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Dublin Marathon moves to lottery entries!

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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,447 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    skyblue46 wrote: »
    But...but...but...the times! If DCM is still the Nationals it's now an elitist event.

    Another question, not specific to Dublin. In following many sports I regularly see a figure of 10/11% accepted as an approximate difference between the sexes. Why do GFA not reflect this?

    Because London GFA is based on demand for London entries, not actual reality in terms of performance.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,447 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    skyblue46 wrote: »
    I admire your calm. Haha. I have no intention of running it but still find myself getting upset.

    Don’t get me wrong. Everything I’ve seen Dublin Marathon announce today looks stupid. Talk about wrecking the positive buzz from the most successful event ever, in many ways.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,365 Mod ✭✭✭✭RacoonQueen


    Vinnie222 wrote: »
    There will be 2 lottos.... Further to the recent announcement by KBC Dublin Marathon there are some points to note for AAI athletes.

    · Athletes can enter the KBC Dublin marathon lottery system from November the 1st to register their interest in the 2020 marathon.

    · A SMS will be sent to you the week of January 3rd if you have been accepted into the 2020 KBC Dublin Marathon. Prior to this date you must be registered with Athletics Ireland for the 2020 calendar.

    In addition to the lottery system opening on the 1st of November. KBC Dublin Marathon will also have an exclusive AAI member lottery in April. To enter this lottery AAI members must have reached a good of age standard (see attached) in a previous recognised marathon. All athletes registered members of their club to enter the AAI members lottery.

    1st part of the email.

    So when does the club runner have to have run the time? I haven't run a marathon for a number of years, but with some long runs I could easily go sub 3:45

    How does a first timer get in to the national champs? A member of my club ran 2:18 in Frankfurt at the weekend on his debut, but he seemingly wouldn't have been allowed run Dublin as a debut via the championship as he wouldn't have had a GFA time.
    They'd have to add half marathon times to the GFA qualifying times to get around something like this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,807 ✭✭✭skyblue46


    Murph_D wrote: »
    Because London GFA is based on demand for London entries, not actual reality in terms of performance.

    So they decide it's 5000 male and female will get into GFA and 10,000 women apply and 30,000 men. Effectively you have to be in the top half of the female entries and the top 17% of male based on performance? (Figures only used as an example)


  • Registered Users Posts: 334 ✭✭solidasarock


    I wonder if another race can come in and take over as the National marathon and save the day for the local athletics scene Mr Aughney is tossing overboard.

    If the Rock and Roll group added a full marathon it would just be clown shoes. Their Dublin HM's feel slapped together in recent years. Plus lets say they move their dates and do a marathon on the August Bank Holiday. Its still August. It will be roasting.

    Cork is probably the best existing alternative we have but its also a scorcher and its in Cork. Which is all the way down in Cork!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,807 ✭✭✭skyblue46


    So when does the club runner have to have run the time? I haven't run a marathon for a number of years, but with some long runs I could easily go sub 3:45

    How does a first timer get in to the national champs? A member of my club ran 2:18 in Frankfurt at the weekend on his debut, but he seemingly wouldn't have been allowed run Dublin as a debut via the championship as he wouldn't have had a GFA time.
    They'd have to add half marathon times to the GFA qualifying times to get around something like this.

    There are a couple of decent club runners from here who were bitten by the marathon bug at the weekend...looks like it's lottery for them!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,550 ✭✭✭chinguetti


    Those times are also on the Runners Support Page by the way and they look a bit unrealistic.

    I have to say that looking at the reaction on here, Facebook, Twitter etc, its been way over the top. DCM got attacked when it sold out last year, again when the number swap got way over subscribed & the system crashed. Whatever they would do, they couldn't win today.

    Some people seem to think they've a divine right to an entry and some of the abuse they've got is unfair. The amount of people saying that they'll refuse to enter Dublin will mean that they won't need a lottery system but then again, they'll be giving out again come January. And as someone not in a club, club members should get some benefits of entering the marathon.

    The poor person in DCM working on their social media today has my greatest sympathy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 362 ✭✭nannerby


    Have the AAI said anything about the Nat champs or do they even know?


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,365 Mod ✭✭✭✭RacoonQueen


    Cork is probably the best existing alternative we have but its also a scorcher and its in Cork. Which is all the way down in Cork!

    I suggested Cork on Twitter today. Lets not kid ourselves though, Athletics Ireland do not care. They don't care about any of the championship races, if they did, the National 10k would not have stayed lumped in with the Great Ireland Run all those years and the national half wouldn't be the f*cking joke of a race it is tied to that made the GIR look good.
    nannerby wrote: »
    Have the AAI said anything about the Nat champs or do they even know?

    They don't care.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,447 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    skyblue46 wrote: »
    So they decide it's 5000 male and female will get into GFA and 10,000 women apply and 30,000 men. Effectively you have to be in the top half of the female entries and the top 17% of male based on performance? (Figures only used as an example)

    Well it depends on the demand for each age category. Some may be more competitive (in terms of applicant numbers) than others. To be honest, I’m not that well up on London’s method - I do know that Boston and New York use age standards designed to ensure a representative spread across age and gender. I assume London has similar philosophy. London has harder standards simply because they reserve fewer entries for GFA. Boston has ‘easier’ standards because the vast majority of entries are reserved for GFA. Chicago (just entered today, so no Dublin for me anyway next year) has standards similar to Boston because it seems they have plenty of capacity and don’t need to be particularly restrictive. In my opinion AAI should base entry restrictions on actual results, not an arbitrary standard, especially one from a big commercial event with no relation to actual reality in Ireland.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 362 ✭✭nannerby


    Doesn't look like the AAI have any say in the entries so they should just run the Nat Champs somewhere else.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,447 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    nannerby wrote: »
    Doesn't look like the AAI have any say in the entries so they should just run the Nat Champs somewhere else.

    Well to be fair, as Adrian suggested earlier, there is lots of “more information required” before anyone rushes to judgment.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 610 ✭✭✭kerrylad1


    chinguetti wrote: »
    Those times are also on the Runners Support Page by the way and they look a bit unrealistic.

    I have to say that looking at the reaction on here, Facebook, Twitter etc, its been way over the top. DCM got attacked when it sold out last year, again when the number swap got way over subscribed & the system crashed. Whatever they would do, they couldn't win today.

    Some people seem to think they've a divine right to an entry and some of the abuse they've got is unfair. The amount of people saying that they'll refuse to enter Dublin will mean that they won't need a lottery system but then again, they'll be giving out again come January. And as someone not in a club, club members should get some benefits of entering the marathon.

    The poor person in DCM working on their social media today has my greatest sympathy.
    Well I have run 6 from the last 7 Marathon's.
    I have a GFA m45 time.
    I'm not in a club.
    So I will end up in the lottery.
    So you think the likes of me,are over reacting?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,649 ✭✭✭rovers_runner


    I suggested Cork on Twitter today. Lets not kid ourselves though, Athletics Ireland do not care. They don't care about any of the championship races, if they did, the National 10k would not have stayed lumped in with the Great Ireland Run all those years and the national half wouldn't be the f*cking joke of a race it is tied to that made the GIR look good.



    They don't care.


    Longford marathon at the end of August would be the right choice, also AIMS affiliated.


  • Registered Users Posts: 799 ✭✭✭SeeMoreBut


    If the stuff been said is right then it’s like they are making this up as they go along.

    A big sellout and they’ve lost the plot. It’s like they think it’s a major marathon.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,851 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    Longford marathon at the end of August would be the right choice, also AIMS affiliated.

    A lonely marathon that


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,649 ✭✭✭rovers_runner


    chinguetti wrote: »
    Those times are also on the Runners Support Page by the way and they look a bit unrealistic.

    I have to say that looking at the reaction on here, Facebook, Twitter etc, its been way over the top. DCM got attacked when it sold out last year, again when the number swap got way over subscribed & the system crashed. Whatever they would do, they couldn't win today.

    Some people seem to think they've a divine right to an entry and some of the abuse they've got is unfair. The amount of people saying that they'll refuse to enter Dublin will mean that they won't need a lottery system but then again, they'll be giving out again come January. And as someone not in a club, club members should get some benefits of entering the marathon.

    The poor person in DCM working on their social media today has my greatest sympathy.

    Four easy steps:
    1. Sell all entries first come first served for 90 euro as they wanted to increase price to cover costs.
    2. When over subscribed open a waiting list
    3. Allow anyone with an entry access to a Web portal to cancel entry up until September 2020 (date close to race)
    4. Inform members of waiting list as cancellations of entries arise.


    This decision was a combination of greed and ego, they wanted to make themselves look important and forgot that only 6 years ago the whole thing nearly went up in flames..


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,851 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    There is a gap in the market if all is true. A few promoters could be all over this, West dublin a possible location


  • Registered Users Posts: 334 ✭✭solidasarock


    Four easy steps:
    1. Sell all entries first come first served for 90 euro as they wanted to increase price to cover costs.
    2. When over subscribed open a waiting list
    3. Allow anyone with an entry access to a Web portal to cancel entry up until September 2020 (date close to race)
    4. Inform members of waiting list as cancellations of entries arise.


    This decision was a combination of greed and ego, they wanted to make themselves look important and forgot that only 6 years ago the whole thing nearly went up in flames..

    Are you suggesting a sporting organization in Ireland lost its seances at the first sign of money and is willing to sell out local athletes at the first sign of quick cash?


    Such a thing would never happen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,550 ✭✭✭chinguetti


    kerrylad1 wrote: »
    Well I have run 6 from the last 7 Marathon's.
    I have a GFA m45 time.
    I'm not in a club.
    So I will end up in the lottery.
    So you think the likes of me,are over reacting?

    I didn't name anyone as overreacting but some of the stuff I've read on a number of fora is OTT. I don't have a GFA time and I'm not in a club so you've a better chance than me of getting a place if the information we have is correct but we don't know and won't know for a while yet.

    I've entered London for the last 7 years and haven't got in and each year I'm miffed but there's bigger things to get upset about in life i find. Whatever DCM did today, they couldn't win as they would get anger from clubs, runners, charities, locals looking for exemptions etc.

    There's on a hiding to nothing and the marathon isn't greatly loved in Dublin by non sporting people. How do I know this? I worked on the roads on traffic duty for 3 years and stopped doing it as the abuse I got every year was too much. I even had a soldier in the Aras report me to his boss, the President, when I wouldn't let him drive down against runners one year.

    Also if Dublin city wanted a fast marathon in the city, the authorities could give them the streets but see the marathon as an imposition and not as an opportunity in my mind. I've read today they want to put the start/finish area in the Phoenix Park and if they do that, no one will be able to get to it or more importantly home from it. Just look at Rock and Roll and the mess it is.


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,365 Mod ✭✭✭✭RacoonQueen


    A lonely marathon that

    Do a big drive for club runners for a national championship event + the numbers that already do it. Probably a faster course than Dublin and before XC season kicks off, 5 weeks or so recovery before the novice races, it's actually bloody perfect.
    You wouldn't have the course lined with support or the same party atmosphere which is what would be the drawbacks and would stop many of the slower runners competing. Longford should use this to push their race though - this could be a huge opportunity for them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,584 ✭✭✭ligerdub


    mloc123 wrote: »
    This is a strange decision? I know the race is popular now... but it sells out in weeks, not hours.

    You're right, but the

    2019 edition sold out 22,500 spots in about 40 days,
    2018 edition sold out 20,000 spots by May
    2017 edition sold out 20,000 spots by July
    2016 edition sold out 17,500 spots by August

    2016 was the first time the DCM ever sold out. There were "just" 13,000 for 2015. The trend of interest and rate of sales has changed dramatically. There's no way we could say with certainty that it would take still take 40 days to fill out the allocation when it would seem likely that it would sell out in quicker time. Having said that the capacity issue is perhaps a debatable one, especially when considering that they capped entries at 17,500 just 3 years ago but could allocate an extra 5,000 people on exactly the same route this year. I think it really depends on how many people are entered at particular standards, because I could see the volume of people was high for pretty much the entirety after the initial elite 500 or so runners passed me by where I was spectating at around 9 miles in (and that's with 20 minute differences between waves). It wasn't uncomfortable by any means but I'm sure they would like to at least try and manage that flow of people properly.

    To be fair to the organisers I'm sure they have push-back on capacity from an organisational point of view. I would think that if it were up to them they would gladly have 30,000 people do it and make it as significant event as possible. Number collection and managing people at entry and exit points aren't really the huge issues put forward, people will queue for a number if they have to, it's not really a huge deal. There were a few thousand people who couldn't get tickets in July, and perhaps quite a few who didn't bother trying but would have entered had there been general entry spots still available in say April, May.

    People say it's not London, Paris, Berlin or New York and never will be.....but that's defeatist thinking. There's more to an event that the location, and from an organisational point of view as well as an enjoyment factor perhaps Dublin stands out as a positive one. Not everyone is keen on running in a free for all 50,000 people event just because it's a major. In any event they have to do something to ensure fairness where possible, and are faced with an over-subscription problem to a reasonable degree at the moment, and have been dealing with many complaints about sites crashing and the likes. This sort of process might curtail that to a point. The over-subscription issue might only be slight, but with that in mind the chances of actually getting a number is pretty good.

    I'd be curious to see how this lottery splits out the entrants. I know they've been very keen on getting the split of women as a total % of entrants up so I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up something like 50:50, even though the number of applicants would be heavily skewed towards men. I'd hope they would not have any form of bias in that regard and let them allocate at random.

    Similarly I'd be curious to see how they split out the nationalities. The move to Sunday has obviously had a positive impact in getting more international entries, and maybe that trend has continued as word of mouth increases (a guess on my part), so I'm wondering if they are placing quotas on nationalities as a help for those applying from Ireland, or if they are trying to ensure they get a minimum number of entrants from an international market (more money coming into the city and all that jazz).

    There's a lot of complaint about how loyal entrants are being forgotten, but if they were to guarantee spots to those who completed the most recent one or say 2 or more of the last 5, then you'd probably fill up a decent weight of the entire allocation. It would make it much more difficult for those who have only just got to the age where they might consider it to enter for the first time. Repeat runners would hold the spaces in perpetuity for years, that wouldn't seem all that fair.

    Personally I think they could incentivise involvement in their race series by some sort of points system for those entering other lead-up events. It might not necessarily guarantee an entry but perhaps it makes the odds that bit better.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,851 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    Do a big drive for club runners for a national championship event + the numbers that already do it. Probably a faster course than Dublin and before XC season kicks off, 5 weeks or so recovery before the novice races, it's actually bloody perfect.
    You wouldn't have the course lined with support or the same party atmosphere which is what would be the drawbacks and would stop many of the slower runners competing. Longford should use this to push their race though - this could be a huge opportunity for them.


    Except it means training during holiday season for alot.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,365 Mod ✭✭✭✭RacoonQueen


    ligerdub wrote: »
    You're right, but the

    2019 edition sold out 22,500 spots in about 40 days,
    2018 edition sold out 20,000 spots by May
    2017 edition sold out 20,000 spots by July
    2016 edition sold out 17,500 spots by August

    Moving it to Sunday, probably the main reason for rise in popularity.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,584 ✭✭✭ligerdub


    Moving it to Sunday, probably the main reason for rise in popularity.

    Yes, but they are still selling out quicker. All the events since 2016 inclusive have been held on a Sunday. The numbers have increased by almost a third in 3 years and are selling out about 10 times faster. That might be panic buying, or just forcing the hand of those who were going to sign up anyway, but it's still significant.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,807 ✭✭✭skyblue46


    Personally I have no difficulty with the ballot entry. Call it future proofing. They really don't want to be changing the entry system annually. If they have acted to soon it's no big issue as everyone will get in anyway.

    My gripes...a)the abolition of the cheaper entries hidden in the lottery announcement and b) it is now not a suitable event as a national championship to cater for all ages and grades.


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 16,116 Mod ✭✭✭✭adrian522


    My understanding is that you can enter the championships if you get a place via the lottery, even if you dont have the GFA times.

    The GFA times are up.on the website now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,807 ✭✭✭skyblue46


    adrian522 wrote: »
    My understanding is that you can enter the championships if you get a place via the lottery, even if you dont have the GFA times.

    The GFA times are up.on the website now.

    The GFA times would eliminate 3/4s of most club memberships if they are as previously posted here. What's the website! A lottery to take part in a Nationals is bull**** pure and simple. So many take pride in running in their club vests in a Nationals. I read Murphs race report in which he mentioned the respect for the Raheny vest...lots of those runners would be excluded


  • Registered Users Posts: 126 ✭✭kyomi


    I agree with previous posters saying it's a solution in search of a problem. It would be a pity to base a major change like this on a one-off incident like the site crashing when the extra entries were released in July. Let's not forget that a lot of those complaining at that time could easily have got a spot if they'd signed up the previous November.

    If the organisers are worried about the fairness of the entry system, there are two obvious low-hanging fruits to go for before changing the whole system so drastically: 1) get a better website that won't crash when entries are released, and 2) allow transfers up to September, which is when a lot of people drop out due to injury. Implementing those two changes first might give a better idea, based on numbers rather than people shouting on the internet, of whether the current system is fit for purpose.


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,365 Mod ✭✭✭✭RacoonQueen


    skyblue46 wrote: »
    The GFA times would eliminate 3/4s of most club memberships if they are as previously posted here. What's the website! A lottery to take part in a Nationals is bull**** pure and simple. So many take pride in running in their club vests in a Nationals. I read Murphs race report in which he mentioned the respect for the Raheny vest...lots of those runners would be excluded

    They are the same as is posted earlier, this is last years team results
    https://www.athleticsireland.ie/downloads/eshop/Team_Results_Published_01112018.pdf

    and overall championship where 19 women under 35 make the cut. Bull****.
    https://www.athleticsireland.ie/downloads/eshop/Age_Category_Results_Published_01112018.pdf

    Screenshot-2019-10-29-at-22-15-46.png
    Screenshot-2019-10-29-at-22-25-05.png


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