3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

goldie fish

aindriu80 wrote: »

Need no, should yes. Of course we don't need anything but meet our E.U obligations on fishing.

Some of the foreign ships are proper crap. Maybe you were on one? However F for Frigate is still better than P for patrol no matter what providing they are relatively new ships.

What ships are like for the crew is one thing, what ships are to the taxpayer is another, what ships are to Ireland is something else again.

Personally I believe in getting Ireland out of the goldfish bowl. A bigger ship would stretch Ireland for the better. Whether that is walter mitty, needless or what I couldn't care less.

To have a ship working at its full capability, you need a crew working at its full capability. Proper crew accomodation helps in this case. The RN only recently came round to this way of thinking, where once it was 20 sailors to a messdeck, you now have 4 to a cabin. Denmark learnt this many years ago too.
I have been on more than one foreign frigate, British, US, French, Russian, Dutch, Australian they are all equally crap. Too many fittings sticking out, just waiting for people to be injured agains them when the ship is doing somersaults in an atlantic swell. In addition, while weapon related sensors may be state of the art, their engine management and conning control equipment has not moved with the times, and most are still 1950s, with big brass wheels on helm and manual engine throttle. Few have electronic charts, and the whole crewing system is by necessity, excessive.
Our P ships have longer range, similar speed, and require less bods to do the same job that the frigates will spend 90% of their life doing.,

Garzard

banie01 wrote: »

A lot of that €250mln cost is due to meeting NATO requirements and standards.
A lot of the cost in the German and Danish designs come down to the Armouring, the N.B.C enclosed citadel area and the very extensive multipurpose sensor suite, missile systems and electronics and ensuring interoperability with other NATO systems .

An Irish specced(Imagine a paddy spec car) ship would be of a much lower spec sensor wise,
Would have a much reduced electronics suite,
would almost certainly exclude any air defense element outside of E/O layed guns,
would have no ASW capability,
would likely also exclude the NBC element too.
And those ommisions alone would significantly reduce the cost of the ship itself.

Hopefully it wouldn't be stripped down to that extent. If it was up to me I'd probably keep everything it was built with for exercises, international missions and also for insurance itself.

aindriu80

goldie fish wrote: »

To have a ship working at its full capability, you need a crew working at its full capability. Proper crew accomodation helps in this case. The RN only recently came round to this way of thinking, where once it was 20 sailors to a messdeck, you now have 4 to a cabin. Denmark learnt this many years ago too.
I have been on more than one foreign frigate, British, US, French, Russian, Dutch, Australian they are all equally crap. Too many fittings sticking out, just waiting for people to be injured agains them when the ship is doing somersaults in an atlantic swell. In addition, while weapon related sensors may be state of the art, their engine management and conning control equipment has not moved with the times, and most are still 1950s, with big brass wheels on helm and manual engine throttle. Few have electronic charts, and the whole crewing system is by necessity, excessive.
Our P ships have longer range, similar speed, and require less bods to do the same job that the frigates will spend 90% of their life doing.,

The P vessels have done a very good job for us so far. There is no reason Ireland can't come up with its own design to suit our needs or at least nudge things in that direction. Seems as though the bigger ships(frigates) from the smaller countries in northern europe are not as streamlined as they should be.

Of course bigger ships require bigger crews and that would be a bit of a change for us plus longer time on board so they should be liveable.

goldie fish

The P50 and P60 is an irish design with the assistance of STX canada. P31, and all the P20s were also Irish designs, which were also built here.We have a long history of designing OPVs and other nations navies have taken a large leaf from our book.

Bigger ships do not necessarily need bigger crews.

Garzard

The RN's light carrier HMS Illustrious will be retired in a few years, I'm sure Britain would be delighted to sell it to us, and likely very cheaply, at that. Some helicopters, preferably second-hand IMO to further save costs to go with it would also come in handy for expanded SAR capablilites for example, for extra air support to the army, etc. The ship is still in great condition, has decent armanent and has also recently undergone a refit. Having the ship and the extra aircraft could expand the INS's capabilities hugely. Just an idea.

IRLConor

Garzard wrote: »

The RN's light carrier HMS Illustrious will be retired in a few years, I'm sure Britain would be delighted to sell it to us, and likely very cheaply, at that. Some helicopters, preferably second-hand IMO to further save costs to go with it would also come in handy for expanded SAR capablilites for example, for extra air support to the army, etc. The ship is still in great condition, has decent armanent and has also recently undergone a refit. Having the ship and the extra aircraft could expand the INS's capabilities hugely. Just an idea.

Total crew of all current Naval Service vessels put together: 389
Crew needed for Illustrious (before you add any aircraft): 685

You're talking about roughly tripling the staffing of the Naval Service. Even in the fantasy land where Ireland a) could afford b) needed and c) wanted Illustrious that would be a crazy thing to do. Adding the aircraft would require a similar large increase in the staffing of the Air Corps.

The fact that we don't have the money or a useful use for it is, of course, beside the point.

goldie fish

Garzard wrote: »

The RN's light carrier HMS Illustrious will be retired in a few years, I'm sure Britain would be delighted to sell it to us, and likely very cheaply, at that. Some helicopters, preferably second-hand IMO to further save costs to go with it would also come in handy for expanded SAR capablilites for example, for extra air support to the army, etc. The ship is still in great condition, has decent armanent and has also recently undergone a refit. Having the ship and the extra aircraft could expand the INS's capabilities hugely. Just an idea.

Morpheus

[MOD] Merged this thread into the old 2 new naval vessels thread. Also, this is one of my favorite threads, even as a honky I still like to see the "eeew sailors" get to play with new kit, but please try to refrain from muppetry and waltering if possible and keep the discussion alive.[/MOD]

aindriu80

Garzard wrote: »

The RN's light carrier HMS Illustrious will be retired in a few years, I'm sure Britain would be delighted to sell it to us, and likely very cheaply, at that. Some helicopters, preferably second-hand IMO to further save costs to go with it would also come in handy for expanded SAR capablilites for example, for extra air support to the army, etc. The ship is still in great condition, has decent armanent and has also recently undergone a refit. Having the ship and the extra aircraft could expand the INS's capabilities hugely. Just an idea.

Illustrious will go to India or somewhere like it. As for the new U.K carriers, they should be going in the same direction:D. The U.K needs to start again on a proper cat & trap carrier

Tabnabs

For about €60million we could get a brand new state of the art ship designed specifically for

Maritime Surveillance
Emergency Towing Operations
Fire Fighting
Environmental Response
Search and Rescue (SAR)
Helicopter In-Flight Refuelling (HIFR)
Fisheries Enforcement
Oil Recovery Operations (ORO)
Hydrographic Surveying
On-scene command and coordination platform



The INS have been carrying out RAS with the ILV Granuaile recently but this would open up a whole world of possibilities. A most suitable platform for their new ROV kit too. And a crew of just 18 needed.

aindriu80

Tabnabs wrote: »

For about €60million we could get a brand new state of the art ship designed specifically for

Maritime Surveillance
Emergency Towing Operations
Fire Fighting
Environmental Response
Search and Rescue (SAR)
Helicopter In-Flight Refuelling (HIFR)
Fisheries Enforcement
Oil Recovery Operations (ORO)
Hydrographic Surveying
On-scene command and coordination platform



The INS have been carrying out RAS with the ILV Granuaile recently but this would open up a whole world of possibilities. A most suitable platform for their new ROV kit too. And a crew of just 18 needed.

With all due respect that is a fishery/coast guard vessel.

Tabnabs

aindriu80 wrote: »

With all due respect that is a fishery/coast guard vessel.

With the same due respect, that's an OPV.

aindriu80

Tabnabs wrote: »

With the same due respect, that's an OPV.

Its still a coast guard vessel even if it comes under OPV classification.

I can appreciate if the scope of this thread is for vessels of the above nature, I for one would not want it on a shopping list. The new €50 million Irish ship looks like its better spec for the Navy.

Tabnabs

You're the very person talking about bringing new capabilities to the INS with new ships. How about something that can go to the North Pole (as you asked for) and do lots more besides.

http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/shipdetails.aspx?MMSI=259040000

€62m, radar and chopper not included.

aindriu80

Tabnabs wrote: »

You're the very person talking about bringing new capabilities to the INS with new ships. How about something that can go to the North Pole (as you asked for) and do lots more besides.


€62m, radar and chopper not included.

Going to the north pole is a realistic proposition for the Irish Navy at some point. We may not have the ship(s) to do it at the moment but its something the country should do. There are some in the Navy that have spoken in favour and there would be lots of spin offs for the country.

The above ship may be a very good suit for such a journey & more but I wouldn't get it . I would post a picture of a ship I think the Irish Navy should get but it might stretch things here.

banie01

Tabnabs wrote: »

You're the very person talking about bringing new capabilities to the INS with new ships. How about something that can go to the North Pole (as you asked for) and do lots more besides.

http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/shipdetails.aspx?MMSI=259040000

€62m, radar and chopper not included.

In fairness thats quite a capable vessel!
Even has a constant overpressure NBC system.
And the crewing requirement would fit nicely into current Irish naval manpower plans.
Swap the main gun for the Irish preferred 76mm and add a couple of 20mm.
Add in a TEU/Container capability and adding a crane perhaps by giving up part of the flight deck and hangerage.
Apparently it can take 2 helo's and that would free up a lot of usable space(Even all of it) while still allowing scope for later use as a helipad if we ever get back into naval helo's and even emergency use
It could be a very good fit for the navy's actual requirements, with the added benefit of Ice breaking capability too(Just in case we decide to head all the way north).

EDIT
But just to add:
I think the OPV90s on order fit our actual operational requirements and our future planned requirements quite well.
The above type vessel would fit nicely into the planned EPV slot, although so does the proposed Babcock EPV, albeit without the north pole capability necessary for some pointless flag waving exercises.

Capt'n Midnight

aindriu80 wrote: »

Illustrious will go to India or somewhere like it. As for the new U.K carriers, they should be going in the same direction:D. The U.K needs to start again on a proper cat & trap carrier

Going a bit off topic here but
The last UK through deck cruiser was scrapped in Turkey not sold.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/02/06/defence_committee_carrier_badness/page2.html

The estimated cost based on a STOVL [only] design was around £2 billion ... The estimated procurement cost of the future aircraft carriers using the innovative, adaptable design is around £3 billion.

The "innovative, adaptable" ships are now projected by the National Audit Office to cost £5.35 billion, so it's plain that around a third of that, some £1.8bn, comes from them being "adaptable" rather than STOVL-only. Except that it turns out they aren't adaptable at all - fitting them with catapults and arrester gear would, apparently, cost as much as buying two entire new ships.

To put that in perspective our defence budget for all services is about ~€1bn

The UK has bet a lot on the F35 working and being on time / on budget. Plan B is changing the carriers but that will only increase the gap when they have none. Not that they have any now aircraft now anyway, but if they had then HMS Ocean could fitted with a ramp no time.


Thing is if they can do without carrier aircraft for several years doesn't that mean the carriers are really just white elephants or that they are taking a huge risk ?

It's interesting to compare, the last time they had lined up the carriers for retirement they nearly lost the Falklands.

Also http://www.navytimes.com/news/2013/02/dn022213-f35-grounded-again-mil/

The Pentagon has suspended all test flights for the entire Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter fleet due to engine problems.

The move came nine days after the Pentagon cleared the F-35B jump-jet variant, designed for the U.S. Marines, to resume tests after a monthlong suspension. Both suspensions are due to problems with the engines. It also comes at a time when the program is facing increased scrutiny from lawmakers and senior DoD officials.

aindriu80

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

.....To put that in perspective our defence budget for all services is about ~€1bn....


Thing is if they can do without carrier aircraft for several years doesn't that mean the carriers are really just white elephants or that they are taking a huge risk ?

I'm not sure if the Royal Navy is relevant here ?

Its hard to compare the two countries defence wise but one looks like they could be doing better and the other one looks like it could do more.

There is no real big risk for the U.K with the carriers unless you take into account invasion but they need to go back to the drawing board with the new carriers.

goldie fish

aindriu80 wrote: »

Going to the north pole is a realistic proposition for the Irish Navy at some point. We may not have the ship(s) to do it at the moment but its something the country should do. There are some in the Navy that have spoken in favour and there would be lots of spin offs for the country.

The above ship may be a very good suit for such a journey & more but I wouldn't get it . I would post a picture of a ship I think the Irish Navy should get but it might stretch things here.

Seriously, dude, what drugs are you on?
Going to the north pole? In a ship? Why would we be the first to do it? In all my conversations with officers in the NS(those who make the decisions) not one has ever mentioned the north pole, except when telling how their kids want to see santas grotto there.

You still have not provided any reasons why.
At all.

aindriu80

goldie fish wrote: »

Seriously, dude, what drugs are you on?
Going to the north pole? In a ship? Why would we be the first to do it? In all my conversations with officers in the NS(those who make the decisions) not one has ever mentioned the north pole, except when telling how their kids want to see santas grotto there.

You still have not provided any reasons why.
At all.

Take it from me, you can drop the exploration side of things and concentrate on coastal vessels which I have no interest in.

Granted the idea of the north pole, ireland and navy in one sentence is truly laughable.

Well I was simply thinking aloud but I was reading about the the Indian Navy 'conquering' North Pole. I guess it could be done via plane but I was simply thinking that the navy could do it themselves and personally believe that the ships we have are limited for anything bar coastal patrolling

goldie fish

Jaysus Aindriu, I'm a hares breath away from putting you on ignore for the nonsense you are coming out with now. If you are going to make a statement at least have the balls to stand by it.

banie01

goldie fish wrote: »

Jaysus Aindriu, I'm a hares breath away from putting you on ignore for the nonsense you are coming out with now. If you are going to make a statement at least have the balls to stand by it.

I think this could be a great troll attempt!
Its gone from Ireland needing an armed sealift capability,going so far as to dismiss the use of civilian sealifts(as used by all major navies in everything apart from opposed landings)
To an ability to stand our ground and take on the world...
To Irish ships visiting the north pole because...
Hey if those pesky Indian navy types can do it! So should we!
Totally glossing over the fact that the Indian expedition was on fecking ski's not ships!
Not to mention discounting the new OPV's on the basis that they are only really suitable for coastal patrol!

Aindriu just what do you think the Irish Navy's primary mission is?
How much of it do you think boils down to coastal patrol and indertiction/enforcement in fairly inhospitable seas?
Which is exactly what the OPVs are designed to do while allowing a high degree of flexibility and crew comfort!

I'm actually very curious as to what ship you think the Navy should get?
I want to see how your choice of ship will fit into the reality of what the Navy's day to day roles actually are?
Its great to imagine a fleet in being with frigates and a wide range of kick ass armament and capability....
But....
Aside from a 1 in 100000 chance it would ever actually be used in anger, what actual benefit would it bring to the actual day to day navy's needs?
And
When we get these ships, what do we do about our Army?
Surely it needs beefing up to protect our naval investment from landward attack?
a few hundred Tanks? Stryker Gun Teams?
Do we then invest in a multi spectrum and layered air defence network to protect our(according to your wished on number) €10bln naval investment?
And how can we expect these units to operate effectively in the absence of at least a localised air superiority?
So what do we factor in to our spend on Fighters? Tankers? improved and dispersed airfields, not to mention ground crew?
The needs keep mounting as well as the costs!

Cardinal Richelieu

aindriu80 wrote: »

Going to the north pole is a realistic proposition for the Irish Navy at some point. We may not have the ship(s) to do it at the moment but its something the country should do. There are some in the Navy that have spoken in favour and there would be lots of spin offs for the country.

The above ship may be a very good suit for such a journey & more but I wouldn't get it . I would post a picture of a ship I think the Irish Navy should get but it might stretch things here.

OK I will bite, why do we need to have the capability to go to the North Pole?

aindriu80

Cardinal Richelieu wrote: »

OK I will bite, why do we need to have the capability to go to the North Pole?

We don't need the capability and I don't want to send this thread off on a tangent.

I am well aware of the Irish Navy primary role and obviously the real need is to replace the older vessels in the fleet with newer modern ones largely based on the Rosin etc if not a bit bigger and better.

Navies around the world do have numerous different roles and contribute economically to their country even though the primary role is defence.

aindriu80

goldie fish wrote: »

Jaysus Aindriu, I'm a hares breath away from putting you on ignore for the nonsense you are coming out with now. If you are going to make a statement at least have the balls to stand by it.

You can do that if you want. I'm not going to explain how to carry out any north pole trip.

A lot of the stuff I have seen here has been ATCP orientated (or something like it) and the navy can do something else. New navy ships should be primarily orientated around one force concept and helping out deployments (as opposed to the coast guard). Along with replacing the older PV's with newer ones (better hulled, better crew comfort, stretched PV's) they could tailor some of PV's to include helideck and fast deployment for special forces like the L'Adroit Gowind OPV


I don't know what the shape of the new ships are going to take but no mention of any heli borne operations and Rigid Inflatable Boats do look awkward to launch.

Anyway whatever is on the cards for the navy there is no new capability. Its bit of a quantum leap for the Irish Navy would operate something like the FREMM frigate. They aren't cheap at around €350m - €450m (depending on the fittings) but Morocco can operate (1) them and they really are a frontline warship for any operation we might participate on.

goldie fish

Ridge raiders?

Please stop.

Please.

zone 1

FP is the back bone of the naval service . what the hell would you want to be heading to the north pole. with no reason to be there in the first place stupid. with 8 ships id say its hard enough to luck after the seas they are tasked with

aindriu80

zone 1 wrote: »

FP is the back bone of the naval service . what the hell would you want to be heading to the north pole. with no reason to be there in the first place stupid. with 8 ships id say its hard enough to luck after the seas they are tasked with

aye popeye.

But seriously with the amount of worth under Irish territorial waters its an awful shame to spend so little on defence and have so few ships.

aindriu80

goldie fish wrote: »

Ridge raiders?

Please stop.

Please.

Rigid Inflatable Boats.

source

aindriu80 wrote: »

Rigid Inflatable Boats.

Rigid Hull Inflatable Boats or RHIBs.

We call them ribs on this side of the atlantic.