Dublin Marathon moves to lottery entries!

is_that_so · 29-10-2019 2:01pm

There goes the I've run every marathon record for some!

mloc123 · 29-10-2019 2:01pm

adrian522 wrote: »

do you have a source for this? All I've seen is that they are using a lottery system to distirubute the entries?

In what sense has it been ruined? By using a lottery system it takes out the possibility of people missing out due to websites crashing due to excessive demand when entries go on sale.

People had 4-5 weeks, weeks!! to get an entry for 2019 before it sold out

ultrapercy · 29-10-2019 2:04pm

OOnegative wrote: »

We have to moan about something A, we are Irish after all!!!

Ya you never hear britts or yanks moaning. Oh wait now....

nannerby · 29-10-2019 2:05pm

ultrapercy wrote: »

My club had 72 in the race this year mostly in age categories representing teams and figthing for individual medals too. That number is likely to be greatly reduced from now on replaced by batmen and wonderwomen vloging their way around the course on instagram. Anyone who watches the hideous spectacle that is the London Marathon on BBC will know whats coming. Dublins compeditive atmosphere will be diluted and it will loose a lot of the club championship feel it had.

yes there are a huge amount of masters doing the DCM because its the nat champs really hope these don't lose out.

bucketybuck · 29-10-2019 2:09pm

mloc123 wrote: »

People had 4-5 weeks, weeks!! to get an entry for 2019 before it sold out

And the technical problems were from the 2500 extra tickets released in the summer.

I just don't get the logic, none of the reasons given appear to match what actually was happening and the lottery seems like a solution in search of a problem.

SeeMoreBut · 29-10-2019 2:12pm

How does the national championship work? I say a tiny % only have a chance in it.

Some people sound like the race should be only aai only and when we are happy we might allow some others in.

So much for the friendly marathon. Turning into elitist

morceli · 29-10-2019 2:12pm

solidasarock wrote: »

I wonder how many places will now be siphoned off to 3rd party tour providers that will gladly sell you a guaranteed place for a few hundred euro.

Jim Aughney gonna get that second house!

Bit harsh there...

Plumbthedepths · 29-10-2019 2:13pm

bucketybuck wrote: »

And the technical problems were from the 2500 extra tickets released in the summer.

I just don't get the logic, none of the reasons given appear to match what actually was happening and the lottery seems like a solution in search of a problem.

Purely down to greed. Opens up revenue streams that wouldn't exist without a lottery.

Pacing Mule · 29-10-2019 2:14pm

Very interesting comment on Facebook in reply to someone asking why not make it 30,000 entries.

"we don't have permission for 30K but if that is what is in the system then we can go to the city and ask for 30K tharts the point of doing this/"

nannerby · 29-10-2019 2:16pm

SeeMoreBut wrote: »

How does the national championship work? I say a tiny % only have a chance in it.

Some people sound like the race should be only aai only and when we are happy we might allow some others in.

So much for the friendly marathon. Turning into elitist

Only a small % have a chance of winning the senior title but you have huge numbers in the age catagories and teams.
Id be happy if aai move it to another marathon it would be nice to have a championship race outside of Dublin.

solidasarock · 29-10-2019 2:19pm

morceli wrote: »

Bit harsh there...

I dont see any other reason for the move.

As others have said, the DCM sold out in weeks meaning anything that wanted a entry could get one. Its not like London or Berlin that sell out in hours. Anyone disappointing because they waited a month after entry opened only had themselves to blame.

This move is bad for local athletic clubs.
Its bad for local small time charity runners who just want to race a few bob for their local support group.
Its bad for joe bloggs who runs the marathon every year as a goal to keep his fitness up and to have a goal while training.

Sure seems like it will be great for generating money for the organizers though.

morceli · 29-10-2019 2:21pm

solidasarock wrote: »

I dont see any other reason for the move.

As others have said, the DCM sold out in weeks meaning anything that wanted a entry could get one. Its not like London or Berlin that sell out in hours. Anyone disappointing because they waited a month after entry opened only had themselves to blame.

This move is bad for local athletic clubs.
Its bad for local small time charity runners who just want to race a few bob for their local support group.
Its bad for joe bloggs who runs the marathon every year as a goal to keep his fitness up and to have a goal while training.

Sure seems like it will be great for generating money for the organizers though.

Well saying its for the man to buy a new house is just unfair and wrong , you can criticize the event but that is out of order.

OOnegative · 29-10-2019 2:22pm

Is Jim Aughney not passing the job on soon?

Krusty_Clown · 29-10-2019 2:23pm

How much do we think it's actually going top be over-subscribed by? As others have pointed out, it's not Tokyo, Berlin or London. At a guess, I'd say they might be over-subscribed by 5k, so the lottery would be (again guessing optimistically), 25k entries, for 20k places (assuming 2.5k entries kept for AAI and overseas). That gives you an 80% chance of getting a spot.

Now hypothetically (there's a lot of it in this post!), 1.5K successful entrants seek a refund in July, because they either didn't train or got injured. All of those places are released to those who didn't get in, in the first ballot round. Now your chances of getting an entry have gone up to something approximating 86% (25k entries for 21.5k places). So (based on a lot of conjecture and potentially incorrect mathematics), you have an 86% chance of getting through the ballot, plus additional opportunities via the good-for-age option. This is likely to dis-improve over time, as people just love to enter a lottery (and are lazy/forgetful about seeking refunds). Will be interesting to see how much extra money this will bring in for DCM. They wouldn't be doing it, if it was cost-neutral. Interesting to note that the cost of entry is no longer staggered - minimum pricing is €93 (including booking fee).

justdoit · 29-10-2019 2:27pm

Murph_D wrote: »

Where are you hearing this, L? All the official announcement says is:

There will be 22,500 places available for the 2020 KBC Dublin Marathon, with a number of these places allocated to Athletics Ireland membership. Athletics Ireland members will qualify under the Good For Age standards and can apply on April 1st and must have a valid Athletics Ireland membership.

http://kbcdublinmarathon.ie/2020-entry-process/

I think he was correcting my assertion that for London, somebody living in any country could apply for GFA (as opposed to referencing the new GFA system for Dublin). I caused the confusion :-)

KSU · 29-10-2019 2:30pm

Murph_D wrote: »

Where are you hearing this, L? All the official announcement says is:

There will be 22,500 places available for the 2020 KBC Dublin Marathon, with a number of these places allocated to Athletics Ireland membership. Athletics Ireland members will qualify under the Good For Age standards and can apply on April 1st and must have a valid Athletics Ireland membership.

http://kbcdublinmarathon.ie/2020-entry-process/

I was correcting the OP regarding other marathons having GFA open to all and not restricted by Nationality (or AI affiliation in this case)

Worth noting that it is gonna make sure alot of runners pay their club dues as applies to valid AI membership which needs to be renewed each year by club after subscriptions paid

SeeMoreBut · 29-10-2019 2:31pm

Is gfa in London require you to be a member of a club?

Will the rule of making sure they were their club singlet be enforced also?

Burkie1203 · 29-10-2019 2:32pm

Cona wrote: »

17685 runners out of 22,500 entries this year. That seems above the normal percentage of no-shows on average. I know personally of quite a few entries that were going unused last week, was thinking to myself that demand was starting to level off.

Depends on the demand level in July on the re-sale. If they had 20000 people looking for an entry.

First come first served should come with a June 30th deadlime to confirm. If you don't confirm by that date then put those entries into a general sale or a lottery.

nannerby · 29-10-2019 2:34pm

SeeMoreBut wrote: »

Will the rule of making sure they were their club singlet be enforced also?

I don't think that counts in the marathon champs.

adrian522 · 29-10-2019 2:35pm

solidasarock wrote: »

I wonder how many places will now be siphoned off to 3rd party tour providers that will gladly sell you a guaranteed place for a few hundred euro.

Jim Aughney gonna get that second house!

Pretty disgraceful accusation to throw out to be honest.

Hurrache · 29-10-2019 2:36pm

Pacing Mule wrote: »

Very interesting comment on Facebook in reply to someone asking why not make it 30,000 entries.

"we don't have permission for 30K but if that is what is in the system then we can go to the city and ask for 30K tharts the point of doing this/"

Wait, so they're basically going for the oul planning retention route that some use to try circumvent laws?

Hey guys, but we oversold by x amount, surely you can't expect us to manage the disappointment when we're the ones that purposely done it, sure you might as well let everyone run.

KSU · 29-10-2019 2:36pm

SeeMoreBut wrote: »

Is gfa in London require you to be a member of a club?

Will the rule of making sure they were their club singlet be enforced also?

London require you to be UK resident (proof of address required). AFAIK it's not club enforced but that is because VLM are trying to get away from clubs and make more money from the charity spots so the numbers of GFA and Championship are decreasing to make way.

KSU · 29-10-2019 2:40pm

Hurrache wrote: »

Wait, so they're basically going for the oul planning retention route that some use to try circumvent laws?

Hey guys, but we oversold by x amount, surely you can't expect us to manage the disappointment when we're the ones that purposely done it, sure you might as well let everyone run.

This happened a few years ago and to be fair it wasn't oversold it was set at 20,000 which sold out and after discussions with Gardai and CC they put together a new plan which allowed them to sell an additional 2,500 spots.

KSU · 29-10-2019 2:41pm

nannerby wrote: »

I don't think that counts in the marathon champs.

It does unless there is prior approval from the RD.

Hurrache · 29-10-2019 2:42pm

KSU wrote: »

This happened a few years ago and to be fair it wasn't oversold it was set at 20,000 which sold out and after discussions with Gardai and CC they put together a new plan which allowed them to sell an additional 2,500 spots.

But this time they've admitted (assuming person who posted that speaks for the organisers) what they're up to, trying to circumvent their agreed conditions and force the hand of the city.

tHE vAGGABOND · 29-10-2019 2:48pm

I think a lot of people here need to stop throwing toys out of the pram. You may have entered the lotteries for London or another major, but hundreds of thousands of people enter them, so the chances of getting a place are quite small..

That will not be the case here...

And maybe giving more places to charities and turning it into more of a fundraising thing is a great thing. If 15k people raised an average of 300 quid each [only] thats 4.5 million quid for charities around the place. I've done the Ring of Kerry cycle twice, and had to get entry via a charity both times. That cash is one of the huge sources of funding for some charities around Munster.

[Asked above, London GFA - can be any old Joe Soap, only need to prove the time and prove the uk residency. For Boston you can be from anywhere. But if you get in via GFA these days, you cannot defer entry. Run it that year or tough **** - as I would think there was *LOADS* of folks using a time [since your GFA time is only valid for 2 years] and pushing it out.

rainbow kirby · 29-10-2019 2:48pm

KSU wrote: »

London require you to be UK resident (proof of address required). AFAIK it's not club enforced but that is because VLM are trying to get away from clubs and make more money from the charity spots so the numbers of GFA and Championship are decreasing to make way.

It's only championship entries (sub 2:45 men/sub 3:15 women) that require membership of a UK club.

bucketybuck · 29-10-2019 2:49pm

Hurrache wrote: »

But this time they've admitted (assuming person who posted that speaks for the organisers) what they're up to, trying to circumvent their agreed conditions and force the hand of the city.

Not necessarily. There is a difference between circumventing guidelines, and implementing a system that more clearly shows what the level of interest actually is.

If DCM needs real stats and figures to justify expansion then having X amount of entries to a lottery is one way to do it.

Cona · 29-10-2019 3:01pm

Its quite funny to see how they are dealing with the backlash on FB. The announcement says that the lottery system will give no precedence to previous runners of the marathon. But in the comments section, the organizers are saying that loyalty will be a top priority.

Looks like they didnt think this one throught fully yet.

tomwaits48 · 29-10-2019 3:07pm

If DCM announced they would pay €100 per person to run the race you would have people moaning it wasn't enough.

average_runner · 29-10-2019 3:10pm

Cona wrote: »

Its quite funny to see how they are dealing with the backlash on FB. The announcement says that the lottery system will give no precedence to previous runners of the marathon. But in the comments section, the organizers are saying that loyalty will be a top priority.

Looks like they didnt think this one throught fully yet.

Yeah i think they announced it too early.

Obviously they will have to give x amount of places to the clubs to match the number of volunteers the clubs provide, but not just for the marathon, but also the race series.

It will sort itself out, just some people are over reacting and panicking.

6run28 · 29-10-2019 3:13pm

Very disappointing move. It seems quite unnecessary seeing as it took over a month to sell out last year. Cutting the early bird ( ie the regular runners) instantly gets them gets them an extra €210k by using lottery only system. If they needed stats for increasing size, a waiting list for transfers would do this. Hopefully it doesnt turn into a fancy dress parade like London

Plumbthedepths · 29-10-2019 3:15pm

6run28 wrote: »

Very disappointing move. It seems quite unnecessary seeing as it took over a month to sell out last year. Cutting the early bird ( ie the regular runners) instantly gets them gets them an extra €210k by using lottery only system. If they needed stats for increasing size, a waiting list for transfers would do this. Hopefully it doesnt turn into a fancy dress parade like London

Unfortunately a fancy dress parade is the ultimate destination.

TheW1zard · 29-10-2019 3:21pm

Bananaleaf wrote: »

TheW1zard this isn't directed at you personally, but this, in my opinion, is the problem with it being just the €15 to enter.

Listened to a podcast interview with Jim Aughney where he was asked about the potential rise of the number to 30,000 participants. He cited logistical problems as a reason for being reluctant to do so. Things such as the wait those numbers would cause in the expo for number collection. But, another thing he said has me thinking. He said that it isn't as simple as just saying to the council and the gardai that they want to open it up to 30k participants. They'd have to prove they were able.

Presumably they would also have to prove the demand was there. Maybe the ballot is part of a wider plan to gauge interest with the possibility of expanding DCM?

I'm sure someone more experienced than me (not hard, ha) will know

I agree that id be adding to the problem, loads of people will do this. Then, itll be booked out by all the lotto winners that decide not to do it.

I never had a problem with how they did it previously and always bought a ticket in time. Surely its about money and not not getting backlash.

So its 90euro 1st wave now already??

Burkie1203 · 29-10-2019 3:28pm

TheW1zard wrote: »

I agree that id be adding to the problem, loads of people will do this. Then, itll be booked out by all the lotto winners that decide not to do it.

I never had a problem with how they did it previously and always bought a ticket in time. Surely its about money and not not getting backlash.

So its 90euro 1st wave now already??

Lottery winners get a deadline to pay and if they don't then next in line gets an entry.

Iscreamkone · 29-10-2019 3:28pm

buy 2 tickets for the lottery?

Hurrache · 29-10-2019 3:33pm

bucketybuck wrote: »

If DCM needs real stats and figures to justify expansion then having X amount of entries to a lottery is one way to do it.

Maybe, but the fact that it sells out so quickly and a high demand for numbers afterwards is pretty evident in itself. They'll also have a record of hits on their entry site too.

Trampas · 29-10-2019 3:35pm

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

I think a lot of people here need to stop throwing toys out of the pram. You may have entered the lotteries for London or another major, but hundreds of thousands of people enter them, so the chances of getting a place are quite small..

That will not be the case here...

And maybe giving more places to charities and turning it into more of a fundraising thing is a great thing. If 15k people raised an average of 300 quid each [only] thats 4.5 million quid for charities around the place. I've done the Ring of Kerry cycle twice, and had to get entry via a charity both times. That cash is one of the huge sources of funding for some charities around Munster.

[Asked above, London GFA - can be any old Joe Soap, only need to prove the time and prove the uk residency. For Boston you can be from anywhere. But if you get in via GFA these days, you cannot defer entry. Run it that year or tough **** - as I would think there was *LOADS* of folks using a time [since your GFA time is only valid for 2 years] and pushing it out.

Charity route is just garbage excuse. Do you think people want to keep asking friends and family for money to run a race every year.

They should be made clear where the places are going. 15000k to lottery. 5k to aai. 1k to kbc or whatever.

Turning into another typical event that when it gets big it forgets it’s loyalty. Like turning the Celtic tiger customer service died a death

bucketybuck · 29-10-2019 3:40pm

Hurrache wrote: »

Maybe, but the fact that it sells out so quickly and a high demand for numbers afterwards is pretty evident in itself. They'll also have a record of hits on their entry site too.

Sure, but self evident might not be enough if some councillor is demanding definite facts and figures. High demand is a vague term and hits on a website mean very little, even a waiting list will be full of people who just put their name down for the hell of it and won't follow through, I know that one from experience.

By far the best way to gauge serious interest is to get people to put their money where their mouth is, and paying to enter the lottery does that.

If that is the real reason of course, I hope it is, because the other claims don't hold water.

6run28 · 29-10-2019 3:46pm

Also there doesnt seem to be a contingency if lottery is undersold ? Less than 20k of places were sold by end of November last year when lottery applications close this year

solidasarock · 29-10-2019 4:33pm

6run28 wrote: »

Also there doesnt seem to be a contingency if lottery is undersold ? Less than 20k of places were sold by end of November last year when lottery applications close this year

I would guess less then the total 22k will be available for the November lottery. They will "sell out"

Its like Ticketmaster works now for major concerts. You only make a percentage of places actually available day 1 to general public so you can make the real money selling tickets at a mark up price via other channels. Then you slowly trickle out more tickets to spike demand now and again leading up to the big day which again will push the unlucky people to look elsewhere to get their spot.

PhilOssophy · 29-10-2019 4:36pm

They are going about this all wrong.
There was 5k no-shows, either people who thought it was a good idea at the time, or who didn't realise how far it was, etc.
They should look at a system of transfers, right up to a few weeks before the event. If somebody gets injured on their 20 mile run they should be able to transfer their entry if they can.
Also, they should charge the full amount if you are successful in the ballot, no questions asked. Stop people entering for the sake of it. They are only adding to the admin issues

dublin runner · 29-10-2019 4:45pm

Whatever about the merits of the lottery system, communication has been poor and shortsighted.

I am not a fan of the lottery system with that said, the 'first come, first served' worked well. Dublin is not London. Dublin took many weeks to sell out, with plenty of notice. The public backlash to it selling out was unwarranted in 2019, especially as they drastically improved their message - particularly on social media - significantly. Lesson learned.

I am a fan of the 'Good for Age' concept, especially aligning it with club membership. Unfortunately, in my view, the communication of this - especially detail and workings - was very poorly thought out and mishandled.

Good for Age
-Not announcing this prior to DCM was a questionable decision. This should have been declared well in advance of the 2019 edition. What are the times? No one knows. Athletes should have been informed of the times necessary to guarantee qualification for 2020.
-Are Age Category winners guaranteed a ticket?

In an information vacuum, people rightfully get annoyed. The GFA aspect, in particular, asks more questions than it answers. The release of the information leaves much to be desired.

I hope I am wrong but I suspect it is more concerned with monetising the event further (nothing wrong with that in theory), or a poor attempt as garnering extra publicity and therefore, increase demand. The increase in entry fee supports this argument.

RacoonQueen · 29-10-2019 4:48pm

Lottery seems pointless given the entry doesn't sell out for a couple of weeks still, if they moved it back to the Monday, it would take months to sell out.

What bothers me is this GFA entry for club runners rubbish. There should NOT be any barrier to entry to a championship event to championship runners, no matter what their ability is. To introduce this here is yet another barrier for the slower club members to think they are not good enough, as many already think when it comes to track/XC running and they won't take it up then because of that.
Not happy with any change that affects club runners ability to take part in a championship race, there is a very small % of entrants that are club runners as it is and sure if you end up with 50% of runners in the marathon being club runners because people join clubs so they can get an entry, so be it, that would be a fricken huge financial benefit to athletics clubs in Ireland, it would easily be avoided anyway by letting clubs do the championship entries so they only enter long term or active members rather than ones who only join to get the champ entry.

jonnbinn · 29-10-2019 4:51pm

Think people are being pretty unfair here in their criticism of the organisers claiming that it's just done for the money etc. The same people have been involved in organising the marathon for years now, taking it from the hard times with no sponsors to building it up year on year to the fantastic event it has become ove the last few years.

It must be an absolutely monumental task organising a marathon, and if this is being done with a view to raising the cap on entrys (as it seems to be from what i have read) then whats the problem with that? Bigger events lead to bigger sponsership deals and you can't run events of this size without sponsers. So maybe cut them some slack and trust that they are doing it for the right reasons.

andrew1977 · 29-10-2019 4:54pm

Page 37 of the marathon race programme I received in my good bag advertises “register early and secure your place “ for 2020 race .

Baffling carry on .

RacoonQueen · 29-10-2019 4:55pm

nannerby wrote: »

I don't think that counts in the marathon champs.

KSU wrote: »

It does unless there is prior approval from the

RD.

Seems the rule has changed. Previously the marathon was specifically excluded from requirement of wearing club singlet, AI rulebook now states

Marathon Championships

Athlete must wear club singlet alternatives permitted in certain circumstances with permission of meet manager / director on application with entry.

PaulieC · 29-10-2019 4:56pm

jonnbinn wrote: »

Think people are being pretty unfair here in their criticism of the organisers claiming that it's just done for the money etc. The same people have been involved in organising the marathon for years now, taking it from the hard times with no sponsors to building it up year on year to the fantastic event it has become ove the last few years.

It must be an absolutely monumental task organising a marathon, and if this is being done with a view to raising the cap on entrys (as it seems to be from what i have read) then whats the problem with that? Bigger events lead to bigger sponsership deals and you can't run events of this size without sponsers. So maybe cut them some slack and trust that they are doing it for the right reasons.

That's all very well and reasonable but one thing about the new system is that the graduated pricing has gone and now you will not be able to enter for less than 93 euros. If it wasn't a money grab, why not just reduce the price to everyone so everyone pays the same amount and everyone has an equal chance of getting in ?

peter kern · 29-10-2019 4:59pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

They are going about this all wrong.
There was 5k no-shows, either people who thought it was a good idea at the time, or who didn't realise how far it was, etc.
They should look at a system of transfers, right up to a few weeks before the event. If somebody gets injured on their 20 mile run they should be able to transfer their entry if they can.
Also, they should charge the full amount if you are successful in the ballot, no questions asked. Stop people entering for the sake of it. They are only adding to the admin issues

20% is the number every race calculates as no shows so the issue is all that use this number off 5000 have not the slightest idea how this works.

but I totally agree those days its so simple to change names and let the people deal how to pay for the entrance .

its interesting they get way with a 27% price increase for many entries and hardly anybody complains. Masterpiece i have to say .

nannerby · 29-10-2019 5:01pm

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Seems the rule has changed. Previously the marathon was specifically excluded from requirement of wearing club singlet, AI rulebook now states

Marathon Championships

Athlete must wear club singlet alternatives permitted in certain circumstances with permission of meet manager / director on application with entry.

Yes I didn't realise it had been changed its been some years since I ran it.

Dublin Marathon moves to lottery entries!

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