at night (if they felt able to go in to a bar at all). I don't even wear a poppy because i feel people will think i am rubbing it in their faces etc etc.
So the twelfth and events like that are a release from the bigotry of my home town

downcow · 19-07-2019 3:42pm

Odhinn wrote: »

...what have the RA to do with the orangemen and the 12th?

I suppose they are responsible for some of the success of the 12th, as every time they oppose it people resolve to continue

blanch152 · 19-07-2019 3:43pm

downcow wrote: »

I honestly believe the unionist community would work very hard at clearing up the problem fires etc if they believed for one moment that the nationalists would then back of a little. I think the attitude is , sure whats the point, next it will be they want all the fires stopped.

You say i can express my identity!
I grew up and live in a town which will not tolerate any British culture. About the only thing happening is a small gathering and some poppies left at the war memorial - these are usually strewn over the road by evening time.
It would be dangerous for a young person to wear eg an NI football top and even an adult certainly wouldn't wear one in a bar at night (if they felt able to go in to a bar at all). I don't even wear a poppy because i feel people will think i am rubbing it in their faces etc etc.
So the twelfth and events like that are a release from the bigotry of my home town

It is terrible that that sort of intimidation on a daily basis continues in what we are told is a modern society.

Odhinn · 19-07-2019 3:52pm

downcow wrote: »

I suppose they are responsible for some of the success of the 12th, as every time they oppose it people resolve to continue

As long as its not inflicted on nationalist communities I doubt anyone will lose sleep over it.

cameramonkey · 19-07-2019 3:54pm

blanch152 wrote: »

It is terrible that that sort of intimidation on a daily basis continues in what we are told is a modern society.

That's the UK for you, the six counties are a failed political entity. I see people wearing poppies in Dublin every year with no problems.

FrancieBrady · 19-07-2019 3:55pm

downcow wrote: »

I suppose they are responsible for some of the success of the 12th, as every time they oppose it people resolve to continue

When have the IRA opposed it in the last 20 years etc.

What Unionism has to grow up and accept is that it is many many more people than the IRA who oppose state funded sectarianism. And it is long long overdue that this annual orgy of sectarianism has to be stopped and that they (Unionist leadership) have to be seen to be leading the way on it.

Would you accept that, without turning around and pointing at others, like blanch, rob, janfebmar are flat out trying to do? It really is no excuse.

downcow · 19-07-2019 3:56pm

cameramonkey wrote: »

That's the UK for you, the six counties are a failed political entity. I see people wearing poppies in Dublin every year with no problems.

Its always someone elses fault. We republicans are snowy white and innocent!

downcow · 19-07-2019 3:59pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

When have the IRA opposed it in the last 20 years etc.

.

Can I quote the person you brought into the debate a couple of pages back (Mr Kenaway) and you thought he was worth quoting.
Well here is what else he said
“following the IRA ceasefire in 1994, the republican movement set a trap for the loyalist marching orders and those orders, including the Orange institution, walked into that vice with their eyes wide open. The trap was essentially a series of localised territorial struggles based around controversial marches. Residents' groups were formed in nationalist areas where Orange parades traditionally passed by or through; many of these ad hoc committees were headed up by convicted IRA men.”

downcow · 19-07-2019 4:02pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What Unionism has to grow up and accept is that it is many many more people than the IRA who oppose state funded sectarianism. And it is long long overdue that this annual orgy of sectarianism has to be stopped and that they (Unionist leadership) have to be seen to be leading the way on it.
.

Sure you pointed out it is in speedy terminal decline. So i don't know why you just don't trust your own judgement and just sit back and watch the problem go away?

cameramonkey · 19-07-2019 4:02pm

downcow wrote: »

Its always someone elses fault. We republicans are snowy white and innocent!

You described a situation uover which the Irish people's independent government has no control, this situation that you describe takes place in the UK. Get the UK government or police to do something about it, it is the UK after all. Dont blame us for the problem created by the partition of Ireland,you have made your bed now go lie in it.

FrancieBrady · 19-07-2019 4:04pm

downcow wrote: »

Can I quote the person you brought into the debate a couple of pages back (Mr Kenaway) and you thought he was worth quoting.
Well here is what else he said
“following the IRA ceasefire in 1994, the republican movement set a trap for the loyalist marching orders and those orders, including the Orange institution, walked into that vice with their eyes wide open. The trap was essentially a series of localised territorial struggles based around controversial marches. Residents' groups were formed in nationalist areas where Orange parades traditionally passed by or through; many of these ad hoc committees were headed up by convicted IRA men.”

'Former' IRA men exist downcow. Something else you and Unionists need to get over.

No doubt Kennaway has a point, but that still doesn't hide the fact that there are many many many more people who object to this orgy of sectarianism.

FrancieBrady · 19-07-2019 4:06pm

downcow wrote: »

Sure you pointed out it is in speedy terminal decline. So i don't know why you just don't trust your own judgement and just sit back and watch the problem go away?

How did I know that the poster who pretends to be on here to have a debate and to try and understand, would come out with deflection like that?

Well done downcow!

maccored · 19-07-2019 4:11pm

downcow wrote: »

Its always someone elses fault. We republicans are snowy white and innocent!

reading this thread you;d swear it was "Its always someone elses fault. We loyalists are snowy white and innocent!"

FrancieBrady · 19-07-2019 4:13pm

maccored wrote: »

reading this thread you;d swear it was "Its always someone elses fault. We loyalists are snowy white and innocent!"

Note also who is desperate to make it a conversation about the IRA and the Catholic Church.

RobMc59 · 19-07-2019 4:14pm

downcow wrote: »

Sure you pointed out it is in speedy terminal decline. So i don't know why you just don't trust your own judgement and just sit back and watch the problem go away?

He could be realising that worldwide interest is growing outside NI in the whole mystique surrounding the Ulster Scots culture,music and history.

downcow · 19-07-2019 4:18pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well done downcow!

Thanks Francie. I needed to be said

downcow · 19-07-2019 4:19pm

cameramonkey wrote: »

You described a situation uover which the Irish people's independent government has no control, this situation that you describe takes place in the UK. Get the UK government or police to do something about it, it is the UK after all. Dont blame us for the problem created by the partition of Ireland,you have made your bed now go lie in it.

Yous have enough challenges of you own
https://www.donegaldaily.com/2018/10/16/men-sentenced-for-attacks-on-convoy-presbyterian-community/

FrancieBrady · 19-07-2019 4:22pm

downcow wrote: »

Yous have enough challenges of you own
https://www.donegaldaily.com/2018/10/16/men-sentenced-for-attacks-on-convoy-presbyterian-community/

Did you notice what happened him by any chance?

The OO get a pass. The PSNI and fire brigade spray water on the houses instead of the fecking fires for fear of upsetting you. :rolleyes:

Sunny Disposition · 19-07-2019 4:39pm

downcow wrote: »

I honestly believe the unionist community would work very hard at clearing up the problem fires etc if they believed for one moment that the nationalists would then back of a little. I think the attitude is , sure whats the point, next it will be they want all the fires stopped.

You say i can express my identity!
I grew up and live in a town which will not tolerate any British culture. About the only thing happening is a small gathering and some poppies left at the war memorial - these are usually strewn over the road by evening time.
It would be dangerous for a young person to wear eg an NI football top and even an adult certainly wouldn't wear one in a bar at night (if they felt able to go in to a bar at all). I don't even wear a poppy because i feel people will think i am rubbing it in their faces etc etc.
So the twelfth and events like that are a release from the bigotry of my home town

I didn't say you were lying about not being able to express your identity, I said you should be allowed to, and was asking what the problems were. Obviously I would condemn people being stopped from wearing anything they want or damaging WW1 memorials.

cameramonkey · 19-07-2019 5:05pm

downcow wrote: »

Yous have enough challenges of you own
https://www.donegaldaily.com/2018/10/16/men-sentenced-for-attacks-on-convoy-presbyterian-community/

As it should be in a proper functioning democracy, not like the sectarian still born six counties. You need to take a step back and see the six for what it is, its not a nice place, it needs to be brought to a place where religion dosnt matter and where the formerly supreme Loyalist are not trying to create an annual hate fest by harking back to their former glory days of repressing the natives. If a load of catholic nutters in a religious order were trying to intimidate protestants in Dublin where I live I would be out there trying to stop the madness. I dont understand the need to parade ones vile sectarian views to the world, frankly I would be ashamed if this was done in my name, you should be also.

blanch152 · 19-07-2019 5:06pm

cameramonkey wrote: »

That's the UK for you, the six counties are a failed political entity. I see people wearing poppies in Dublin every year with no problems.

There is always a republican coming along to explain and excuse unacceptable behaviour.

Is it a surprise that two of the top three posters in a thread about the 12th are nationalists?

cameramonkey · 19-07-2019 5:11pm

blanch152 wrote: »

There is always a republican coming along to explain and excuse unacceptable behaviour.

Is it a surprise that two of the top three posters in a thread about the 12th are nationalists?

I explained it yes but I didn't excuse it. You should learn to distinguish between the two.

All the posters are nationalist of a sort you just happen to be a British nationalist, I am an Irish republican. Again you should learn to discern the differences.

FrancieBrady · 19-07-2019 5:21pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

He could be realising that worldwide interest is growing outside NI in the whole mystique surrounding the Ulster Scots culture,music and history.

Yeh Rob...so 'interested' that the organisers of the biggest sporting event seen on this island spent 'months' negotiating with the 'mysterious Ulster Scots' and ended up curtailing their annual Orangefest event.

Perhaps they were afraid of the worldwide tourists overloading on 'de culture'?

RobMc59 · 19-07-2019 6:30pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yeh Rob...so 'interested' that the organisers of the biggest sporting event seen on this island spent 'months' negotiating with the 'mysterious Ulster Scots' and ended up curtailing their annual Orangefest event.

Perhaps they were afraid of the worldwide tourists overloading on 'de culture'?

With hindsight I did make it sound corny..What I meant was people around the world do have a fascination with Ireland-you don`t need me to tell you what the Americans think of the whole Island of Ireland!They are also fascinated with Scotland,whilst researching Scottish regiments I was surprised at the amount of Americans interested in that kind of stuff.

blanch152 · 19-07-2019 7:10pm

cameramonkey wrote: »

I explained it yes but I didn't excuse it. You should learn to distinguish between the two.

All the posters are nationalist of a sort you just happen to be a British nationalist, I am an Irish republican. Again you should learn to discern the differences.

Sorry, I am no British nationalist. I am an Irish nationalist.

Because I see nation as being of people rather than territory, and am welcoming of other nations, I am not susceptible to the my nation is better than your nation type of thinking that so many posters here indulge in.

And explaining violence as some on here do, only excuses it. There is no acceptable explanation for the intimidation as described for downcow.

FrancieBrady · 19-07-2019 7:16pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Sorry, I am no British nationalist. I am an Irish nationalist.

Because I see nation as being of people rather than territory, and am welcoming of other nations, I am not susceptible to the my nation is better than your nation type of thinking that so many posters here indulge in.

And explaining violence as some on here do, only excuses it. There is no acceptable explanation for the intimidation as described for downcow.

Who is saying one nation is 'better' than the other?

The glorious 12th

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