Does Israel want to wipe out the Palestinians?

Subcomandante Marcos · 15-05-2018 12:34pm

Odhinn wrote: »

....are you going to explain to us these complexities you refer to?

Or where the antisemitism is?

15-05-2018 12:34pm

ThinkProgress 5 weeks ago wrote: »

Israel is very heavy-handed... and I think they are correct to act in this manner! (not that I am saying I agree with every particular incident or decision)

Right. Put your money where your mouth is ThinkProgess.

Do you agree with them shooting 58 protestors?

Subcomandante Marcos · 15-05-2018 12:36pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Right. Put your money where your mouth is ThinkProgess.

Do you agree with them shooting 58 protestors?

"It's complex..."

reminds me of this:

Annd9 · 15-05-2018 12:40pm

People who claim you are anti semitic for supporting Palestine obviously do not understand what a semite actually is .
.

Richard308 · 15-05-2018 12:41pm

I’ll give an example if the idf were protecting the corrib gas pipeline and protestors who had criminal contempt to trespass the same as Palestinians what would the outcome be? If they shot the protestors? Is that acceptable?

nullzero · 15-05-2018 12:42pm

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Or where the antisemitism is?

Standard ADL type defense mechanism.
Or if you criticize Israel and you're Jewish then you're a "self hating Jew".

nullzero · 15-05-2018 12:44pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Right. Put your money where your mouth is ThinkProgess.

Do you agree with them shooting 58 protestors?

Still no answer...

Subcomandante Marcos · 15-05-2018 12:45pm

nullzero wrote: »

Standard ADL type defense mechanism.
Or if you criticize Israel and you're Jewish then you're a "self hating Jew".

The attempt by Israel, it's enablers and apologists to redefine the word antisemitism to describe criticism of the actions and policies of the state of Israel or opposition to it's illegal occupation, war crimes, human rights abuses and ethnic cleansing in Palestine is one of the most transparent, disgusting, despicable propaganda tools of the last few decades.

ThinkProgress · 15-05-2018 12:47pm

nullzero wrote: »

So if somebody takes issue with human rights violations carried out by Israel they're only doing so because they dislike Jews?

Prejudiced mindsets always find reasons why one side or one group, should be blamed over the other... And they can be totally convinced of their beliefs!

That's how these things work. How do you think the Nazis could convince an entire nation, that one group of people were to blame for everything bad that happened to them...??

Really, this should be obvious to people... especially with a conflict that is dominated by religion!

Anyone who thinks this is a one-sided conflict... is either deeply prejudiced, or just not particularly bright!

Annd9 · 15-05-2018 12:48pm

The funny thing is they claim to be" protecting" their border , however if their is no such place as palestine then what or where is Gaza and how can that have a border ?

If we go along with the Israeli point of view then surely they are just attacking a fence surrounding a very large compound of sorts within Israel itself .

nullzero · 15-05-2018 12:50pm

ThinkProgress wrote: »

Prejudiced mindsets always find reasons why one side or one group, should be blamed over the other... And they can be totally convinced of their beliefs!

That's how these things work. How do you think the Nazis could convince an entire nation, that one group of people were to blame for everything bad that happened to them...??

Really, this should be obvious to people... especially with a conflict that is dominated by religion!

Anyone who thinks this is a one-sided conflict... is either deeply prejudiced, or just not particularly bright!

You're veering way off topic now.
What are your feelings towards Palestinians? Do they have the same rights as any other human beings?

Subcomandante Marcos · 15-05-2018 12:51pm

Annd9 wrote: »

The funny thing is they claim to be" protecting" their border , however if their is no such place as palestine then what or where is Gaza and how can that have a border ?

If we go along with the Israeli point of view then surely they are just attacking a fence surrounding a very large compound of sorts within Israel itself .

The "border" is more of an abstract concept than a real thing to Israel and it's apologists. If you never define it, you never have to validate your claims that you are "defending" it.

Odhinn · 15-05-2018 12:51pm

ThinkProgress wrote: »

Prejudiced mindsets always find reasons why one side or one group, should be blamed over the other... And they can be totally convinced of their beliefs!

That's how these things work. How do you think the Nazis could convince an entire nation, that one group of people were to blame for everything bad that happened to them...??

Really, this should be obvious to people... especially with a conflict that is dominated by religion!

Anyone who thinks this is a one-sided conflict... is either deeply prejudiced, or just not particularly bright!

Are you going to explain these complexities to us....? hmmm?

Annd9 · 15-05-2018 12:51pm

That's how these things work. How do you think the Nazis could convince an entire nation, that one group of people were to blame for everything bad that happened to them...??

Eh what do you think is happening right now in Israel ?

Subcomandante Marcos · 15-05-2018 12:53pm

ThinkProgress wrote: »

Prejudiced mindsets always find reasons why one side or one group, should be blamed over the other... And they can be totally convinced of their beliefs!

That's how these things work. How do you think the Nazis could convince an entire nation, that one group of people were to blame for everything bad that happened to them...??

And that's how you have the Zionits convince almost an entire nation and it's religious fanatic supporters over seas that Palestinian's (a) don't exist (b) never existed historically (c) even if they did exist they don't deserve human rights because god said this is our land.

nullzero · 15-05-2018 12:55pm

Come on ThinkProgress, you've been asked some very simple questions which should have some very simple answers...

You keep telling us how we're lacking intellectually for not agreeing with you, show us that brain of yours in full swing.

Wheres Me Jumper? · 15-05-2018 1:06pm

Richard308 wrote: »

I’ll give an example if the idf were protecting the corrib gas pipeline and protestors who had criminal contempt to trespass the same as Palestinians what would the outcome be? If they shot the protestors? Is that acceptable?

silly comparison, totally different situations:o

Zebra3 · 15-05-2018 1:17pm

Mutant z wrote: »

The Palestinian population has risen by 7 or 8 fold since 1948 so its a strange sort of genocide that the Israelis are supposedly carrying out.

It’s not a genocide, it’s ethnic cleansing.

The fact that the Palestinian population has grown doesn’t detract from the racist ethnic cleansing carried out by Israel.

But you seem happy enough to trot that line out to deflect attention away from the hundreds of Palestinian villages that have been destroyed by Israel to deter Palestinians from returning to claim their homes/land.

Many of these villages have forests planted in their place thanks to funding from the JNF.

Yet for some reason people think the Palestinians are the problem. :rolleyes:

Grayson · 15-05-2018 1:18pm

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

silly comparison, totally different situations:o

Not really. The seems default reaction in Israel and the occupied territories is to treat all protesters as enemy combatants. Generally the majority of those killed are unarmed.

And before anyone here says I'm anti israel, I'm not. I think it has a right to exist. I just think that illegal settlements are wrong. I think the occupation is wrong. Palestinians have every right to be angry. That doesn't justify violence either, it's just saying that the palestinians have very real grievances.

Subcomandante Marcos · 15-05-2018 1:19pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

It’s not a genocide, it’s ethnic cleansing.

The fact that the Palestinian population has grown doesn’t detract from the racist ethnic cleansing carried out by Israel.

But you seem happy enough to trot that line out to deflect attention away from the hundreds of Palestinian villages that have been destroyed by Israel to deter Palestinians from returning to claim their homes/land.

Many of these villages have forests planted in their place thanks to funding from the JNF.

Yet for some reason people think the Palestinians are the problem. :rolleyes:

And continued demolition of entire villages in the Neveg and West Bank. Let's not forget this is a current, continuous activity, not a one off event.

Wheres Me Jumper? · 15-05-2018 1:25pm

Grayson wrote: »

Not really. The seems default reaction in Israel and the occupied territories is to treat all protesters as enemy combatants. Generally the majority of those killed are unarmed.

And before anyone here says I'm anti israel, I'm not. I think it has a right to exist. I just think that illegal settlements are wrong. I think the occupation is wrong. Palestinians have every right to be angry. That doesn't justify violence either, it's just saying that the palestinians have very real grievances.

and what would the likely outcome be if the IDF allowed these "protestors" cross that border?
please choose

a peaceful sitdown
rowdy scenes followed by destruction of property
delivery of a strongly worded letter
a reasoned and mature debate
mass-murder

Odhinn · 15-05-2018 1:27pm

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

and what would the likely outcome be if the IDF allowed these "protestors" cross that border?
please choose
a peaceful sitdown

rowdy scenes followed by destruction of property

delivery of a strongly worded letter

a reasoned and mature debate

mass-murder

Why do you think that all those shot were trying to get across the border (apart from any IDF statement that they were)?

Zebra3 · 15-05-2018 1:28pm

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

and what would the likely outcome be if the IDF allowed these "protestors" cross that border?
please choose
a peaceful sitdown

rowdy scenes followed by destruction of property

delivery of a strongly worded letter

a reasoned and mature debate

mass-murder

An opportunity for the victims of ethnic cleansing to reclaim their homes?

Surely you wouldn’t deny the victims of crime the right to get their stolen property back, would you?

Or are you a racist who thinks the Palestinians don’t deserve justice?

Deusexmachina · 15-05-2018 1:31pm

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

An embassy that is costing us hundreds of thousands per year and millions over the duration of it's lease.

We have diplomacy in order to try to prevent violence. As Mandela said, if you want peace with your enemy, you have to work with your enemy. Then he becomes your partner.

Deusexmachina · 15-05-2018 1:32pm

zapitastas wrote: »

Cease the theft of Palestinian lands, return to 67 borders, compensate refugees for loss, give equal rights to Palestinians residing within Israel, lift blockades. Act like humans

So, that’s not going to happen. Now what?

Snickers Man · 15-05-2018 1:33pm

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

I would hope the Irish defence forces would shoot dead any person or groups who would try to cross our border with criminal intent.

Really?

You think, then, that the Irish Defence Forces should have shot dead the future First Minister of Northern Ireland Peter Robinson when he made a football hooligan yob of himself along with a few chums in Clontibret back in 1986?

What do you think would have been the effect of that?

You and all the other numbskulls who "liked" this post(
ameirecan, Diceicle, DrPhilG, galwayrush, JCX BXC, MarkY91, Officer Giggles, Rezident, StereoSound, studdlymurphy, Ulysses Gaze, wherearewe45, YouSavedMyLife) are beneath contempt.

As are the Israelis.

All those Nobel laureates and they can't work out how to make peace.
All that technology and they put most of it to use in weapons of mass destruction, while whinging that anybody else possessing weapons is a terrorist.
All that history of oppression and they seem to have learned nothing from anyone except the oppressors.

Mod-Banned

Foxhound38 · 15-05-2018 1:33pm

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

And, as usual, it is a bunch of fascist Israeli "politicians" that profit from keeping the conflict going so that they can siphon off more aid money from the West and win the votes of fascist settler f*ckbends. And at the same time, sacrifice Palestinian kids so that they can do so.

Fyp

Israel-Gaza Conflict 2014

The children killed during the Israeli Gaza Conflict of 2014

Israeli settlers celebrate bombings in Palestine

And you're surprised the Palestinians aren't happy about this? The CURRENT Israeli Justice Minister called for GENOCIDE against them MULTIPLE TIMES for jaysus sake... And they are just supposed to be OK with that?

Grab All Association · 15-05-2018 1:33pm

I’m sick and f-Ing tired of this conflict. Sanctions for both until a two state or even better equal shared secular state is created. Northern Ireland being the example.

Odhinn · 15-05-2018 1:33pm

Deusexmachina wrote: »

So, that’s not going to happen. Now what?

Support BDS.

Subcomandante Marcos · 15-05-2018 1:34pm

Deusexmachina wrote: »

We have diplomacy in order to try to prevent violence. As Mandela said, if you want peace with your enemy, you have to work with your enemy. Then he becomes your partner.

No, we have an embassy occupying 1 floor of a multi-story building which the government pays the rent, security, and rates on which is un-used because the Israeli Embassy has made it completely unsuitable for use by government employees (it's intended purpose) due to their ridiculous security demands.

They should be told to find a more suitable building and toddle off.

Grayson · 15-05-2018 1:36pm

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

and what would the likely outcome be if the IDF allowed these "protestors" cross that border?
please choose
a peaceful sitdown

rowdy scenes followed by destruction of property

delivery of a strongly worded letter

a reasoned and mature debate

mass-murder

I never said that did it? I never said that they should let protesters through the boarder. Can you point out where I said that they should let people cross the border? What you did right there was make crap up.

Every single other civilized country can deal with protesters and even rioters without using assault rifles on them.

Subcomandante Marcos · 15-05-2018 1:37pm

Deusexmachina wrote: »

So, that’s not going to happen. Now what?

Hold Israel accountable to international law.
Impose sanctions until they do.
Boycott them.
Expel their ambassadors until they comply.
Ban them from cultural, academic and sporting activities until they comply.

It's not rocket science.

FTA69 · 15-05-2018 1:37pm

Can any of the people whinging about the Palestinian leadership actually state what they should be doing? Because all I can see is outright condemnation of their refusal to simply sit back and accept being ethnically cleansed off their own land. Hamas are sh*t in a number of ways, but they aren't the problem here.

Long before Hamas were a power, Israel was seizing and settling land and declared that the entirety of the Holy Land was theirs and that the native inhabitants were simply trespassers.

Deusexmachina · 15-05-2018 1:41pm

Odhinn wrote: »

Support BDS.

And what will that achieve?

This is like the same old nonsense that extended the troubles for 30 years. Zero sum thinking. No thought for the other side, no compromise.
The SinnFein illusion that Unionists would eventually accept and welcome a United Ireland.
2000 deaths and 30 years and guess what? Peace talks and compromise.
It’s the only thing that works

Wheres Me Jumper? · 15-05-2018 1:41pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

An opportunity for the victims of ethnic cleansing to reclaim their homes?

Surely you wouldn’t deny the victims of crime the right to get their stolen property back, would you?

Or are you a racist who thinks the Palestinians don’t deserve justice?

i don't know whether to laugh or cry.
do you honestly think they ever stood a snowballs chance of reclaiming their "stolen property" back ??? :eek:

i hear they're selling left-handed burgers now ...

Subcomandante Marcos · 15-05-2018 1:42pm

Deusexmachina wrote: »

And what will that achieve?

Worked when we did it to South Africa.

Happy Monday · 15-05-2018 1:42pm

Seth Yellow Cobra wrote: »

After today's massacre, over 55 dead so far. Absolutely no regard for Palestinians basic human rights. What is the end game? Tomorrow marks the 70th anniversary of the Nakba and things are only getting worse. Events in the occupied territories are worse than anything endured in apartheid south Africa. They need support from the ground up from all people as the political will is not there.

No - they want Palestinians to respect their borders.
The terrorist Hamas leadership are committed to wiping Israel off the map.
But that ain't going to be happening you can be sure.

Odhinn · 15-05-2018 1:42pm

Deusexmachina wrote: »

And what will that achieve?

...forces Israel to the table, and imposes consequences for its actions.

15-05-2018 1:43pm

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

i don't know whether to laugh or cry.
do you honestly think they ever stood a snowballs chance of reclaiming their "stolen property" back ??? :eek:

i hear they're selling left-handed burgers now ...

The same would have been said about Ireland in the 1800s, yet here we are.

Deusexmachina · 15-05-2018 1:44pm

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Hold Israel accountable to international law.
Impose sanctions until they do.
Boycott them.
Expel their ambassadors until they comply.
Ban them from cultural, academic and sporting activities until they comply.

It's not rocket science.

That’s fair - if your intention is to get them to the negotiation table. But then there needs to be realism and compromise.

Subcomandante Marcos · 15-05-2018 1:44pm

Deusexmachina wrote: »

Peace talks and compromise.
It’s the only thing that works

When have Israel ever been willing to compromise? It's been outlined several times in this thread how they have never in good faith made an offer of a free Palestinian state, not once. And when they came closest in Taba they withdrew the day the agreed upon deal was about to be signed, a deal which was made possible because the Palestinian side made massive concessions to what they were entitled to under international law.

Deusexmachina · 15-05-2018 1:46pm

Odhinn wrote: »

...forces Israel to the table, and imposes consequences for its actions.

As long as that’s the strategy, fine, I agree.

tayto lover · 15-05-2018 1:47pm

ThinkProgress wrote: »

Prejudiced mindsets always find reasons why one side or one group, should be blamed over the other... And they can be totally convinced of their beliefs!

That's how these things work. How do you think the Nazis could convince an entire nation, that one group of people were to blame for everything bad that happened to them...??

Really, this should be obvious to people... especially with a conflict that is dominated by religion!

Anyone who thinks this is a one-sided conflict... is either deeply prejudiced, or just not particularly bright!

Maybe you could list the gains made by the Palestinians since 1948 and enlighten us all?

Subcomandante Marcos · 15-05-2018 1:49pm

tayto lover wrote: »

Maybe you could list the gains made by the Palestinians since 1948 and enlighten us all?

Or, specifically, gains that Israel didn't object to or the US didn't try to veto.

Wheres Me Jumper? · 15-05-2018 1:49pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The same would have been said about Ireland in the 1800s, yet here we are.

try going up to East Belfast and asking for your property back
tell them Paddy Pearse & The Fenians sent ya

FTA69 · 15-05-2018 1:50pm

Deusexmachina wrote: »

And what will that achieve?

This is like the same old nonsense that extended the troubles for 30 years. Zero sum thinking. No thought for the other side, no compromise.
The SinnFein illusion that Unionists would eventually accept and welcome a United Ireland.
2000 deaths and 30 years and guess what? Peace talks and compromise.
It’s the only thing that works

The Israeli prime minister has stated "there will never be a Palestinian state" and is presiding over settlements and land grabs. What 'compromise' do you think the Palestinians are refusing to make here? They're beaten and utterly defeated.

The reason there is no peace process is because Israel holds all the cards and do whatever they like, so tell us, what do you think the Palestinians should do and what do you think should be done to bring Israel to the negotiating table?

15-05-2018 1:52pm

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

try going up to East Belfast and asking for your property back
tell them Paddy Pearse & The Fenians sent ya

Aye, and then I'd deserve to get shot in the face according to many here.

Subcomandante Marcos · 15-05-2018 1:54pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Aye, and then I'd deserve to get shot in the face according to many here.

Sure you'd be agitating them and provoking a reaction. They'd blame your family for teaching you about your history.

Grayson · 15-05-2018 1:56pm

FTA69 wrote: »

The Israeli prime minister has stated "there will never be a Palestinian state" and is presiding over settlements and land grabs. What 'compromise' do you think the Palestinians are refusing to make here? They're beaten and utterly defeated.

The reason there is no peace process is because Israel holds all the cards and do whatever they like, so tell us, what do you think the Palestinians should do and what do you think should be done to bring Israel to the negotiating table?

Plus over the last 50 years the Palestinians have agreed to numerous agreements. Each of which was broken by the Israelis.

The whole conflict is complex and multi layered. However this map, as simple as it it, shows that the palestinians have reasons to be angry and distrustful.

Richard308 · 15-05-2018 2:00pm

explain how completely different? Unarmed protesters trying to gain access to an area they’re not permitted to enter? Or do you mean that we live in a civilised country where we don’t shoot unarmed protestors and Israel isn’t civilised

Does Israel want to wipe out the Palestinians?

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