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ESB eCars pricing introduction

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 7 Jupiter1


    Hi there, so how much will it cost to charge a leaf 30 kW to 80% from about 10% using public charge??
    How much will it cost at home using day rate with Energia?
    I drive 120 kW 2 days a week in leaf so probably won't cost too much charging at home?? I still use granny lead.
    Thanks


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    It's about time, I was happy to hear there will be charging for usage of the chargers.

    It won't effect me much because I charge at home/work 95% of my driving , and as a Rex user I'd rather pay for convenience, I don't care if I have to pay for Petrol for the times I can't rely on the Public charging network, chargers in use, Queues, broken etc , so , I won't mind at all a 30 something cent per Kwh charge if I can actually get to use the chargers.

    However, there is probably less incentive for me to use the DC Network now with the Rex and I use the AC Network more anyway considering I have 3 Phase 11 Kw charging, it makes a big difference and allows me significant charge by the time I do my business and I am happy to see more of an investment in AC.

    I heard of talk about a excess charge above 30 mins usage ? remember cold battery charging can take a lot longer and of course any Leafs with hot batteries.


  • Registered Users Posts: 64,668 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Jupiter1 wrote: »
    Hi there, so how much will it cost to charge a leaf 30 kW to 80% from about 10% using public charge??
    How much will it cost at home using day rate with Energia?
    I drive 120 kW 2 days a week in leaf so probably won't cost too much charging at home?? I still use granny lead.
    Thanks


    At the ESB it's about twice as expensive as charging at home during the day rate. And about four times as expensive as charging at home on the night rate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭jusmeig


    The eCar app seems to be gone? Replaced by EVPlugin. But this is all in pence!?


  • Moderators Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    Jupiter1 wrote: »
    Hi there, so how much will it cost to charge a leaf 30 kW to 80% from about 10% using public charge??
    How much will it cost at home using day rate with Energia?
    I drive 120 kW 2 days a week in leaf so probably won't cost too much charging at home?? I still use granny lead.
    Thanks
    That would be 21kW to go from 10%(3kW) to 80%(24kW). 21kW @ 33 cent is €6.93 at the public chargers. Home Day rate is half that as unkle says, night rate is half that again.


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  • Moderators Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    Some additional info on how ESB calculated the savings Vs diesel, and a mention of multiple ultra high speed chargers per station.
    https://esb.ie/tns/press-centre/2019/2019/10/23/esb-ecars-introduce-pricing-to-support-ev-network-expansion


  • Registered Users Posts: 7 Jupiter1


    Thanks lads for that feedback and pricing. So it might be worth looking into night rate?? Big price jump considering it was free for so long. I can see a lot of unhappy folks at public chargers. There will be no queues I say if people are paying. The other 22 kW chargers will be hard to get now as people will use those as still free.


  • Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,112 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    jusmeig wrote: »
    The eCar app seems to be gone? Replaced by EVPlugin. But this is all in pence!?

    The new ecar app isn't out yet, that app is for their chargers in the UK.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 417 ✭✭Mancomb Seepgood


    Driving a Zoe this is a mixed bag.As already mentioned there is likely to be increased demand on the 22kw network,however it may mean less likelihood of PHEVs or slower charging Evs on the AC43 plugs.Given we don't have access to the Ionity/easygo fast chargers that can only be a good thing.

    What would be a priority for me is ESB ensuring greater reliability on the AC side of their fast chargers,there seem to have been a lot of outages recently.Luckily I don't need to access the public chargers too often.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,377 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    I’m surprised it’s been free for so long tbh! A regular complaint I hear is selfish idiots parking their EVs in spots for most of the day hogging it on everyone else. Hopefully this might go some way to solving this


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,557 ✭✭✭creedp


    Zenith74 wrote: »
    I disagree. EVs are at a disadvantage because a diesel/petrol car can cause pollution and not pay the price, so a subsidy levels the playing field. Note that the EV subsidies are available to all who choose to use an EV, in the same way that the ICE pollution subsidy is available to those who choose to use an ICE.


    I think the massive duty on road fuel represents a significant contribution towards the true cost of burning the fuel. From that point of view, the burning of igreen diesel, home heating fuel, coal, etc that is much more heavily subsidised for those who choose to use them.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,189 Mod ✭✭✭✭charlieIRL


    road_high wrote: »
    I’m surprised it’s been free for so long tbh! A regular complaint I hear is selfish idiots parking their EVs in spots for most of the day hogging it on everyone else. Hopefully this might go some way to solving this

    They are hogging the slower chargers and I don’t think today’s announcement will change that


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,557 ✭✭✭creedp


    charlieIRL wrote: »
    They are hogging the slower chargers and I don’t think today’s announcement will change that

    Its increasingly difficult to get access to on street scp's in Dublin at possible due to BMW 530e being abandoned at them for extended periods. Many of the cars I come across are plugged in but not charging. I think many owners think once they plug in they don't have to pay for parking. A bit more aggressive enforcement of parking rules might help with this problem


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,781 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    kanuseeme wrote: »
    For me, it will cost me about 2 euro to charge to 80 % and with that I will save about 3.50,

    So for me to move 1 euro will not cut it, I will need 4, I prefer notes, but no change given sorry.

    I have modified my outlander already.

    I like it, you just have to hook up the coin slot to an auto disconnect!

    €2 is 6kWh at the new rapid prices, so does that mean your Outlander can do the same mileage on 6kWh as €5.50 of petrol?

    Petrol is about €1.45/l right now so that's about 3.8l. Mitsubishi quote around 50.4 mpg when the battery is depleted, which is 5.6l/100km. The 3.8l of petrol should give you around 67.85km of range. That gives the Outlander an electric only efficiency of 8.85kWh/100km.

    Mitsubishi really need to start selling their tech to other manufacturers, with efiicency like that they are putting the most efficent cars Ioniq (13.8kWh/100km) and Model 3 SR+ (14.3kWh/100km) to shame. Imagine if they put such amazing tech into an aerodynamically efficent body. They could probably get that down even further!


  • Registered Users Posts: 64,668 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    creedp wrote: »
    Its increasingly difficult to get access to on street scp's in Dublin at possible due to BMW 530e being abandoned at them for extended periods. Many of the cars I come across are plugged in but not charging. I think many owners think once they plug in they don't have to pay for parking. A bit more aggressive enforcement of parking rules might help with this problem

    Forget about it in Dublin. Don't even ever stress yourself out about trying to charge. Odds are heavily stacked against you being able to slow charge and that won't change any time soon.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,363 ✭✭✭McGiver


    sk8board wrote:
    For mass market adoption, there needs to be a financial reason to move. Today’s news moves that point further away.

    That's just not true. The incentive is there - charging at home.

    Important to point out, something I'm surprised we EV supporters don't educate the populace more about, that no other market in Europe has had a national network of free chargers. Few free chargers here yes, a comprehensive network organised by the state totalling 95%+ of all chargers in the country, absolutely not - forget it. Not even in the Norway!

    Electricity costs money. End of story. How can someone expect that it to be be free? Totally unrealistic expectation.

    Now, the incentive is a question of policy. Just copy Norway - carrot and stick - and it will work. The policy is relatively simple - no VRT, no VAT on EVs, VAT and pollution based VRT on ICE, no motor tax for EVs, pollution based motor tax for ICE. Plus ancillary policies like free parking etc.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,912 ✭✭✭Mike9832


    liamog wrote: »
    I like it, you just have to hook up the coin slot to an auto disconnect!

    €2 is 6kWh at the new rapid prices, so does that mean your Outlander can do the same mileage on 6kWh as €5.50 of petrol?

    Petrol is about €1.45/l right now so that's about 3.8l. Mitsubishi quote around 50.4 mpg when the battery is depleted, which is 5.6l/100km. The 3.8l of petrol should give you around 67.85km of range. That gives the Outlander an electric only efficiency of 8.85kWh/100km.

    Mitsubishi really need to start selling their tech to other manufacturers, with efiicency like that they are putting the most efficent cars Ioniq (13.8kWh/100km) and Model 3 SR+ (14.3kWh/100km) to shame. Imagine if they put such amazing tech into an aerodynamically efficent body. They could probably get that down even further!

    Its not just PHEV

    On a motorway not many EVs will be cheaper than diesel at 1.30

    Yokes like the Leaf are taking 22kWh+

    €7.26 with those charges for 100km

    Any decent diesel will match that

    Tanks like outlander cost like €3.50 to do 30km on those new chargers at motorway speed

    A 15 year old petrol Honda could manage similar

    Great thing with these charges is people will finally buy correct tools for the job.

    No 30kWh Leaf stopping every hour hogging free chargers, that hour cost €6.60 now


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,781 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    liamog wrote: »
    Petrol is about €1.45/l right now so that's about 3.8l. Mitsubishi quote around 50.4 mpg when the battery is depleted, which is 5.6l/100km. The 3.8l of petrol should give you around 67.85km of range. That gives the Outlander an electric only efficiency of 8.85kWh/100km.

    Appreciate I'm replying to my own post here, but those numbers just seemed too good to be true. Using the electric-only efficiency from ev-database.uk I figured it was worth calculating the real savings of eCars Fast charging versus petrol for Outlanders. Hope this helps you when making the choice between a wee top of the fuel tank

    Circumstance|Wh/mi|kWh/100km|km/€1 (eCars 33c/kWh)|km/€1 (eCars 29c/kWh)|km/€1 (petrol €1.45/l)
    City - Mild Weather|365|22.68|13.36|15.2|12.32
    Highway - Mild Weather|550|34.18|8.87|10.09|12.32
    Combined - Mild Weather|440|27.34|11.08|12.61|12.32
    City - Cold Weather|440|27.34|11.08|12.61|12.32
    Highway - Cold Weather|685|42.56|7.12|8.1|12.32
    Combined - Cold Weather|550|34.18|8.87|10.09|12.32


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,557 ✭✭✭creedp


    McGiver wrote: »
    That's just not true. The incentive is there - charging at home.

    Important to point out, something I'm surprised we EV supporters don't educate the populace more about, that no other market in Europe has had a national network of free chargers. Few free chargers here yes, a comprehensive network organised by the state totalling 95%+ of all chargers in the country, absolutely not - forget it. Not even in the Norway!

    Electricity costs money. End of story. How can someone expect that it to be be free? Totally unrealistic expectation.

    Now, the incentive is a question of policy. Just copy Norway - carrot and stick - and it will work. The policy is relatively simple - no VRT, no VAT on EVs, VAT and pollution based VRT on ICE, no motor tax for EVs, pollution based motor tax for ICE. Plus ancillary policies like free parking etc.

    In fairness every incentive whether it be free electricity or tolls or VRT or VAT has an opportunity cost.

    The State subsidising electricity for EVs is no different to exempting EV's from VRT. All subsidies reduce the States ability to fund other initiatives.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,781 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Mike9832 wrote: »
    Its not just PHEV

    eCars Fast Charging infrastructure is not intended for regular use. Slow charging at home/work etc 85-90% of the time is expected. Breaking even on the mid-journey fast charger seems fair to me, and matches most other European markets. For any journey, your first x km are done at approx 1/10th the ICE cost where x is the range of your car. Most of your usage is going to be within that x and will have 0 km at the same as the ICE cost.

    Imagine how much money you'd save if I gave you a fuel card that allowed you to pay 14.5c/l for the first 10l of fuel per day.

    The only market I see suffering here are the ones who cannot charge at home/work. You are correct, they will no longer see any fuel savings compared to a comparative ICE, which means they will not be able to offset the higher purchase price.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭kanuseeme


    liamog wrote: »
    I like it, you just have to hook up the coin slot to an auto disconnect!

    €2 is 6kWh at the new rapid prices, so does that mean your Outlander can do the same mileage on 6kWh as €5.50 of petrol?

    Petrol is about €1.45/l right now so that's about 3.8l. Mitsubishi quote around 50.4 mpg when the battery is depleted, which is 5.6l/100km. The 3.8l of petrol should give you around 67.85km of range. That gives the Outlander an electric only efficiency of 8.85kWh/100km.

    Mitsubishi really need to start selling their tech to other manufacturers, with efiicency like that they are putting the most efficent cars Ioniq (13.8kWh/100km) and Model 3 SR+ (14.3kWh/100km) to shame. Imagine if they put such amazing tech into an aerodynamically efficent body. They could probably get that down even further!


    i put a 81% charge at 35km range (charge will stop at 81% 23 minutes, start it again it stops around 94%, 25 minutes)

    mpg I used was 42 or 15 km/L so 35/15 = 2.3333 x 1.45 euro = 3.38 euro rounded up to 3,50, since I went to the bother of doing the modification, I want 4 euro minimum but I prefer notes and i said sorry no change given, so I am really hoping for 5 euro.

    I do not know how you got 5.50, i only wish for 67 km range on battery.

    I know you all get angry with phev's at rapids, but for me 25 minutes that I am doing nothing with, saves me 3.50. in a few weeks it will only be 1.50, but I am not going to complain.
    Can you say the same?

    As a one car family, I could not take the risk of going BEV, with a limited range and a 30 minute wait every 150km, and that being dependent on a network like ecars.

    I feel a rapid charging phev is an ideal car for me, and I do recommend them to others if it suits them.

    I see the " phev hate " here sometimes, some never miss a chance to pour scorn on phevs, usually its one liners but it comes from some of the most knowledgeable people on EVs, and your words are like gold a lot of the time.

    my 2 previous cars were hybrids and this present one, were bought on what I read about them on boards.ie, i needed to filter the info, but it was real information from real people.

    this last month 2 people pm'd me to ask me questions and I tried to help, with that in mind, I would ask to ease off on the snide remarks about a legitimate but fugly non-aerodynamic car


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,781 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    kanuseeme wrote: »
    i put a 81% charge at 35km range (charge will stop at 81% 23 minutes, start it again it stops around 94%, 25 minutes)

    mpg I used was 42 or 15 km/L so 35/15 = 2.3333 x 1.45 euro = 3.38 euro rounded up to 3,50, since I went to the bother of doing the modification, I want 4 euro minimum but I prefer notes and i said sorry no change given, so I am really hoping for 5 euro.

    I do not know how you got 5.50, i only wish for 67 km range on battery.

    When you said spending €2 would save you €3.50, I assumed you meant a saving of €3.50. I.E. would have spent €5.50 now only spending €2, therefore saving €3.50.

    What kind of electrical only consumption are you observing? When I modified the calculation to use 42 mpg instead of Mitsubishi's 50.4 mpg you get around 10.3km per €1 with petrol. For your mentioned 67 km and using the combined cycle gives you an actual saving of around €1.20 in mild weather, and you'll spend 14c more during cold weather.

    To be honest, I just like calculating things. I believe people should be equipped to make an informed decision.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,781 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Seems like a little bit of madness has descended on everyone.
    We have EV drivers insisting they'll sell their car because, they will now only be saving 15% compared to driving an ICE, and PHEV drivers insisting they will still use the network to save between 70c and €1.50 per 60km.
    Oh and Thierry with yet another excuse to not buy himself any EV.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭kanuseeme


    AVE. 20.5 kWh/100 km


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭kanuseeme


    over 2 months 20.5 kWh/100km


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,363 ✭✭✭McGiver


    creedp wrote:
    The State subsidising electricity for EVs is no different to exempting EV's from VRT. All subsidies reduce the States ability to fund other initiatives.

    In terms of effect on the budget you're right.

    Otherwise it is a very different subsidy. Tax incentives are totally common policy tools. Whereas provision of free electricity, water, gas or whatever isn't.

    The "free provision of electricity" policy is inherently flawed policy so I'm happy charging for charging is in the place.

    As I said, nowhere else it was done this way, it was silly idea today start with anyway and it has failed. Another failed idea is a grant paid to the dealer/manufacturer, should be immediately abolished and replaced with VAT reduction/exemption.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭jusmeig


    liamog wrote: »

    Mitsubishi really need to start selling their tech to other manufacturers, with efiicency like that they are putting the most efficent cars Ioniq (13.8kWh/100km) and Model 3 SR+ (14.3kWh/100km) to shame. Imagine if they put such amazing tech into an aerodynamically efficent body. They could probably get that down even further!

    Really, 8.85kWh/100km? At 10km per hour maybe. The thing is sharped like a bath with a shed on the back, and it's using lithium ion. How is it anywhere close to those figures on electric only?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭jusmeig


    kanuseeme wrote: »
    over 2 months 20.5 kWh/100km
    Ya that's more like it, it's a big heavy not aero car!


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,150 ✭✭✭sk8board


    Why does everyone forget that charging at home is almost free (by comparison)!?

    I had a similar setup to you. Did 10k km last year in my diesel. Cost me €890 for the year. Moved to electric and charging at home for those 10k km will cost me about €112 + a few times when I need to use public chargers. So I'm doing ~€750 a year on fuel alone. Tax and services are cheaper too, and tolls if I used them.

    I didn’t forget that charging at home costs far less - my point was about total cost of car ownership - the fuel cost is the smaller part in both our cases.
    Why would I need a €40k kona versus the €23k one, just to save up to €500 pa on fuel! ( and that’s assuming I use no public chargers, and also assumes I buy the €40k car for cash).

    My point was simply that anyone doing 10-15,000 km pa has no financial fuel-saving incentive, but still has the Massive EV car cost premium, meaning the total cost of ownership is higher, including any potential reduction in depreciation on the other end.


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  • Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,112 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    sk8board wrote: »
    I didn’t forget that charging at home costs far less - my point was about total cost of car ownership - the fuel cost is the smaller part in both our cases.
    Why would I need a €40k kona versus the €23k one, just to save up to €500 pa on fuel! ( and that’s assuming I use no public chargers, and also assumes I buy the €40k car for cash).

    My point was simply that anyone doing 10-15,000 km pa has no financial fuel-saving incentive, but still has the Massive EV car cost premium, meaning the total cost of ownership is higher, including any potential reduction in depreciation on the other end.

    I get what you're saying in terms of the price difference of the Kona models, which is a joke regardless of having to pay for rapid chargers or not but If you can only afford the 23k kona and not the 40k one and only do 10-15000km a year then buy a 2nd hand Ioniq EV and drive it practically for free compared to the diesel Kona that would have cost you the same up font but considerably more over the few years you have the car.


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