The glorious 12th

Stop moaning ffs

downcow wrote: »

Some of What I’ve learnt so far from you guys.

Paisley was in the OO up to 1962
The para flags and banners genuinely annoy some of you.
There is still incredible levels of misunderstanding and prejudice against my community in roi.
We all need to work harder at getting in the other’s shoes.

What I hope francie etc has learned.
Nationalists are being fed some utter nonsense about the community they share this island with.
Paisley did not form the independent OO
Contrary to nationalist urban myth, there has been less than two years this century when the NI first minister was also a member of the OO.
Arlene foster is not in the orange order.

What I think ‘stop moaning ffs’ has learnt
Nothing (sadly)

You haven’t offered anything other than cyclical repetitive questions that you refuse to answer yourself

You somehow think SF are running around killing people and how could anyone vote for them?
Can you qualify that please? And how it’s any different by your own ‘logic’ that the DUP are running around killing people and you game no problem voting for them?

downcow

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

They do. Mary Lou is actually td for my area.
I’m not aware of her killing anyone though?
If you know something we don’t you should probably call the police.

This was your statement
“As far as I know none of the parties down this way run around killing people or drug running”
I would never expect that of mary Lou having been born with a silver spoon in her mouth and attending public school. But I assume you know sf claimed to be the political wing of the ira and you would hardly deny that they done a fair bit of that.

downcow

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

You haven’t offered anything other than cyclical repetitive questions that you refuse to answer yourself

You somehow think SF are running around killing people and how could anyone vote for them?
Can you qualify that please? And how it’s any different by your own ‘logic’ that the DUP are running around killing people and you game no problem voting for them?

I think posters can judge for themselves who is and isn’t answering questions. It so obvious I don’t need to state it.

I don’t vote dup (if I’m honest I have done in the distant past)
I also think most people have educated themselves enough to know who was running around killing people.
Few up here can say they are squeaky clean. But the comparison you are making with sf and dup is ridiculous

Imreoir2

downcow wrote: »

There is still incredible levels of misunderstanding and prejudice against my community in roi.

When your community engages is an annual celebration, the centerpiece of which is a massive fire on which our national flag is regularly burned, your community is sending a message, and that message is understood well enough. That the leaders of your community do little or nothing to end this practice says alot about the prejudice rife in your community. People in glass houses should not throw stones.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Some of What I’ve learnt so far from you guys.



What I hope francie etc has learned.
Nationalists are being fed some utter nonsense about the community they share this island with.

Sorry, I am not seeing this, so please do not infer it is something I have 'learned' from you.

Paisley did not form the independent OO

Accepted.

Contrary to nationalist urban myth, there has been less than two years this century when the NI first minister was also a member of the OO.
Arlene foster is not in the orange order.

As usual on this forum, anecdote is not enough. I supplied this link which states 'Arlene is a committed member of the Order'

In May 2018, she announced she would be leading an Orange Order march in Fife, Scotland. As a committed member of the Order, this was a reason behind the original defection from the UUP ten years ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arlene_Foster

It is up to you to supply a link to debunk that.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

having been born with a silver spoon in her mouth and attending public school.

That never stopped some of the British army!




*You kinda walked yourself into that one in your haste to get a dig in.

Stop moaning ffs

downcow wrote: »

I think posters can judge for themselves who is and isn’t answering questions. It so obvious I don’t need to state it.

I don’t vote dup (if I’m honest I have done in the distant past)
I also think most people have educated themselves enough to know who was running around killing people.
Few up here can say they are squeaky clean. But the comparison you are making with sf and dup is ridiculous

NI is a bike.
Unionists own one wheel. Nationalists own the other. They’re both blaming each other for the breaking of the bike. When in fact they’re both responsible as they were trying to cycle in different directions.
That needs to stop. Down as far as you finger pointing really pathetically trying to associate Mary Lou with murder.
You just did that.
To what end I still can’t figure out.

*The bike is going to be taken back by London or Dublin and both wheels made to go in the same direction. Like it or not.
Can’t see either side being happy but if yis can’t work together and get over the finger pointing and blame game, yis don’t get to play on the bike

lawred2

downcow wrote: »

Do the shinners not stand in your area?

that's just pathetic

firemansam4

downcow wrote:

Are you equally sickened by how anyone could vote for people who have murdered their civilian neighbours or are you less sqeemish when it was the other sort they murdered.? You are trying to be simplistic and it’s not simple

You say I'm being too simplistic but I think it is you who are being too simplistic.

Myself I detest anyone who kills innocent human beings no mater what background.

However at the time these IRA men got all the support they did was at the height of the troubles, many people in Catholic communities felt that these men were standing up for their rights against the British. Bloody Sunday itself was a massive recruiter for the IRA, it turned many peoples opinions.

We are now well past those days and bar a very small few dissedents, the war is well over, so there should be no place to show any support for anyone who has openly admitted and not even being a bit repentant about murdering innocent people.

Stop moaning ffs

Downcow you should also be aware just because someone is Irish doesn’t mean they support SF

Quite the opposite. They got slaughtered at the last elections a few months back.
You need to widen your view and get a bit more familiar with our politics just as you claim we need to about your community

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

As usual on this forum, anecdote is not enough. I supplied this link which states 'Arlene is a committed member of the Order'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arlene_Foster

It is up to you to supply a link to debunk that.

It’s a tricky request. It’s like trying to prove god doesn’t exist. The likelihood of an article on Arlene not being a OO member would be strange

If you were in the orange community then you would accept the link below as absolute evidence. This is Arlene speaking on an orange platform at Cowdenbeath twelfth a couple of weeks ago. There is absolutely no way a member of the OO would be in that role without their sash on. But I guess you won’t accept it. But I will have confirmation from the horses mouth shortly if you will believe me relaying it

https://www.alamy.com/cowdenbeath-uk-june-30-2018-orange-order-march-takes-place-in-with-dup-chief-arlene-foster-in-attendance-credit-steven-scott-taylor-alamy-live-news-image210522607.html

https://www.alamy.com/cowdenbeath-scotland-uk-30-june-2018-more-than-4000-marchers-take-part-in-annual-battle-of-the-boyne-orange-walk-in-cowdenbeath-fife-the-walk-w-image210754542.html

realdanbreen

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It is time for Unionists crying 'but it's our culture' to take an unblinkered look at the south. A hard and honest look.

There they will see a 'culturally intact society' that has removed the toxic, archaic and restrictive influence of religious suprematism and control.

There is nothing to be afraid of, if you do this. And look around you, the fall in numbers willing to subscribe to organisations like the OO, shows you it is underway anyway.
Look at David Trimble, has he diminished as a person because he has modernised his outlook and thrown off the dogmatic religious shackles?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/trimble-says-daughter-s-same-sex-marriage-forced-him-to-change-view-1.3956543

Not sure if David Trimble should be lauded for changing his views on SSM. It seems he only changed his view because it impacted on his family. I know plenty of people of his generation who were always tolerant of these issues.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

It’s a tricky request. It’s like trying to prove god doesn’t exist. The likelihood of an article on Arlene not being a OO member would be strange

If you were in the orange community then you would accept the link below as absolute evidence. This is Arlene speaking on an orange platform at Cowdenbeath twelfth a couple of weeks ago. There is absolutely no way a member of the OO would be in that role without their sash on. But I guess you won’t accept it. But I will have confirmation from the horses mouth shortly if you will believe me relaying it

https://www.alamy.com/cowdenbeath-uk-june-30-2018-orange-order-march-takes-place-in-with-dup-chief-arlene-foster-in-attendance-credit-steven-scott-taylor-alamy-live-news-image210522607.html

https://www.alamy.com/cowdenbeath-scotland-uk-30-june-2018-more-than-4000-marchers-take-part-in-annual-battle-of-the-boyne-orange-walk-in-cowdenbeath-fife-the-walk-w-image210754542.html

I could go to her family home here and be back before you boil a kettle, never mind have a cup of tea.

Like Paisley, her pronouncements and support of the Order and it's beliefs, the people she stood on stage with at that meet you mentioned, it wouldn't really make any difference whether she says she is a member or not.

FrancieBrady

realdanbreen wrote: »

Not sure if David Trimble should be lauded for changing his views on SSM. It seems he only changed his view because it impacted on his family. I know plenty of people of his generation who were always tolerant of these issues.

I think Trimble is a despicable politician tbh. I am sure downcow thinks differently of him, as do people in the DUP.
My question was to them, 'is he any different as a man...etc etc'.

I personally find it odious that because he had to change his position when it affected him and his family personally that he didn't abjectly apologise to those he denied rights to and discriminated against as a legislator.

Stop moaning ffs

She certainly takes instruction from the OO so membership is implied whether its on record or not.

FrancieBrady

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

She certainly takes instruction from the OO so membership is implied whether its on record or not.

It is on record, it is on her Wikipedia page which she can have changed if she wishes.

But as you say, she wears the sash in every other way, like Paisley before her.

votecounts

downcow wrote: »

Some of What I’ve learnt so far from you guys.

Paisley was in the OO up to 1962
The para flags and banners genuinely annoy some of you.
There is still incredible levels of misunderstanding and prejudice against my community in roi.
We all need to work harder at getting in the other’s shoes.

What I hope francie etc has learned.
Nationalists are being fed some utter nonsense about the community they share this island with.
Paisley did not form the independent OO
Contrary to nationalist urban myth, there has been less than two years this century when the NI first minister was also a member of the OO.
Arlene foster is not in the orange order.

What I think ‘stop moaning ffs’ has learnt
Nothing (sadly)

Burning our national flag and marching where you are not wanted makes us understand you better.

downcow

votecounts wrote: »

Burning our national flag and marching where you are not wanted makes us understand you better.

We have already noted on many posts that young people on both sides here unfortunately burn the flag of what they see as the aggressor Happens the world over. It is just so sad if you measure a whole community by the actions of a few. Probably says more about you.

And I know you don’t like comparisons but there is a campaign to put Irish signs where people don’t want them

downcow

votecounts wrote: »

Burning our national flag and marching where you are not wanted makes us understand you better.

Can you imagine if a unionist Lord Mayor of Belfast done.
So much for those on here scolding my for suggesting Marley Lou leads a dodgy party

lawred2

downcow wrote: »

Can you imagine if a unionist Lord Mayor of Belfast done.
So much for those on here scolding my for suggesting Marley Lou leads a dodgy party

what?

downcow

votecounts wrote: »

Burning our national flag and marching where you are not wanted makes us understand you better.

Imagine if a unionist Lord Mayor of Belfast done this.
And people are scolding me for pointing out the type of party mary Lou leads

downcow

votecounts wrote: »

Burning our national flag and marching where you are not wanted makes us understand you better.

This is an excellent piece that should lead plenty on here to say to themselves, maybe we do need to look a little at our own nationalistic sectarian issues.
And note the happy middle aged middle class Dubliners. Now that’s something I haven’t seen on either side up north

https://www.quora.com/Why-did-officials-in-Northern-Ireland-allow-the-burning-of-the-Republic-of-Irelands-flag-during-12th-night-bonfires-Is-it-even-legal

firemansam4

downcow wrote:

We have already noted on many posts that young people on both sides here unfortunately burn the flag of what they see as the aggressor Happens the world over. It is just so sad if you measure a whole community by the actions of a few. Probably says more about you.

You have noted that on many posts and constantly ignored the fact that you are comparing a small minority of incidents to something that happens on a massive scale on the 12th of July every year.

BTW what that lord mayor done was as bad but yet again you are trying hard to find any single instances of where someone has burned the union jack to compare to what happens on a massive scale on the 12th of July.

How do you expect people in the Republic to react when they see that kind of carry on repeated year after year on a massive scale? It's hardly putting your culture in a positive light down this side of the border.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Imagine if a unionist Lord Mayor of Belfast done this.
And people are scolding me for pointing out the type of party mary Lou leads

You had to go back before the GFA to find a photo??? Jaysus.

RobMc59

downcow wrote: »

Imagine if a unionist Lord Mayor of Belfast done this.
And people are scolding me for pointing out the type of party mary Lou leads

Typical bullies who can give it but can`t take it back-In the words of Corporal Jones:"They don`t like it up em!"

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

Typical bullies who can give it but can`t take it back-In the words of Corporal Jones:"They don`t like it up em!"

1996 Rob.


Since then we have had the GFA and peace building by many committed people and yet year on year this problem around the 12th gets sadly worse.

It does your argument that you are an impartial observer no justice at all to side with downcow here.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You had to go back before the GFA to find a photo??? Jaysus.

Tell me how many recent ones you would like. I have tried to avoid posting stuff that shows nationalists in a bad light but since you are so much in denial I give you a few. If you need more let me know and I’ll oblige.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/burning-names-of-murdered-officers-a-hate-crime-t0l6jnfp3

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/bonfire-sign-glorifies-my-dads-murder-says-frazer-37197458.html

firemansam4

RobMc59 wrote:

Typical bullies who can give it but can`t take it back-In the words of Corporal Jones:"They don`t like it up em!"

What are you talking about? You are comparing an instance of something that happened many years ago before the GFA to the mass hate fest that goes on every year on the 12th of July.

You are clearly just trolling now...

downcow

RobMc59 wrote: »

Typical bullies who can give it but can`t take it back-In the words of Corporal Jones:"They don`t like it up em!"

The very words I was thinking when I saw their replies lol 😂

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

1996 Rob.


Since then we have had the GFA and peace building

That’s a bit rich. You had us back in 1962 looking for Paisley OO membership