ESB eCars pricing introduction

peposhi

sk8board wrote: »

I didn’t forget that charging at home costs far less - my point was about total cost of car ownership - the fuel cost is the smaller part in both our cases.
Why would I need a €40k kona versus the €23k one, just to save up to €500 pa on fuel! ( and that’s assuming I use no public chargers, and also assumes I buy the €40k car for cash).

My point was simply that anyone doing 10-15,000 km pa has no financial fuel-saving incentive, but still has the Massive EV car cost premium, meaning the total cost of ownership is higher, including any potential reduction in depreciation on the other end.

ICE Kona prices start at €21500 and go up to €33000 for the top performance one that compare to the EV Kona... don’t see much of a difference here...
An eNiro 40kw is roughly €33k where a similarly specked automatic Scoda Octavia is more than €37k

Nermal

unkel wrote: »

About €3 in about 10 years time? Diesel about €5?

Closer to a 22c per litre increase in petrol from what I can see. Assuming the €6 per ton increase per year for the next decade.

liamog

peposhi wrote: »

ICE Kona prices start at €21500 and go up to €33000 for the top performance one that compare to the EV Kona... don’t see much of a difference here...
An eNiro 40kw is roughly €33k where a similarly specked automatic Scoda Octavia is more than €37k

It's a well-known fact that you are only allowed to compare an EV against the lowest spec least performant version of any ICE car. That way we can condemn manufacturers for not releasing low spec EVs.

Also, when a manufacturer releases a lower spec EV, we have to condemn the entire range, based on the underwhelming features of the entry-level version.

Jesus, peposhi you are making it really hard to stack the deck against any given EV.

peposhi

liamog wrote: »

It's a well-known fact that you are only allowed to compare an EV against the lowest spec least performant version of any ICE car. That way we can condemn manufacturers for not releasing low spec EVs.

Also, when a manufacturer releases a lower spec EV, we have to condemn the entire range, based on the underwhelming features of the entry-level version.

Jesus, peposhi you are making it really hard to stack the deck against any given EV.

It took me quite a lot of time to explain a colleague of mine that he has no grounds to compare his bog standard Dacia Sandero for €12k with any EV apart from the fact that both cars will bring you from A to B, liamog.

unkel

peposhi wrote: »

It took me quite a lot of time to explain a colleague of mine that he has no grounds to compare his bog standard Dacia Sandero for €12k with any EV apart from the fact that both cars will bring you from A to B, liamog.

Now if only we finally got that low range 20kWh Dacia Sandero EV for €16k that I've been banging on about, that would turn the tide for the low budget market.

peposhi

unkel wrote: »

Now if only we finally got that low range 20kWh Dacia Sandero EV for €16k that I've been banging on about, that would turn the tide for the low budget market.

Not yet 😬

First we need to get over the super expensive ESB charges:)

mickdw

I don't get what is deemed acceptable and what is not at public charge points.
I commented on here before how a leaf always seemed to be charging at a local street charge point. The general response here was that it was ok for him to plug in for the day and feck off.
Now it seems if I buy a 530e bmw, I'm the devil if I dare to plug it in to a public charger.
There seems to be an odd under current of snobbery in the EV community not based on the badge but based entirely on how fast you can pull in power from the public charger.
If people are going to be limited to 45 mins, does it matter how much power someone is taking on board in that time?

unkel

peposhi wrote: »

Not yet 😬

First we need to get over the super expensive ESB charges:)

Only a few negative idiots (at this stage it's probably fair to assign them the worst possible adjective: imbecile) are banging on about these new ESB charges. The majority of people already know they will buy an EV in the near future. It's up to us peposhi, to nudge people towards going EV. If we make even a little difference, we will have saved lives and we will have contributed towards slowing down climate change.

unkel

mickdw wrote: »

I don't get what is deemed acceptable and what is not at public charge points.
I commented on here before how a leaf always seemed to be charging at a local street charge point. The general response here was that it was ok for him to plug in for the day and feck off.
Now it seems if I buy a 530e bmw, I'm the devil if I dare to plug it in to a public charger.
There seems to be an odd under current of snobbery in the EV community not based on the badge but based entirely on how fast you can pull in power from the public charger.
If people are going to be limited to 45 mins, does it matter how much power someone is taking on board in that time?

Totally valid point. And the whole discussion about charging etiquette is just a complete waste of time. Charge wherever you want. Charges for charging should charge people for the resource they are using (holding up)

So - charge very little for slow chargers (maybe 20-30c/kWh), no time limit, and only a very soft overcharge limit of like €1 per hour

Charge a bit more for fast chargers (maybe the current 35c/kWh that's going to be in place for the ESB chargers soon) and also charge maybe 30c/minute while charging and €1 per minute over charge fee for every minute over 30 minutes

krissovo

mickdw wrote: »

If people are going to be limited to 45 mins, does it matter how much power someone is taking on board in that time?

It’s not snobbery per se but the fact people want to travel from A to B and its human nature to get the journey completed as quickly as possible so they can enjoy the reason for the trip. Now you in your PHEV have options to complete that journey without using a fast charger where as the BEV user does not. If you want to take the charger you are in your right to do so but you are potentially significantly increasing the travel time for a BEV owner for the sake of a euro or two. Heck on a long journey in one of my BEV’s I would happily pay the fuel difference to a PHEV owner if they were queued in front of me to let me charge quicker and save up to ~45 minutes on my journey.

The charging fee on fast chargers will make PHEV owners think twice about using a fast charger to effectively slow charge their car to get a extra 20 to 40 km’s “cheap” motoring opening up the charger for BEV drivers. It’s why the vast majority of owners welcome the fees, it will speed up all our journey times when we make the odd journey outside our normal commute.

Now if we had more than the token single fast charger and had a decent infrastructure on main routes we would be best of friends while we both charged our batteries to whatever level we wanted:D

slave1

So charging will cure queues at fast chargers? Passed by a Tesla supercharger setup today in Orlando, was full with not one car occupied and 3 model 3’s waiting for a charge

Black_Knight

peposhi wrote: »

ICE Kona prices start at €21500 and go up to €33000 for the top performance one that compare to the EV Kona... don’t see much of a difference here...
An eNiro 40kw is roughly €33k where a similarly specked automatic Scoda Octavia is more than €37k

Isn't the Kona EV pathetically spec'd here in Ireland? Kona is probably the worst case of overinflated EV though.

September1

Calahonda52 wrote: »

19th October what year?
2019 is gone, so maybe 2029

I meant 19th November this year, first day of charges - when EVs become more expensive to run then most ICE vehicles.

unkel wrote: »

I'd buy all of them at those prices

Please leave some for me.

unkel

slave1 wrote: »

So charging will cure queues at fast chargers? Passed by a Tesla supercharger setup today in Orlando, was full with not one car occupied and 3 model 3’s waiting for a charge

Then that supercharger needs to double in size. Tesla is still heavily investing in their supercharger network (from figures I read from their Q3 report), so no doubt it will get sorted

I also hear from some of the busiest superchargers in the Netherlands that are sometimes nearly fully occupied. Electrification is rapid now in the Netherlands though, Model 3 is the best selling car over there.

Lumen

Superchargers have substantial overstay fees, so it's unlikely the Teslas were sitting there fully charged.

Mike9832

kanuseeme wrote: »

A litre of petrol is €1.45 ATM, what will further increases in carbon tax make it?

Getting cars off the road should be the priority

Moving everyone to electric is just kicking the can

k123456

How do the ESB charges compare to Ionity using a Maingau card, please

Mickeroo

k123456 wrote: »

How do the ESB charges compare to Ionity using a Maingau card, please

They're 7 to 11c per kwh cheaper ain't they? Thought Maingau was 40c per kwh.

unkel

k123456 wrote: »

How do the ESB charges compare to Ionity using a Maingau card, please

ESB 33c/kWh (or 29c/kWh if you subscribe)
Ionity with Maingau 40c/kWh

Edit: corrected my figures

JohnC.

k123456 wrote: »

How do the ESB charges compare to Ionity using a Maingau card, please

Maingau 40c
ESB 33c or 29c in the €5 per month membership thing. But this is for 50kwh chargers. The 150kwh will be more, but not known yet.

Mickeroo

unkel wrote: »

ESB 35c/kWh
Ionity with Maingau 40c/kWh

ESB are 33c/kwh or 29c/kwh if you subscribe I thought?

We need a single way to pay and not have to register for cards etc, look at the disaster in the U.K, all the different ways to pay is a joke.

Black_Knight

Deleted User wrote: »

We need a single way to pay and not have to register for cards etc, look at the disaster in the U.K, all the different ways to pay is a joke.

Sure all you need is Ionity, Maingau, Esb, easyGo, and all the apps + more.

Black_Knight

Black_Knight wrote: »

Sure all you need is Ionity, Maingau, Esb, easyGo, and all the apps + more.

Have to admit I have no idea what Maingua is ?

They need to make this as easy as possible especially for those not tech savy.

kennethsmyth

unkel wrote: »

Only a few negative idiots (at this stage it's probably fair to assign them the worst possible adjective: imbecile) are banging on about these new ESB charges. The majority of people already know they will buy an EV in the near future. It's up to us peposhi, to nudge people towards going EV. If we make even a little difference, we will have saved lives and we will have contributed towards slowing down climate change.

For 50kw chargers that should be 45mins as 30mins is just not enough, and €1per min is a bit too far 50c per min.

kennethsmyth

Black_Knight wrote: »

Sure all you need is Ionity, Maingau, Esb, easyGo, and all the apps + more.

Agree, no apps if you dont want just card payment - this is now law (or becoming law) in uk

Black_Knight

Deleted User wrote: »

Have to admit I have no idea what Maingua is ?

They need to make this as easy as possible especially for those not tech savy.

The easy option is the ionity app. Maingau is a german electricity provider (as far as I know) who have an app/card which works with Ionity chargers. They charge per kWh (40c/kWh), unlike Ionity who charge a flat €8 fee. It's not trivial to sign up to them (lots of the process is in German, and putting in a postcode has proved to be difficult), but if you use ionity chargers with a smaller battery car (ioniq) they're better value.

Thread here

Black_Knight

kennethsmyth wrote: »

For 50kw chargers that should be 45mins as 30mins is just not enough, and €1per min is a bit too far 50c per min.

Thought the overstay fee was a once off €5 after 45 minutes

Mickeroo

An EV driver I know was giving out on Twitter saying the charges were to deter people from using the chargers so ESB wouldn't have to install anymore.

I'm not making this up.

Black_Knight

Black_Knight wrote: »

The easy option is the ionity app. Maingau is a german electricity provider (as far as I know) who have an app/card which works with Ionity chargers. They charge per kWh (40c/kWh), unlike Ionity who charge a flat €8 fee. It's not trivial to sign up to them (lots of the process is in German, and putting in a postcode has proved to be difficult), but if you use ionity chargers with a smaller battery car (ioniq) they're better value.

Thread here

My OH is German and German address is no problem Might be worth checking out though I use the DC chargers so infrequently it would hardly be worth the effort.

creedp

mickdw wrote: »

I don't get what is deemed acceptable and what is not at public charge points.
I commented on here before how a leaf always seemed to be charging at a local street charge point. The general response here was that it was ok for him to plug in for the day and feck off.
Now it seems if I buy a 530e bmw, I'm the devil if I dare to plug it in to a public charger.
There seems to be an odd under current of snobbery in the EV community not based on the badge but based entirely on how fast you can pull in power from the public charger.
If people are going to be limited to 45 mins, does it matter how much power someone is taking on board in that time?

I think that on street scp's should not be treated as 'destination chargers' for any category of EV. In any case many of the spaces are clearly marked for charging only. The amount of times I've turned up at an scp to find an EV/PHEV plugged in and not charging with no parking ticket to be seen. Just shows how many people don't even know the basics about public charging.

While I have an innate dislike of clampers I get a certain pleasure when I see non-charging EV clamped at on street scp's. My only gripe is that they are still blocking one of the most scarce resources available to man[kind] at present!!

Black_Knight

Mickeroo wrote: »

An EV driver I know was giving out on Twitter saying the charges were to deter people from using the chargers so ESB wouldn't have to install anymore.

I'm not making this up.

I can see their logic. Charge for charging, demand goes down on the current infrastructure, less pressure to add additional chargers.
I'd hope ESB are going to use the post fees usage statistics to determine which sites still have high usage and add additional chargers there.

Deleted User wrote: »

My OH is German and German address is no problem Might be worth checking out though I use the DC chargers so infrequently it would hardly be worth the effort.

Depends where you drive I guess. My trip home passes cashel where I need to charge anyways, so it was a no brainer for me.

Mickeroo

Black_Knight wrote: »

I can see their logic. Charge for charging, demand goes down on the current infrastructure, less pressure to add additional chargers.
I'd hope ESB are going to use the post fees usage statistics to determine which sites still have high usage and add additional chargers there.

That's fair but surely their goal is for the network to be profitable, I don't see how the current infrastructure would ever be profitable with the tiny fleet of EVs in the country at the moment.

rolion

kanuseeme wrote: »

A litre of petrol is €1.45 ATM, what will further increases in carbon tax make it?

unkel wrote: »

About €3 in about 10 years time? Diesel about €5?

Nermal wrote: »

Closer to a 22c per litre increase in petrol from what I can see. Assuming the €6 per ton increase per year for the next decade.

We are off topic here but the cost of the petrol will change not because of some carbon tax but mostly due to petro_dollar being slowly ands surely replaced by Euro.

Mickeroo

Mickeroo wrote: »

That's fair but surely their goal is for the network to be profitable, I don't see how the current infrastructure would ever be profitable with the tiny fleet of EVs in the country at the moment.

Tiny fleet for various reasons, Range is only getting acceptable to "some" cost of the 60 odd Kwh electrics is far too expensive for many People and there are far too few electric models to choose and infrastructure issues, no home charging for many People etc.

adunis

Sorry late to this party but

C4 cactus 1.6hdi 4.5l/100km so .45*1.35?=6 cent km

1.0 Octavia 5.8l/100km so .58*1.45?=8 cent km

Ioniq, 12.6kwh/100 so at home night rate is
12.6*8.8/100=.......One cent per km.

Esb public rate costs not that I care one jot cos I only ever use them for long journeys once in the blue moon.
3.odd or 5.odd per km.

Point to note above are long term average results for me personally in three super efficient examples of their kinds.

I would also consider the 1.0 Octavia style hatchback
The closest equivalent I could think of for an Ioniq volume,space,equipment wise all very similar.
An Ioniq is 30k,Octavia is 26.5k with manual box 28k? Auto.

charlieIRL

I tracked all my expenses using my ice for the last 3 years on an app on my phone. Every cent I spent on the car is itemised.
For diesel alone I was averaging €0.084 per km over 130,000kms
From my calculations, my EV will cost me €0.022 per km (night rate charging)

No brainier to switch to EV, even if I have to pay for a fast charge every now and then

unkel

charlieIRL wrote: »

From my calculations, my EV will cost me €0.022 per km (night rate charging)

That sounds very high. eGolf average consumption about 15kWh/100km? Night rate about 8c/kWh incl VAT? That means 15 * 0.08 / 100 = €0.012 per km

Saving over 130,000 km times (€0.084 - €0.012) is almost ten grand :eek:

I'd be paying around 2300 a year in Diesel , Now I pay probably less than 200 a year to drive 30,000 Kms or more, a no brainer indeed. I should add that I have work charging.

Silent Running

adunis wrote: »

Sorry late to this party but

C4 cactus 1.6hdi 4.5l/100km so .45*1.35?=6 cent km

1.0 Octavia 5.8l/100km so .58*1.45?=8 cent km

Ioniq, 12.6kwh/100 so at home night rate is
12.6*8.8/100=.......One cent per km.

Esb public rate costs not that I care one jot cos I only ever use them for long journeys once in the blue moon.
3.odd or 5.odd per km.

Point to note above are long term average results for me personally in three super efficient examples of their kinds.

I would also consider the 1.0 Octavia style hatchback
The closest equivalent I could think of for an Ioniq volume,space,equipment wise all very similar.
An Ioniq is 30k,Octavia is 26.5k with manual box 28k? Auto.

Maybe another consideration needs to be factored in. I've never driven a 1 litre Octavia, but I can't imagine it beating many cars off the line. Probably the same for the Cactus. If you drove either hard, what would their consumption figures look like?

The Ioniq can be driven hard without costing very much more, and it can leave most "premium" cars sitting at the traffic light drag strip. :P

Mupchease

unkel wrote: »

That sounds very high. eGolf average consumption about 15kWh/100km? Night rate about 8c/kWh incl VAT? That means 15 * 0.08 / 100 = €0.012 per km

Saving over 130,000 km times (€0.084 - €0.012) is almost ten grand :eek:

Just for some more data for people I do a fair bit of Motorway driving but my egolf exec is averaging 16.78kWh/100km for the year to September. 25k on the clock. I’d say that will rise too coming into the winter. Best I got for a month was back in July at 15.5kWh / 100km.

unkel

Mupchease wrote: »

Just for some more data for people I do a fair bit of Motorway driving but my egolf exec is averaging 16.78kWh/100km for the year to September. 25k on the clock. I’d say that will rise too coming into the winter. Best I got for a month was back in July at 15.5kWh / 100km.

Even if it is 18kW/h on average, it's still only 1.36c/km. Unless you grossly overpay for your night rate of course

creedp

Silent Running wrote: »

Maybe another consideration needs to be factored in. I've never driven a 1 litre Octavia, but I can't imagine it beating many cars off the line. Probably the same for the Cactus. If you drove either hard, what would their consumption figures look like?

The Ioniq can be driven hard without costing very much more, and it can leave most "premium" cars sitting at the traffic light drag strip. :P

The focus at the moment is on EVs beating ICEs off the line. However, looking fwd to the histrionics when EV drivers trying to beat each other off the line in the future .. a back to the future moment but with EVs instead of V8 muscle cars racing each other from one set of traffic lights to the next. Wouldn't want to be on an e-scooter and turn around to see 2 EVs silently bearing down on me at 'ludicrous' speeds! Ah maybe motoring fun won't become extinct after all

unkel

Silent Running wrote: »

The Ioniq can be driven hard without costing very much more, and it can leave most "premium" cars sitting at the traffic light drag strip. :P

You should have seen that BMW520d that I raced twice without him knowing that I was racing him. I pretended I didn't even know he was there. From the corner of my eye I spotted the horror and confusion on his face

unkel

unkel wrote: »

You should have seen that BMW520d that I raced twice without him knowing that I was racing him. I pretended I didn't even know he was there. From the corner of my eye I spotted the horror and confusion on his face

And then you woke up !

unkel

Nope. I was way ahead from the lights, but he crept up on me and overtook me at about 80km/h. Twice. But I was holding off at that speed anyway as there are often checks and the road has 80km/h speed limit (N4 outbound a bit past Heuston)

I'd say if there were 0-50km/h reference sites, they would back me up. Didn't I read somewhere that the original i3 (ohne REx ) is quicker to 50km/h than the E92 BMW M3?

charlieIRL

unkel wrote: »

That sounds very high. eGolf average consumption about 15kWh/100km? Night rate about 8c/kWh incl VAT? That means 15 * 0.08 / 100 = €0.012 per km

Saving over 130,000 km times (€0.084 - €0.012) is almost ten grand :eek:

My golf doesn't do 15kWh/100kms!!! 19-20kWh is more like it, shoots up when using heater as well. Still its cheaper and I have a new car.........









...and i'm helping the environment!!!

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Nope. I was way ahead from the lights, but he crept up on me and overtook me at about 80km/h. Twice. But I was holding off at that speed anyway as there are often checks and the road has 80km/h speed limit (N4 outbound a bit past Heuston)

I'd say if there were 0-50km/h reference sites, they would back me up. Didn't I read somewhere that the original i3 (ohne REx ) is quicker to 50km/h than the E92 BMW M3?

Lol I have no idea, I want more power, it's funny actually, when I came from the leaf to the i3 I wa delighted with the power upgrade now I don't really notice it, until I drive the Outlander of course or my Mother's car then I really do appreciate the power, RWD and instant acceleration.

unkel

Yeah I'm afraid to go drive a BEV i3 because I reckon I might be hooked

DrPhilG

I spent a weekend in a BMW x1 diesel while my i3 was getting serviced.

Horrendous. Nearly got killed at a roundabout because I didn't anticipate just how ridiculously slow off the line it was.

I could never go back to ICE.