ESB eCars pricing introduction

KCross · 26-10-2019 9:14am

unkel wrote: »

For some cars like all the Nissan Leafs, with their CHAdeMO charging, there would be no difference at all, still stuck at 43kW (2009). And they would not be able to charge at all at Tesla Superchargers or Ionity fast chargers as neither support that obsolete Japanese protocol.

You love a good anti Nissan rant!

this.lad · 26-10-2019 9:42am

unkel wrote: »

Tesla Model 3 (the best selling car in some European countries this year) can charge at up to 250kW at Tesla Supercharger 3 and at up to nearly 200kW at Ionity 350kW chargers (2019).

For some cars like all the Nissan Leafs, with their CHAdeMO charging, there would be no difference at all, still stuck at 43kW (2009). And they would not be able to charge at all at Tesla Superchargers or Ionity fast chargers as neither support that obsolete Japanese protocol.

But your ioniq etc., of which there are many is well catered for too.

In fairness they have a limited pot of money. Theres no point in meeting 25% of a future need now rather than the current need. Fot those using the M9, as i do myself, its better to have these than to have nothing, which was the case up to this week.

Surely a mixture of differing speed and capacity sites is the best approach? In any event, theres 2 chargers south of Naas now that will surely help drivers. The fact that its motorway access only, and soon to be paid for, should keep the pressure off and ensure some level of availability.

26-10-2019 9:47am

this.lad wrote: »

But your ioniq etc., of which there are many is well catered for too.

In fairness they have a limited pot of money. Theres no point in meeting 25% of a future need now rather than the current need. Fot those using the M9, as i do myself, its better to have these than to have nothing, which was the case up to this week.

Surely a mixture of differing speed and capacity sites is the best approach? In any event, theres 2 chargers south of Naas now that will surely help drivers. The fact that its motorway access only, and soon to be paid for, should keep the pressure off and ensure some level of availability.

I used the M9 charger myself this morning and it would definitely help me consider ditching the Rex in the i3 but in reality there'd need to be a significant upgrade to the network for me to consider this because it's when I go to the west that I realise the benefit of having the Rex but perhaps by next November things might be different, I might be able to have a lot more battery capacity which will definitely help and if I can get a car with 100 Kw charging this would be a real benefit, the only car like that will be the id.3 which I wish had a more powerful motor but anyway, I can keep the i3 another year if needs be.

There needs to be more than 1 DC charger in every single town in Ireland. Put the 50 Kw chargers in town and keep the 100+ Kw on the motorways.

More AC points will definitely help too.

Mancomb Seepgood · 26-10-2019 9:56am

Call me a filthy commie

but a large part of the EV fleet consists of used Nissan Leafs,1.0 and 1.5 gen and some provision needs to be available for them to charge in a reasonable time.

I agree that Nissan should have ditched Chademo for the new Leaf,at least in Europe.No skin in this myself since I have a Zoe with the unloved AC43 protocol,but if there is a mass rollout of 22kw chargers I'll be fine.

Mike9832 · 26-10-2019 10:00am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Better but still not like EV, still need to wait for the Auto Box and Revs.

Even my Brothers DSG seems like it takes forever to get going.

Thats cause your i3 is a genuinely quick car

1300kg/170bhp is quick, quicker than alot of yokes on the road

Drive a DSG Polo with 170bhp and it won't be slow, will do its manufacture rated 0-60 of 7 secs all day, just like an EV

From a roll the dsg will not be as quick initially, but will catch up quickly

26-10-2019 10:05am

Mike9832 wrote: »

Thats cause your i3 is a genuinely quick car

1300kg/170bhp is quick, quicker than alot of yokes on the road

Drive a DSG Polo with 170bhp and it won't be slow, will do its manufacture rated 0-60 of 7 secs all day, just like an EV

From a roll the dsg will not be as quick initially, but will catch up quickly

I'm not really talking about the acceleration, just the actual responsiveness , the DSG just doesn't have that compared to EV and especially when it wants to decide what gear to be in but it is far better now than when I had DSG back in 2006 but still, at roundabouts and junctions EV is far better but DSG is certainly better than manual.

Black_Knight · 26-10-2019 10:20am

Mancomb Seepgood wrote: »

Call me a filthy commie but a large part of the EV fleet consists of used Nissan Leafs,1.0 and 1.5 gen and some provision needs to be available for them to charge in a reasonable time.

I agree that Nissan should have ditched Chademo for the new Leaf,at least in Europe.No skin in this myself since I have a Zoe with the unloved AC43 protocol,but if there is a mass rollout of 22kw chargers I'll be fine.

Early gen leaf drivers who have been using the public network have likely been doing so because it was free, and until this year it probably wasn't as congested. No one who needs to regularly drive beyond their cars range would consider owning that car. Free charging kept old leafs doing these "out of range" drives for a few years too many. Now with fees, i'd suspect many will find a better tool for the job and sell up their leafs.

green123 · 26-10-2019 10:46am

unkel wrote: »

Indeed. I'll give you a rough guide so:

petrol car 15c/km
diesel car 10c/km
EV charged at home at night rate 1c/km
EV charged on paid ESB chargers 4c/km

Unkel why do you keep posting such misleading wrong information?

I had an argument with you before about night rate electricity where you were also posting misleading figures.

Are you deliberately posting misleading figures to skew the numbers in favour of electric vehicles?

Or are you really just not able to understand and work out the accurate numbers?

Round Cable · 26-10-2019 10:55am

Black_Knight wrote: »

Early gen leaf drivers who have been using the public network have likely been doing so because it was free, and until this year it probably wasn't as congested. No one who needs to regularly drive beyond their cars range would consider owning that car. Free charging kept old leafs doing these "out of range" drives for a few years too many. Now with fees, i'd suspect many will find a better tool for the job and sell up their leafs.

As a 24kwh Leaf owner, I wouldn't agree. I haven't used an ESB fast charger in 15 months, as the network was clogged with free loaders. Now that paid charging and multiple rapids are going to be installed at the same site, I plan on using my car for longer distance travel.

Black_Knight · 26-10-2019 11:10am

Round Cable wrote: »

As a 24kwh Leaf owner, I wouldn't agree. I haven't used an ESB fast charger in 15 months, as the network was clogged with free loaders. Now that paid charging and multiple rapids are going to be installed at the same site, I plan on using my car for longer distance travel.

So do you regularly drive outside your cars range, this relying on the public network?

Doesn't sound like you're the leaf (EV) driver type I'm talking about.

Don't hold your breath for those multiple fast charger stations either.

Silent Running · 26-10-2019 11:22am

A while ago, I arrived in my Ioniq at a rapid charger in Dublin where a Leaf was charging. I needed a charge to get back to Wexford, so had to wait. I got chatting to the Leaf owner who was happy to tell me that he's been charging for free for 5 years. I asked about his home charging costs. "Oh I don't have a charger at home" he said. I recognised him later in a photograph of the top table at an IEVOA meeting. Said it all for me.

A lot of freeloaders are in for an awakening.

Mancomb Seepgood · 26-10-2019 11:35am

Silent Running wrote: »

A while ago, I arrived in my Ioniq at a rapid charger in Dublin where a Leaf was charging. I needed a charge to get back to Wexford, so had to wait. I got chatting to the Leaf owner who was happy to tell me that he's been charging for free for 5 years. I asked about his home charging costs. "Oh I don't have a charger at home" he said. I recognised him later in a photograph of the top table at an IEVOA meeting. Said it all for me.

A lot of freeloaders are in for an awakening.

Yeah,those people exist.Some people seem to just treat it as part of their day,I can't even imagine how the savings justify it.Surely there are better things to do with your time?I can imagine making myself depend on public charging for five years, it's the stuff of nightmares!

26-10-2019 11:38am

Mancomb Seepgood wrote: »

Yeah,those people exist.Some people seem to just treat it as part of their day,I can't even imagine how the savings justify it.Surely there are better things to do with your time?I can imagine making myself depend on public charging for five years, it's the stuff of nightmares!

It's probably some kind of hobby for them, they will sit in their car writing crap on their phones saying how wonderful it is to charge for free and it gives them an extra buzz knowing the poor sod beside them waiting actually needs to use the charger to get home and the longer they make them wait the more of a buzz they get.

green123 · 26-10-2019 11:44am

knipex wrote: »

You have a nasty habit of pulling "estimates" that while wildly off just happen to support your argument and HATE being pulled on it.

your figures are so far from reality as to be blatant nonsense and misinformation disguised as informed approximates.

EV's are a good proposition in their own right, They don't need massaged figures to justify ownership.

.

Unkel - you should read this reply to your post again.

It really is nasty carry on posting ridiculous misleading figures.

i don't believe that you are doing this by mistake,
because this is not the first time i have seen you you do this, as i have said in my above post about night rate electricity.

You have no need to skew the numbers.

Post fair and accurate information.
Ev is still a great option even with the correct figures.

Round Cable · 26-10-2019 11:59am

Black_Knight wrote: »

So do you regularly drive outside your cars range, this relying on the public network?

Doesn't sound like you're the leaf (EV) driver type I'm talking about.

Don't hold your breath for those multiple fast charger stations either.

I haven't driven beyond the range of my Leaf in 15 months. Occasionally when I did drive beyond its capability, It had become a case of Russian rulette, will the next charger be free or indeed even working!

To be fair the Leaf is capable of 90% of my yearly driving, but we also have a petrol car though that is used little.

I think the first ESB multiple fast charger site in Ireland is opening soon, and they are promising hubs of between 4 to 8 chargers going forward. Although as ever, let's see if they come to fruition.

Mike9832 · 26-10-2019 12:04pm

green123 wrote: »

Unkel why do you keep posting such misleading wrong information?

I had an argument with you before about night rate electricity where you were also posting misleading figures.

Are you deliberately posting misleading figures to skew the numbers in favour of electric vehicles?

Or are you really just not able to understand and work out the accurate numbers?

They look off alight

Efficient

Diesel cars do 6l/100km @ 120km/h @ 1.30 a litre, €7.80/100km

= 7.8c/1km

Petrol 7.5l/100km @120 @1.40, €10.50/100km

=10.5c/1km

Electric cars do 20kWh/100km @120 @ night rate of 8c per kWh, €1.60/100km

= 1.6c/1km

Day rate @ 16c per kWh

= 3.2c/1km

On a long journey ( 520km) Cork - Dublin return

Diesel = €40.56

Electric mixture of night rate and chargers ( best selling EV Nissan Leaf)

Does 150km on night rate at cost of €2.40 and on those chargers needs 70kWh @ 33c = €23

Total cost €25.40 ( Nissan Leaf) vs diesel €40.56

God knows how many stops and how long it would take to charge Leaf on that 520km ( Cork - Dublin) journey

daheff · 26-10-2019 12:52pm

KCross wrote: »

As for PHEV's.... they shouldnt be on the rapids in the first place, imo, so thats a good thing.

My reading was this charge is going to be for all chargers, not just fast chargers?

KCross · 26-10-2019 12:55pm

daheff wrote: »

My reading was this charge is going to be for all chargers, not just fast chargers?

The recently announced pricing is for the current 50kW chargers only.

Charges for the 22kW and upcoming 150kW chargers has not been announced yet so the 22kW chargers will remain free until some time next year.

unkel · 26-10-2019 1:41pm

green123 wrote: »

Unkel why do you keep posting such misleading wrong information?

I had an argument with you before about night rate electricity where you were also posting misleading figures.

Are you deliberately posting misleading figures to skew the numbers in favour of electric vehicles?

Or are you really just not able to understand and work out the accurate numbers?

Oh for Christ sake, not that again. I gave a man a quick rule of thumb overview because he asked for it. Rough figures, without doing any calculations, for all vehicles on the road today. Not just the latest and greatest most economical diesels and petrol you can buy new today

When that attracted criticism from people that seem to want to compare EVs to modern frugal petrol / diesel cars, I came up with a new set of figures, I don't think those figures were disputed

Please read a thread in its entirety before resorting to personal attacks in future

BTW, apart from my EV, I own 2 petrol cars that cost about 20-25c in petrol per km in fuel. My EV costs about 1c per km in fuel. Or sometimes it is completely free when I charge it from my solar panels.

Black_Knight · 26-10-2019 4:27pm

Unkel, I can only apologise for asking for a rough guide to what diesel and petrol cost per km. The slating unkel gets for a few rough figures in posts Vs the wealth of knowledge he brings to the forum is rediculous. The forum and it's members would be a worse place without him.

Fwiw, my old diesel did 8.7 cent per km the year I sold it and moved to EV. I've been noting my fuel for the last 10 years so I'm not inventing my stats.

KCross · 26-10-2019 4:42pm

There is enough negativity around EVs that we need to be accurate with our figures otherwise it will come across as bias... that’s all it is.

Black_Knight · 26-10-2019 4:51pm

KCross wrote: »

There is enough negativity around EVs that we need to be accurate with our figures otherwise it will come across as bias... that’s all it is.

To be fair, the figures we're taking about are based on a broad range of makes/models and fuel of cars. And makes/models of fridges (think that was the bone of contention in the other thread). The figures range is going to be broad. Even the cost of electricity is going to vary.

KCross · 26-10-2019 5:17pm

Black_Knight wrote: »

To be fair, the figures we're taking about are based on a broad range of makes/models and fuel of cars. And makes/models of fridges (think that was the bone of contention in the other thread). The figures range is going to be broad. Even the cost of electricity is going to vary.

For sure, just need to be specific when providing figures by showing how they were calculated otherwise the haters will just derail threads disputing the figures.

26-10-2019 5:31pm

Here's real figures for anyone who likes it.

lets go with a 55 Mpg diesel which averages 55 mpg per tank , no " on the Motorway" madness I hear all to often.

Right lets get down to it.

lets say over my distance per year of around 30,000 Kms.

55 mpg is 5.13 L/100 Km = 19.47 Km/Litre

19.47/30,000 = 1,540 litres of Diesel required @ 1.47 C/Litre ? = 2,263 Euros

Electric

Take a Nissan Leaf, my average as per car wings was about 18.5 Kwh/100 Km per year so we'll go with that.

18.5/100 = 5.40 or 5.40 Km per Kwh

30,000 Kms / 5.40 = 5,555 Kwh needed

So, Day rate electricity 16.5 C/100 Km Multiply by 5,555 Kwh = 916 Euro

Night Rate

7.4 Cent multiply by 5,555 Kwh = 411 Euros on Night rate.

Bear in mind, these calculations are based on the average and can go up or down based on consumption.

I got work charging so I would pay probably half that to drive 30,000 Kms a year including some Petrol in the Rex and the i3 is more efficient than the Leaf, Ioniq is more efficient again. etc.

Mike9832 · 26-10-2019 7:30pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Here's real figures for anyone who likes it.

lets go with a 55 Mpg diesel which averages 55 mpg per tank , no " on the Motorway" madness I hear all to often.

Right lets get down to it.

lets say over my distance per year of around 30,000 Kms.

55 mpg is 5.13 L/100 Km = 19.47 Km/Litre

19.47/30,000 = 1,540 litres of Diesel required @ 1.47 C/Litre ? = 2,263 Euros

Electric

Take a Nissan Leaf, my average as per car wings was about 18.5 Kwh/100 Km per year so we'll go with that.

18.5/100 = 5.40 or 5.40 Km per Kwh

30,000 Kms / 5.40 = 5,555 Kwh needed

So, Day rate electricity 16.5 C/100 Km Multiply by 5,555 Kwh = 916 Euro

Night Rate

7.4 Cent multiply by 5,555 Kwh = 411 Euros on Night rate.

Bear in mind, these calculations are based on the average and can go up or down based on consumption.

I got work charging so I would pay probably half that to drive 30,000 Kms a year including some Petrol in the Rex and the i3 is more efficient than the Leaf, Ioniq is more efficient again. etc.

Diesel @ 1.47 a litre?

I got it for 1.29 for today

U going to include these ESB new charge rates?

Or does everyone live a 100km radius from everything?

Any long trip and best selling EVs like Ioniq, Leaf etc need to charge at 150km or so

26-10-2019 7:40pm

Mike9832 wrote: »

Diesel @ 1.47 a litre?

I got it for 1.29 for today

U going to include these ESB new charge rates?

Or does everyone live a 100km radius from everything?

Any long trip and best selling EVs like Ioniq, Leaf etc need to charge at 150km or so

OK lets say for instance it costs 33 C/Kwh and someone only charges at a DC 50 Kw charger then the cost would be .............

5,555 Kwh x 33 cent = 1,833 Euros so that's cheaper than a person who would average 55 mpg "per tank"

Diesel costs go up and down like a yoyo.

Black_Knight · 26-10-2019 8:23pm

Mike9832 wrote: »

Diesel @ 1.47 a litre?

I got it for 1.29 for today

U going to include these ESB new charge rates?

Or does everyone live a 100km radius from everything?

Any long trip and best selling EVs like Ioniq, Leaf etc need to charge at 150km or so

Surely trolling given the last post

Mike9832 · 26-10-2019 8:29pm

Black_Knight wrote: »

Surely trolling given the last post

How so?

Black_Knight · 26-10-2019 8:47pm

Mike9832 wrote: »

How so?

Lad gives specifics about his real world scenario, after a post suggesting any example of saves should mention specific numbers, but you're calling him out on a whole plethora of numbers and scenarios that are not relevant to him.

I actually thought your post was mocking/pulling this piss out of the whole "be specific" post. Had a chuckle when I read it, then it seemed you were being serious.

Mike9832 · 26-10-2019 9:03pm

Black_Knight wrote: »

Lad gives specifics about his real world scenario, after a post suggesting any example of saves should mention specific numbers, but you're calling him out on a whole plethora of numbers and scenarios that are not relevant to him.

I actually thought your post was mocking/pulling this piss out of the whole "be specific" post. Had a chuckle when I read it, then it seemed you were being serious.

We in the esb charging thread

His figures on diesel wrong

1.47 litre

ESB eCars pricing introduction

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