3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

Brian Clowen · 09-11-2013 10:14am

I think you will all be delighted when you see Sam next to roisin or Niamh.

She is a much bigger vessel, some of the tech innovations are leaps forwards for the service and her operational tempo will be high from the start.

Just keep in mind that it is a ships company that makes the ship otherwise it's just a inanimate collection of steel, wires and plastics.

It's first crew is already flat out working if not on her then for her.

Internally and externally it is a very different ship, it hull and propulsion is very different, it's accommodation is very different.

It's tech is right up to date as well 13-14 years more advancements that anything prior.

Also rumour has it that there will be NO third vessel.

If we get a third vessel or subsequent vessels they will be off the shelf or second hand.

The well is dry in that regard and Aisling will be staying another 10 years at least and you might see 40 plus for eithne provided neither sink of course.

But never say never, we live in hope.

goldie fish · 09-11-2013 11:29am

Brian Clowen wrote: »

I think you will all be delighted when you see Sam next to roisin or Niamh.

.

I think the problem is, in these recessionary times, that to get P61 and P62 built, the Defence forces had to make huge savings, and closure of barracks was one of the main things to fund it.
The Well is now indeed dry. There are no more savings to be made, as the Defence Forces continue to every year come in under budget. A third vessel would mean the Government coming up with €50m of their own money usually, by taking it from somewhere else.
Off the shelf has never served us well in the past. though that has usually meant second hand too.

I look forward to seeing the internal layout of "Sam". I was impressed on my first visit to the Roisin, how spacious her crew accommodation was compared to what was found on Eithne. Indeed Eithne was a huge improvement over Aisling, Aoife and Emer, and they in turn were a massive improvement to was was normal on the Minesweepers, which were also a vast improvement on the Corvette Messdecks.
I have heard of the Propulsion changes, but can't help wonder will the engine room spaces overlap again or will they have a straight bulkhead separating them.

Again it is something I look forward to discovering, in due course.

Brian Clowen · 09-11-2013 10:01pm

I'm a actually going to have to edit my post above just taking to a chap today and never say never as I said.

The situation have now become very fluid again and I may have spoken to soon.

I love the new layout and I'm only sorry that I am restricted in what I can post here.

The use of space is what grabbed me standing in Sam, I'm delighted that nearly all the little items and suggestions where taken onboard.

It's a fabulous ship and the naval service has done the state some service in its design and construction.

It will be an honour to sail on her.

goldie fish · 09-11-2013 10:06pm

I look forward to seeing Sam, and your next edit

aindriu80 · 09-11-2013 11:31pm

A few more pictures would go down well

Markcheese · 11-11-2013 4:17pm

Would an ulstein x bow type vessel be way out of price range for Irish naval service ?? ( I know it's probably a long way down the line) ... But would have thought a multifunctional tug supply vessel that can operate quickly in poor conditions would suit the irish navy's role..

aindriu80 · 11-11-2013 6:13pm

Markcheese wrote: »

Would an ulstein x bow type vessel be way out of price range for Irish naval service ?? ( I know it's probably a long way down the line) ... But would have thought a multifunctional tug supply vessel that can operate quickly in poor conditions would suit the irish navy's role..

Probably if not certainty.. but then again if there was oil off the coast we could well afford to replace the navy with Le Samuel vessels and replace LE Eithne with FREMM multipurpose frigate or 2.

Markcheese · 11-11-2013 6:24pm

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=618

Don't think we'd need anything as big as the above,even one of their standard smaller supply vessels could do us...

goldie fish · 11-11-2013 6:51pm

Markcheese wrote: »

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=618

Don't think we'd need anything as big as the above,even one of their standard smaller supply vessels could do us...

I wouldn't rule it out.

zone 1 · 11-11-2013 9:15pm

this type of vessel design is working of our coast so why not proven design . this could be the future of ship

aindriu80 · 16-11-2013 7:11pm

sparky42 · 19-11-2013 9:01pm

Here's a potentially strange question for those that know better than I do?

With the announcement of the new River class ships for the RN and the uncertainty of whether they are in addition to the Rivers or replacing them, but the heel of the hunt, if in 3+ years the Rivers are being sold off as surplus would there be any interest from the Irish Navy to make up the hull numbers, or are we passed the point of buying second hands?

Just a random question?

aindriu80 · 20-11-2013 11:56am

here are some more pictures that you may or may not have seen. Le samuel beckett is due in Irish hands in March 2014.

goldie fish · 21-11-2013 12:07am

sparky42 wrote: »

Here's a potentially strange question for those that know better than I do?

With the announcement of the new River class ships for the RN and the uncertainty of whether they are in addition to the Rivers or replacing them, but the heel of the hunt, if in 3+ years the Rivers are being sold off as surplus would there be any interest from the Irish Navy to make up the hull numbers, or are we passed the point of buying second hands?

Just a random question?

It would be a retrograde step. In terms of technology, the RN River Class are on a par with the P20 class, albeit with a better hull.
No point making up the numbers if the hulls can't do the job. You'll not find the River class in the mid atlantic in January. Indeed, HMS Clyde which is based in the South Atlantic normally goes for refit during the harsh winter months, leaving the duty to the Antarctic Patrol ship.

sparky42 · 21-11-2013 12:12am

goldie fish wrote: »

It would be a retrograde step. In terms of technology, the RN River Class are on a par with the P20 class, albeit with a better hull.
No point making up the numbers if the hulls can't do the job. You'll not find the River class in the mid atlantic in January. Indeed, HMS Clyde which is based in the South Atlantic normally goes for refit during the harsh winter months, leaving the duty to the Antarctic Patrol ship.

Thanks for the opinion Goldie, I sort of figured that would be the case I was just wondering what the view of others would be, I'd hate to be the poor gunner sent to man the 20mm off the west coast considering how exposed it would be.

goldie fish · 22-11-2013 1:37am

aindriu80 wrote: »

here are some more pictures that you may or may not have seen. Le samuel beckett is due in Irish hands in March 2014.

A few dead links there Andriu. The photo's original source must have got pee'd off with you reposting them without giving due credit.

roundymac · 22-11-2013 11:22am

I see that the Oto Melara 76mm is already fitted to Samuel Beckett. When the P51s were delivered they did not have the 76mm gun fitted. It was later fitted in the Haulbowline. The reason given was that the Dept wanted it done this way because the EU were part funding them as fishery patrol vessels and were afraid the EU would consider them warships and withdraw the funding IIRC. Anyone know why the change this time?

aindriu80 · 22-11-2013 1:13pm

goldie fish wrote: »

A few dead links there Andriu. The photo's original source must have got pee'd off with you reposting them without giving due credit.

I just put them up for who ever wanted to see them.

roundymac · 22-11-2013 4:20pm

aindriu80 wrote: »

I just put them up for who ever wanted to see them.

But we can't see them, they are not working.

source · 22-11-2013 5:09pm

roundymac wrote: »

But we can't see them, they are not working.

I can see them fine.

Mr. Tezza · 22-11-2013 6:08pm

source wrote: »

I can see them fine.

I can't, well I can see some images but most are not available? it says "this image or video is currently unavailable"

Blocked by Flickr?

aindriu80 · 22-11-2013 7:04pm

I don't know.. they just decided to pull them. Its their right but pretty unfortunate if you wanted to see them

goldie fish · 22-11-2013 9:29pm

roundymac wrote: »

I see that the Oto Melara 76mm is already fitted to Samuel Beckett. When the P51s were delivered they did not have the 76mm gun fitted. It was later fitted in the Haulbowline. The reason given was that the Dept wanted it done this way because the EU were part funding them as fishery patrol vessels and were afraid the EU would consider them warships and withdraw the funding IIRC. Anyone know why the change this time?

The EU are not part funding these ships.

Larbre34 · 25-11-2013 6:01pm

aindriu80 wrote: »

Probably if not certainty.. but then again if there was oil off the coast we could well afford to replace the navy with Le Samuel vessels and replace LE Eithne with FREMM multipurpose frigate or 2.

At €600 million each? Maybe next millenium.

aindriu80 · 25-11-2013 8:17pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

At €600 million each? Maybe next millenium.

The Navy would probably be doing well to get all the existing ships replaced with new ones but health is €1bn over its budget every year.

nowecant · 05-12-2013 4:26pm

goldie fish wrote: »

3 is a vital option too.

Would this not be the cheapest option?

I'm not sure about how these contracts operate but does the INS own the design now or is it still an STX design. If we own the design can we order another ship at a lower cost? Would it also not be cheaper to maintain?

Also would the shipyard consider giving a better price to keep the work?

I am pro getting a larger EPV but I believe in the short term with the current budget constraints and the necessity of replacing a ship that OPV 3 is by far the best option.

goldie fish · 05-12-2013 7:44pm

nowecant wrote: »

Would this not be the cheapest option?

I'm not sure about how these contracts operate but does the INS own the design now or is it still an STX design. If we own the design can we order another ship at a lower cost? Would it also not be cheaper to maintain?

Also would the shipyard consider giving a better price to keep the work?

I am pro getting a larger EPV but I believe in the short term with the current budget constraints and the necessity of replacing a ship that OPV 3 is by far the best option.

It is. The contract ordered 2 ships at the agreed price, plus an option for a third at the same (2010) price. It is still an STX design.

While the EPV is definitely a worthwhile proposal, when given the option of:

no more OPVs and an EPV ordered sometime in the next 5-10 years with a long lead time
one more OPV within 2 years and no more ships in the foreseeable future

I'll happily take the latter. The Older ships are at(not approaching) the end of their useful life, with the operational tempo increasing. The new ships should be if things were done properly, in service now, but Former Useless ministers decided to not bother making a decision for almost 2 years.

roadmaster · 05-12-2013 9:04pm

i know a lot of other things would need to be put in place first but i was wondering if a cabinet Decision was taken to deploy the navy to the indian ocean to help combat the pirates in the area,would the new vessels be fit to go or would they need to be bulked up with better armour etc?

goldie fish · 05-12-2013 9:35pm

You wouldn't even need to send the new vessels. The Peacocks were designed to work in that type of climate, and there are smaller ships out there. Similarly, the P50s have already shown their ability to work in the Indian Ocean.

Ships really have not had armour since the 1940s.

Any of the ships other than the ancient P22 and P23 could easily go in the morning, should the political will exist.

roadmaster · 06-12-2013 4:44pm

goldie fish wrote: »

You wouldn't even need to send the new vessels. The Peacocks were designed to work in that type of climate, and there are smaller ships out there. Similarly, the P50s have already shown their ability to work in the Indian Ocean.

Ships really have not had armour since the 1940s.

Any of the ships other than the ancient P22 and

P23 could easily go in the morning, should the political will exist.

So say our vessels engaged the pirates and the pirates fired rpgs or maybe something heavier back would are vessels we able to take the hit with existing damage control and stay a float?

sparky42 · 06-12-2013 6:16pm

roadmaster wrote: »

So say our vessels engaged the pirates and the pirates fired rpgs or maybe something heavier back would are vessels we able to take the hit with existing damage control and stay a float?

What is portable enough to fit on the skiffs that the pirates use but heavier than an RPG? The only thing that would come to mind would be a suicide attack ala the USS Cole, but that would mean letting them get that close.

I'd say you'd need plenty of RPG's to threaten the floatation of any ship along with a complete failure of Damage Control.

Really the Irish ships are no better or worse protected than other navies ships.

Tabnabs · 09-12-2013 11:15am

An RPG, at close range, against a ship

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu1lsoxxuMI

Now change that to a naval ship and out in open seas...

Cork boy 55 · 09-12-2013 11:57pm

^^^^

That RPG hit a container full of illegal cigarettes on there way to Ireland
and led to an investigation and arrests IIRC.

Local-womanizer · 10-12-2013 1:13am

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

^^^^

That RPG hit a container full of illegal cigarettes on there way to Ireland
and led to an investigation and arrests IIRC.

Customs are really stepping up their game!

nowecant · 06-01-2014 3:32pm

In case anyone has not seen this

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/waiting-for-beckett-navy-to-get-new-ship-in-weeks-29884493.html

Waiting for Beckett: Navy to get new ship in weeks

THE Naval Service's new €50m 'Star Wars' patrol vessel will be delivered in six weeks after undergoing sea trials in the UK.

The LE Samuel Beckett will replace the 35-year-old LE Emer which was sold at auction last October to an African consortium.

The new ship will bring Ireland's fleet back to full capacity with a second new vessel, LE James Joyce, due for delivery in 2015.

The new ships, built by Babcock Marine in the UK, are developments of the design chosen for the LE Roisin/LE Niamh in 1997. However, the LE Samuel Beckett boasts so-called 'Star Wars' technology and is capable of operating remotely controlled drones or aerial vehicles.

Naval Service officials confirmed that the new ship will dramatically increase the technological capacity of the navy both in terms of surveillance and incident response times.

The ability to operate drones, which are already used by the Defence Forces, will also dramatically increase the navy's patrol and surveillance capabilities.

The ship can similarly operate remotely controlled mini-submarines. With a top speed of 23 knots, the new ships are faster than the vessels they replace.

Ireland has an option for a third vessel from the UK yard but the order can be stalled until 2015.

The Government has insisted the deal represents value for money and warned that Ireland cannot afford to revert to the "bad old days" of the 40s and 50s, when the Naval Service was totally reliant on a fleet of ageing and obsolete former Royal Navy corvettes.

The new ships are the first commissioned for the Naval Service in a decade.

Irish Independent

MRnotlob606 · 06-01-2014 5:26pm

we do have a an efficient navy but I think we need more vessels, le eithne is approaching 30 years old and its our flagship,I know Iceland doesn't have an a navy but its flagship of its costguard service is a 93 meter long OPV,I think it would be nice if we had something similar http://www.lhg.is/media/skip/thor/large/THOR8.jpg

sparky42 · 06-01-2014 9:28pm

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

we do have a an efficient navy but I think we need more vessels, le eithne is approaching 30 years old and its our flagship,I know Iceland doesn't have an a navy but its flagship of its costguard service is a 93 meter long OPV,I think it would be nice if we had something similar http://www.lhg.is/media/skip/thor/large/THOR8.jpg

The two new ships will be pretty much the same size, faster and better armed, the Thor only has refueling capability for their helicopters not a hanger so that's still limited. The bollard pull I could see as being beneficial to the navy for emergencies like that bulk carrier off Kinsale.

I wonder how much she cost?

Maoltuile · 07-01-2014 3:41pm

nowecant wrote: »

In case anyone has not seen this

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/waiting-for-beckett-navy-to-get-new-ship-in-weeks-29884493.html

The tossers have a photograph of the Eithne, not the Emer.

nowecant · 07-01-2014 3:47pm

Oh its woeful journalism all right. But at least its some confirmation of a time scale.

I'm just hoping they announce that they are taking up the option of a third such OPV in the coming months.

sparky42 · 07-01-2014 5:17pm

Maoltuile wrote: »

The tossers have a photograph of the Eithne, not the Emer.

I guess the Indo can't even look up Wiki to get the right ship:rolleyes:

sparky42 · 07-01-2014 5:19pm

nowecant wrote: »

I'm just hoping they announce that they are taking up the option of a third such OPV in the coming months.

I'd guess that they'll push it to next years budget time at best in order to push out the costs as far as possible but if we have the option till 2015 that's not too bad.

MRnotlob606 · 09-01-2014 10:46am

maybe they could do with a MRV ?

nowecant · 09-01-2014 12:54pm

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

maybe they could do with a MRV ?

If you read back through the posts there has been some discussion about this possibility, though even optimists on the topic would put it several years off

Larbre34 · 09-01-2014 2:07pm

nowecant wrote: »

If you read back through the posts there has been some discussion about this possibility, though even optimists on the topic would put it several years off

The DoD should be doing the research and specification for it now. The lead time on the P60's has been 7 years, they can be assessing off the shelf versus bespoke and getting the right option to fulfill the role for 30 years. Apart from the frigates our own Navy would be a similar order to the RNZN, and they have had serious problems with their MRV, Canterbury due to deficient design and fundamental flaws. That vessel cost €80m equivalent so if we are looking at spending 80-100m there are good lessons to be learned in a long design and build process.

goldie fish · 09-01-2014 2:47pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

The DoD should be doing the research and specification for it now. The lead time on the P60's has been 7 years, they can be assessing off the shelf versus bespoke and getting the right option to fulfill the role for 30 years. Apart from the frigates our own Navy would be a similar order to the RNZN, and they have had serious problems with their MRV, Canterbury due to deficient design and fundamental flaws. That vessel cost €80m equivalent so if we are looking at spending 80-100m there are good lessons to be learned in a long design and build process.

It's been done, an RFP was even issued, back in 2008. €180m (in 2008) was the expected cost for an EPV/MRV*. A decision on whether or not to tender for this type of ship would be taken after a decision is made whether or not to exercise the 3rd OPV option. A lot has been learnt from the Kiwi difficulties.

* (MRV is no longer used as an abbreviation for this type of ship, as it could be confused with the Cavalry Medium Recce Vehicle)

Tabnabs · 09-01-2014 3:27pm

Never mind the cost of building it, the cost of manning it would be phenomenal

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/US_Navy_110423-N-ZF681-011_Capt._Jesse_A._Wilson_commander_of_Pacific_Partnership_sits_in_the_captain%27s_chair_aboard_the_New_Zealand_navy_multirole.jpg/800px-US_Navy_110423-N-ZF681-011_Capt._Jesse_A._Wilson_commander_of_Pacific_Partnership_sits_in_the_captain%27s_chair_aboard_the_New_Zealand_navy_multirole.jpg

I've sailed on ships with smaller crews than that gathering.

goldie fish · 09-01-2014 4:34pm

Tabnabs wrote: »

Never mind the cost of building it, the cost of manning it would be phenomenal

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/US_Navy_110423-N-ZF681-011_Capt._Jesse_A._Wilson_commander_of_Pacific_Partnership_sits_in_the_captain%27s_chair_aboard_the_New_Zealand_navy_multirole.jpg/800px-US_Navy_110423-N-ZF681-011_Capt._Jesse_A._Wilson_commander_of_Pacific_Partnership_sits_in_the_captain%27s_chair_aboard_the_New_Zealand_navy_multirole.jpg

I've sailed on ships with smaller crews than that gathering.

That's just visitors. The crew on the HMNZS Canterbury is relatively small, at 109 in total, including 53 of the core ship's company, ten flight crew, four government agency officials, seven Army staff and 35 trainees.

Larbre34 · 09-01-2014 5:07pm

goldie fish wrote: »

* (MRV is no longer used as an abbreviation for this type of ship, as it could be confused with the Cavalry Medium Recce Vehicle)

Pedantic Pete strikes again. MRV is a globally recognised term or MRSV if you prefer. Put the two side by side on the water of Cork harbour and the confusion would end quick enough.

goldie fish · 09-01-2014 6:19pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

Pedantic Pete strikes again. MRV is a globally recognised term or MRSV if you prefer. Put the two side by side on the water of Cork harbour and the confusion would end quick enough.

I'm not being pedantic.

Appendix B Con/195/2006
Statement of Requirement EPV
Naval Service Patrol vessels are required to undertake a range of duties including, fishery protection, search and rescue, maritime protection, drug interdiction, anti-pollution and maritime security duties, including vessel boarding. The EPV will be required to provide an extended patrol capability capable of undertaking these duties throughout Ireland’s EEZ and in the adverse weather conditions of the North Atlantic. The following is an outline of the characteristics required to fulfil that role. The vessels must be designed and constructed to the Rules and Regulations of the International Association of Classification Societies (IACS).

Length 130 – 140M
Beam 16-20 m
Draft 4.0- 5.0 m

Max Speed 22-26 Kts Cruise Speed 15 Kts Loiter Speed 0 – 8 Kts

Range 8,500 nm Endurance 24 days

Propulsion Diesel, Diesel Electric, DE Hybrid,
Power Generation Diesel Generators, Shaft Alternator, PTO/PTI

Communications HF, VHF, UHF, GMDSS, SAT
Radars Navigation and Air Defence
Stabilisation Active and Passive

Flight Deck 1 Spot for a 10 metric tonne helicopter

Medical LEVEL 11, for 2 pers.

Accommodation Crew + 12 trainees.

Options
Proposals should be provided for the following additional options
1.Helicopter in-flight Refuelling Facility
2.Provision of Dynamic Positioning class 2 or 3
3.Because of the required size of the vessel, there may be potential to increase the utility of the vessel in other roles which would be desirable but not essential.* In this regard, the potential to provide a level of carrying capability for personnel, military vehicles and containers within the size and configuration of the vessel to which the mandatory requirements give rise, should be set out in the proposals.
In this regard, the proposal should indicate the possible arrangements/ combinations of personnel, vehicles and containers that could be accommodated and should indicate the lane metres that can be designed into the vessel.* Annex A indicates the type of items which might be carried on the vessel although not necessarily at the same time.* Proposals should include separately the option of a facility for cargo discharge where no port infrastructure exists.* The implications of including such carrying capacity and cargo discharge arrangements on the nature of the proposed vessel should be fully outlined in the proposal. As already stated above, these optional additional capabilities are desirable but are not essential requirements of the proposed patrol vessel.

nowecant · 09-01-2014 6:53pm

I've said it before but when I see that description I always think of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMS_Absalon_%28L16%29 but with significantly less fire power.

3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

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