Army chief hopes to replace Air Corps fleet

sparky42 · 04-12-2013 8:48pm #1

I see in the Examiner that the Chief of Staff has just highlighted the need to for a new ship within the next 5 years, and that he wants to work with Finance on the Capital budget and this along with replacing the Cessna's are a priority for him in Capital projects.

goldie fish · 04-12-2013 10:20pm

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/army-chief-hopes-to-replace-air-corps-fleet-251550.html

Good to hear it. The cessnas are the real workhorses. All new pilots gain experience flying them. OPV 3 is a vital option too.

sparky42 · 04-12-2013 10:28pm

goldie fish wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/army-chief-hopes-to-replace-air-corps-fleet-251550.html

Good to hear it. The cessnas are the real workhorses. All new pilots gain experience flying them. OPV 3 is a vital option too.

That's the article alright I couldn't find it on the website. I'm curious as to what's to replace the 172's when they are talking about 2 million a piece? What are the current trainer types that would cost that?

goldie fish · 04-12-2013 10:43pm

The Cessna 172 has never been used as a trainer aircraft in irish military service. It is a Utility aircraft, providing comms cover for Cash and Prisoner escort, Photo recce, Parachute training,AA target drone towing, and any other duty as required. It would most likely be replaced by something like a PBN Defender (as used by GASU, only without the FLIR etc) or a Cessna Caravan. Keep in mind also that the last Kingair is approaching its end of life, meaning there is no multi engine trainer to bring pilots up to the standard to fly MPA or MATS aircraft.

But that has nothing to do with the 2 new naval vessels

sparky42 · 04-12-2013 10:48pm

goldie fish wrote: »

The Cessna 172 has never been used as a trainer aircraft in irish military service. It is a Utility aircraft, providing comms cover for Cash and Prisoner escort, Photo recce, Parachute training,AA target drone towing, and any other duty as required. It would most likely be replaced by something like a PBN Defender (as used by GASU, only without the FLIR etc) or a Cessna Caravan. Keep in mind also that the last Kingair is approaching its end of life, meaning there is no multi engine trainer to bring pilots up to the standard to fly MPA or MATS aircraft.

But that has nothing to do with the 2 new naval vessels

Ah that makes sense alright (and hopefully the smart option like having commonality with the GASU) . And certainly the news about the new ships is great! Do you figure the Navy using the Beckett for the year or so before the Joyce comes into service?Is there any limit regarding the option on the 3rd ship? Might some of this new found support for the Navy be related to Mellet getting promoted?

Really looking forward to seeing Beckett coming into Cobh, though Emer looks a bit forlorn in the Dockyard being worked on.

roadmaster · 05-12-2013 12:24am

Do we still have a kingair?

pilatus · 05-12-2013 2:44am

Goldie, the kingair is gone, sold last year to an American company and broken down for spares.

http://www.flyinginireland.com/news/irish-air-corps-super-king-air-200-sold-and-broken-up-october-2012.html

Stovepipe · 06-12-2013 11:56pm

GF, it is ironic that the Don never used the Cessna for pilot training or even basic flight screening. I remember them being touted as a temporary Marchetti replacement until the PC-9s came on stream and that option was flatly refused.Under no circumstance was one of the world's most popular training aircraft ever to be used for pilot training by one of the world's smaller air arms. You'd wonder how the great USAF managed to tolerate 172s for initial pilot screening for nigh on 40 years.

regards
Stovepipe

Leonidas BL · 09-12-2013 6:01pm

Wouldnt it make sense to pick A Pilatus aircraft over a Cessna because it would share engines components with the PC-9?

Victor · 09-12-2013 6:23pm

Leonidas BL wrote: »

Wouldnt it make sense to pick A Pilatus aircraft over a Cessna because it would share engines components with the PC-9?

Well, that would depend on the level of compatibility and how the numbers stack up.

Stovepipe · 09-12-2013 7:05pm

Pilatus would love it, of course, but could you imagine trying to keep an eye on a cash escort from 500 feet in a PC-12? They are more geared to corporate taxi work than roughing it at low level, being flown by a comparatively low houred pilot. Apart from that, the PT-6 in the PC-9 is probably not a direct swap or might only share compatible oil filters with a PC-12.
regards
Stovepipe

IRLConor · 09-12-2013 7:34pm

Stovepipe wrote: »

Pilatus would love it, of course, but could you imagine trying to keep an eye on a cash escort from 500 feet in a PC-12? They are more geared to corporate taxi work than roughing it at low level, being flown by a comparatively low houred pilot. Apart from that, the PT-6 in the PC-9 is probably not a direct swap or might only share compatible oil filters with a PC-12.
regards
Stovepipe

I would have assumed that in the hypothetical "you must buy from Pilatus" scenario that they'd get PC-6s rather than PC-12s.

It's still not a reasonable procurement strategy, but a PC-6 would be a more useful replacement for a 172 than a PC-12. (To this amateur at least.)

aindriu80 · 16-12-2013 11:04pm

the planes are small and only €2million each. I know we had the bailout but should be able to replace the cessnas. They are ancient.

logie101 · 18-12-2013 4:33pm

aindriu80 wrote: »

the planes are small and only €2million each. I know we had the bailout but should be able to replace the cessnas. They are ancient.

The unit cost for a cessna 172 or 182 is nowhere near €2 million. At most with full Ifr and military spec €250,000 each.

A cessna caravan could cost up to €2 million per unit.

Ideally what they should do is sell off 3 of the PC 9s and use that money to fund the purchase of the Cessnas. (In my opinion Pc9s were a bit over the top for the Aer Corp and should never have been bought. PC9s are really an advanced trainer used as lead in for fighters. So using them as primary trainers and the odd fly past is crazy.

aindriu80 · 18-12-2013 7:03pm

logie101 wrote: »

The unit cost for a cessna 172 or 182 is nowhere near €2 million. At most with full Ifr and military spec €250,000 each.

A cessna caravan could cost up to €2 million per unit.

Ideally what they should do is sell off 3 of the PC 9s and use that money to fund the purchase of the Cessnas. (In my opinion Pc9s were a bit over the top for the Aer Corp and should never have been bought. PC9s are really an advanced trainer used as lead in for fighters. So using them as primary trainers and the odd fly past is crazy.

I think they really need to keep the PC 9s to be taken serious. €250,000 is peanuts.

OS119 · 19-12-2013 1:14pm

aindriu80 wrote: »

I think they really need to keep the PC 9s to be taken serious....

how does a PC-9M get anyone taken seriously?

they are never deployed, and Ireland has not bought or trialled a single guided weapon for them - they are WWII fighters with better avionics.

they are a self-licking lollipop, Ireland has them to, er... train pilots on them, pilots who then go off to fly helicopters, or Multi-engined aircraft or C172's with less than half the performance. madness.

Stovepipe · 19-12-2013 2:01pm

In fairness to the PC-9s, they are used to train pilots on EFIS and in turbine engine handling, an environment to which they will ultimately graduate, ie,on the Casas,helis and executive aircraft. The Cessnas will probably be replaced by EFIS/turbine aircraft in due turn so continuity in training and operational service will be achieved.
regards
Stovepipe

Army chief hopes to replace Air Corps fleet

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