Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 11-01-2019 12:26pm

Dia1988 wrote: »

Those nurses do **** all anyway only sit down at nurses station and bitch how everything is so unfair for them and they're over worked, despite they sitting down for half their shift!

No. don't give them a pay rise!

They're not as qualified as Doctors, Primary Teachers , Engineers and/or architects.

Do nothing? The nurses in the oncology day ward I attend are on their feet non-stop for 12 hour shifts. I’m often on the ward for 10 hours. The plethora of things they have to deal with - making sure the right treatment in the right dosage goes to the right patient (getting this wrong can kill), making sure they are giving the right blood type to each person being tranfused (getting this wrong can kill), organising patients to be sent for emergency X-rays and CTs, relying correct information between doctors and patients, dealing with (very frequent) patient meltdowns, taking bloods (which can be very difficult in long-term patients with busted veins) and checking on delayed blood results, making sure that patients that are there all day get fed, organising for patients to be sent to in-patient wards if they deteriorate, assisting in bone marrow biopsies that often have to be done there and then on the ward - and that’s just the things I’ve observed. I’m sure I don’t know the half of it. I do know they have meetings to attend where they discuss patients and that’s a LOT of patients.

You DO sometime see them sitting at computers but the nurses’ station in the ward I visit is open to patients passing by. Playing solitaire they ain’t. They are usually scheduling things for patients or checking appointments.

road_high · 11-01-2019 1:20pm

mariaalice wrote: »

No they are comparing degree required for the job which it is, its a very public service thing.

Now whether you need a degree for the job is a different question, you do in today climate because of the level of responsibility.

I think Nursing is a great degree, it’s high quality for sure. I do agree Nurses need a degree these days alright as a minimum.
My main concern here is where we’d find the money for increased pay.

Graces7 · 11-01-2019 2:07pm

chopperbyrne wrote: »

My wife's a psychiatric nurse.

She didn't vote for strike action.

The PNA are going to compensate her to the tune of €15 a day.

Good for her. No respect due to nurses who strike.

Fann Linn · 11-01-2019 2:09pm

Graces7 wrote: »

Good for her. No respect due to nurses who strike.

I think she is going on strike Grace.

Graces7 · 11-01-2019 2:18pm

Fann Linn wrote: »

I think she is going on strike Grace.

Ok; that was not my reading of it, but that is how I and others feel re the strikes by nurses. No respect for them.

Mitch Connor · 11-01-2019 2:21pm

road_high wrote: »

That's debatable but anyhow....why can't we compare contents of Degrees? People seem very happy to compare salaries so let's compare the intellectual capacities and knowledge behind them.

I wouldn't trust a maths teacher to provide nursing care, so they should be paid less?

road_high · 11-01-2019 3:04pm

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I wouldn't trust a maths teacher to provide nursing care, so they should be paid less?

Depends on the individual really.

hawkelady · 11-01-2019 3:13pm

Graces7 wrote: »

Ok; that was not my reading of it, but that is how I and others feel re the strikes by nurses. No respect for them.

Let’s hope they return your feelings when you end up in hospital and show you no respect ! But they won’t , they will show you care . Horrible person

ILikeBananas · 11-01-2019 3:13pm

The Irish Times Politics podcast discussed this during the week. They thought that it might be a hard sell to the public based on that fact that, including allowances:

The average pay was €58k
80% of nurses are paid > €40k
Graduates start on €36k

I suspect that the union will tend to steer the conversation away from the above figures since the general public might lose support for the nurses if they discovered that they were being paid more than themselves.

road_high · 11-01-2019 3:29pm

ILikeBananas wrote: »

The Irish Times Politics podcast discussed this during the week. They thought that it might be a hard sell to the public based on that fact that, including allowances:
The average pay was €58k

80% of nurses are paid > €40k

Graduates start on €36k

I suspect that the union will tend to steer the conversation away from the above figures since the general public might lose support for the nurses if they discovered that they were being paid more than themselves.

They are good salaries by any reckoning.

L'prof · 11-01-2019 3:36pm

road_high wrote: »

They are good salaries by any reckoning.

On the face of it they are but that surely includes shiftwork and overtime. I wonder what their basic would be if they worked 9-5 Mon-Fri? For all their training they’re a long way off what doctors earn. I know factory workers with no 3rd level education on similar salaries after bonuses, overtime and shift premiums

Yillan · 11-01-2019 3:49pm

L'prof wrote: »

On the face of it they are but that surely includes shiftwork and overtime. I wonder what their basic would be if they worked 9-5 Mon-Fri? For all their training they’re a long way off what doctors earn. I know factory workers with no 3rd level education on similar salaries after bonuses, overtime and shift premiums

Are they?

James Brown · 11-01-2019 3:59pm

Tell me how wrote: »

That's being entirely disingenuous.

I think nurses need to be well paid for the service they provide.
If the average nurse earnings is 57K per annum, in my mind, that is well paid for the role.

What do you think?

No it's not. How many time is talk of the cost of living whittled down to the spongers getting Christmas bonus?
How often is talk of the HSE being in a state turned to a discussion on the quality of nurses/front line staff?
It happens more than some are willing to discuss policies or changing how things work IMO.

I think Nurses should fight for the salary they believe they need and deserve and any flaws with the HSE are an issue for policy makers to address not for front line workers to explain over wanting a raise.

Tell me how · 11-01-2019 4:01pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

No it's not. How many time is talk of the cost of living whittled down to the spongers getting Christmas bonus?
How often is talk of the HSE being in a state turned to a discussion on the quality of nurses/front line staff?
It happens more than some are willing to discuss policies or changing how things work IMO.

I think Nurses should fight for the salary they believe they need and deserve and any flaws with the HSE are an issue for policy makers to address not for front line workers to explain over wanting a raise.

Can you respond to this query which I asked you please.

If the average nurse earnings is 57K per annum, in my mind, that is well paid for the role.

What do you think?

James Brown · 11-01-2019 4:04pm

Graces7 wrote: »

Good for her. No respect due to nurses who strike.

Based on the lack of respect given, the only recourse they have is to strike.

James Brown · 11-01-2019 4:07pm

Tell me how wrote: »

Can you respond to this query which I asked you please.

I disagree with the figure. There's a nurse on this thread no where near that. It's an average.
And reiterate, they have the right to strike and seek what they feel they need and I support them 100%.

When bank CEO or what ever gets massive raises despite losses and bailouts we hear about how that's what you have to do to get quality and so on, yet when workers try same they get the weight of all the issues associated with the health service. It's hypocrisy.

EDIT: There's your 'disingenuous' see below...

Dia1988 · 11-01-2019 4:08pm

If nurses get paid starting 36k that's far too much already.

They're just being greedy moaning that they get paid pittance and how Doctors are paid way more. Reality check, they're not Doctors!!!

Tell me how · 11-01-2019 4:12pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I disagree with the figure. There's a nurse on this thread no where near that. It's an average.
And reiterate, they have the right to strike and seek what they feel they need and I support them 100%.

When bank CEO or what ever gets massive raises despite losses and bailouts we hear about how that's what you have to do to get quality and so on, yet when workers try same they get the weight of all the issues associated with the health service. It's hypocrisy.

EDIT: There's your 'disingenuous' see below...

Red bolded part. But no one has countered the figure. Phil Ni Sheaghdha, secretary of the INMO didn't do so and therefore I assume it is true.

If it is, what do you think? If you can point me to a reputable source showing that this average is not true then I will gladly read that.

As for the black bolded part. I do not agree with that either but we cannot just pay money to one group which will have to be found every year, will lead to similar demands from other groups and without targetting the inefficiencies in the system to ensure they do not feel overworked and so must leave. Money will not make someone stay in a job if they truly hate it.

Blue bolded part. Yes, such an opinion is not helpful to the discussion.

spodoinkle · 11-01-2019 4:52pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

37 hours, average salary is 55k per annum not including overtime

lol b*llocks

my wife is a qualified nurse and now midwife for 14 years in total and nowhere near that

Dia1988 · 11-01-2019 4:58pm

spodoinkle wrote: »

lol b*llocks

my wife is a qualified nurse and now midwife for 14 years in total and nowhere near that

What's she on then?

Paddy Samurai · 11-01-2019 5:03pm

hawkelady wrote: »

Well that’s BS because I only recently witnessed two nurses clean up blood from an elderly lady who bled all over the bed , it was horrific to witness but there you have it !! Nurses do clean up.

Most of the patient clean up in hospitals is done by HCA's

noodler · 11-01-2019 5:10pm

ILikeBananas wrote: »

The Irish Times Politics podcast discussed this during the week. They thought that it might be a hard sell to the public based on that fact that, including allowances:
The average pay was €58k

80% of nurses are paid > €40k

Graduates start on €36k

I suspect that the union will tend to steer the conversation away from the above figures since the general public might lose support for the nurses if they discovered that they were being paid more than themselves.

These types of fact aren't really discussed too often in the public domain.

Fully respect nurses etc but they are an absolute sacred cow when it comes to any criticism whatsoever.

There have been a number of pay rises in recent years and they are reasonably well paid with further pay rises affecting all public servants kicking in this year.

Pay deals in the public sector almost never affect just one group.

The country cannot afford the fairly unprecedented % increase sought for such a large % of its workforce and certainly not the counter claims that will follow from other parts of the PS.

mariaalice · 11-01-2019 5:12pm

noodler wrote: »

These types of fact aren't really discussed too often in the public domain.

Fully respect nurses etc but they are an absolute sacred cow when it comes to any criticism whatsoever.

There have been a number of pay rises in recent years and they are reasonably well paid with further pay rises affecting all public servants kicking in this year.

Pay deals in the public sector almost never affect just one group.

The country cannot afford the fairly unprecedented % increase sought for such a large % of its workforce and certainly not the counter claims that will follow from other parts of the PS.

That is the big issue the counter claims from other public servants.

Varta · 11-01-2019 5:25pm

Tell me how wrote: »

If this is the case, why aren't nurses striking for structural change.

Every time I'm in a hospital I see nurses doing jobs I think I would find very hard to do. Mentally and physically it must be very difficult. But, if they are on an average of 57K with 3k more due on agreed rises as part of the current deal before the end of 2020, I find it hard to argue for a pay rise now.

The average indicates the money is in the system. It just shows the structure is messed up.

Can you please outline exactly where this €57,000 average comes from. I ask because the FACT is that most nurses are staff nurses and the maximum wage for a staff nurse is €45,500. Some staff nurses will have an additional qualification extra allowance of €2,000pa, but not all. Average pay across an entire sector is not actually relevant. Address the staff nurse level of pay and I believe nurses would be happy to call of the proposed strike.

Varta · 11-01-2019 5:27pm

Dia1988 wrote: »

Only you said long tea breaks and 40 minutes, I never mentioned that. You're making up stuff to defend nurses.

A g good majority a moany whiney lazy that sit chatting for the vast period of their shift. I've seen this myself.

Why are you being allowed to get away with comments like this. Is there no moderation?

Varta · 11-01-2019 5:28pm

Graces7 wrote: »

Ok; that was not my reading of it, but that is how I and others feel re the strikes by nurses. No respect for them.

Would you prefer to go back to the days when the nuns ran the hospital and the nurses did what the nuns told them to do and sang in choirs on holy days and on days of ministerial visits, because that's how it was before nurses began to speak up for themselves.

Tell me how · 11-01-2019 5:29pm

Varta wrote: »

Would you prefer to go back to the days when the nuns ran the hospital and the nurses did what the nuns told them to do and sang in choirs on holy days and on days of ministerial visits, because that's how it was before nurses began to speak up for themselves.

Don't ask a question if you are not ready for the answer...

Varta · 11-01-2019 5:29pm

mariaalice wrote: »

That is the big issue the counter claims from other public servants.

The nurses pay claim is a legacy issue. It should not involve any other member of the public sector.

Varta · 11-01-2019 5:30pm

Tell me how wrote: »

Don't ask a question if you are not ready for the answer...

I know well how some people would answer.

Tell me how · 11-01-2019 5:31pm

Varta wrote: »

The nurses pay claim is a legacy issue. It should not involve any other member of the public sector.

Each group within the public sector would say the same thing but we cannot afford to treat them differently.

There would constantly be separate negotiations ongoing.

Varta · 11-01-2019 5:31pm

spodoinkle wrote: »

lol b*llocks

my wife is a qualified nurse and now midwife for 14 years in total and nowhere near that

They will keep throwing an 'average' figure at you. And by doing that they are implicitly defending the higher pay scales in the HSE.

road_high · 11-01-2019 5:32pm

Varta wrote: »

The nurses pay claim is a legacy issue. It should not involve any other member of the public sector.

It will though. The dam will be opened and it’s 2002 all over.

Varta · 11-01-2019 5:32pm

Tell me how wrote: »

Can you respond to this query which I asked you please.

And who is this average nurse?

Pissartist · 11-01-2019 5:33pm

Of course they will, do they deserve it ? that's another question.

Varta · 11-01-2019 5:33pm

road_high wrote: »

It will though. The dam will be opened and it’s 2002 all over.

I think you need to take that up with those public servants at that time, to be fair.

Paulzx · 11-01-2019 5:34pm

I apply a general rule when considering salary figures that have been released during a dispute in order to get an accurate figure for what the employee actually gets paid.

Take the figure the employer has released.
Take the figure the union has released.

Whatever is in the middle of the two is probably the closest to the actual salary.

Varta · 11-01-2019 5:35pm

noodler wrote: »

These types of fact aren't really discussed too often in the public domain.

Fully respect nurses etc but they are an absolute sacred cow when it comes to any criticism whatsoever.

There have been a number of pay rises in recent years and they are reasonably well paid with further pay rises affecting all public servants kicking in this year.

Pay deals in the public sector almost never affect just one group.

The country cannot afford the fairly unprecedented % increase sought for such a large % of its workforce and certainly not the counter claims that will follow from other parts of the PS.

The middle of those three lines is the one that matters.

Tell me how · 11-01-2019 5:35pm

Varta wrote: »

And who is this average nurse?

You know as well as I do what average means.

realitykeeper · 11-01-2019 5:36pm

No they don`t deserve a pay rise, they deserve a massive pay cut and half of them should be sacked. It would be a good idea to cut their pay first before sacking them to reduce the redundancy costs. Speaking of redundancy payments, what a rediculous notion! They got their weekly wages when they were working, whats with this lump sum giveaways of taxpayers money for nothing? One has to laugh at this suggestion the nurses are leaving the HSE. The HSE is too imcompetent to recruit and they don`t know how to run a health service, simple as that. Besides, in order to cut spending, we want the nurses to leave and if they go of their own volition, Great! No redundancy for them.

Varta · 11-01-2019 5:37pm

Tell me how wrote: »

You know as well as I do what average means.

But it doesn't actually give us much information, does it. Over 80% of nurses earn less than 47,000.

Dia1988 · 11-01-2019 5:38pm

Varta · 11-01-2019 5:39pm

Paulzx wrote: »

I apply a general rule when considering salary figures that have been released during a dispute in order to get an accurate figure for what the employee actually gets paid.

Take the figure the employer has released.
Take the figure the union has released.

Whatever is in the middle of the two is probably the closest to the actual salary.

Do you apply this to everything in life?

Varta · 11-01-2019 5:41pm

Tell me how wrote: »

Each group within the public sector would say the same thing but we cannot afford to treat them differently.

There would constantly be separate negotiations ongoing.

They might well say the same thing, but it would not be true for them, therefore it could be resisted.

As a self-employed person I am generally not in favour of increasing public service pay, but I can recognise when a legacy pay issue is creating a problem within a vital public service.

Tell me how · 11-01-2019 5:41pm

Varta wrote: »

But it doesn't actually give us much information, does it. Over 80% of nurses earn less than 47,000.

If they do, and the average is what it is then the problem is the rates for the other 20%. I understand that they are doing some form of management but to put the average up that high seems way out of kilter.

This disparity (if it is the case) should not be fixed by paying everyone 12% more.

circadian · 11-01-2019 5:41pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

No they don`t deserve a pay rise, they deserve a massive pay cut and half of them should be sacked. It would be a good idea to cut their pay first before sacking them to reduce the redundancy costs. Speaking of redundancy payments, what a rediculous notion! They got their weekly wages when they were working, whats with this lump sum giveaways of taxpayers money for nothing? One has to laugh at this suggestion the nurses are leaving the HSE. The HSE is too imcompetent to recruit and they don`t know how to run a health service, simple as that. Besides, in order to cut spending, we want the nurses to leave and if they go of their own volition, Great! No redundancy for them.

Right so.

Varta · 11-01-2019 5:42pm

Tell me how wrote: »

If they do, and the average is what it is then the problem is the rates for the other 20%. I understand that they are doing some form of management but to put the average up that high seems way out of kilter.

This disparity (if it is the case) should not be fixed by paying everyone 12% more.

Now we are in agreement. I don't believe there should be an increase across the board, but I do support an increase in the basic staff nurse rate.

Lone Stone · 11-01-2019 5:43pm

before my mother spent a stint in hospital over several months, i would have said yes but after i would say no. All i seen were nurses sitting around chatting paying zero attention to patients on the ward, had to go looking for them and non to be seen while people had fit's falls one guy was choking some were amazing nurses but the majority i found complete and utter dossers avoided doing any thing at all, one was so sadistic she got fired. The carers on the ward did more work than the nurses and that's a fact.

Dia1988 · 11-01-2019 5:46pm

Here's a good description.
In reality nurses are on Facebook.

Tell me how · 11-01-2019 5:46pm

Varta wrote: »

Now we are in agreement. I don't believe there should be an increase across the board, but I do support an increase in the basic staff nurse rate.

But the nurses union are not advocating for that and I don't believe it will work that way either.

Dia1988 · 11-01-2019 5:49pm

Dia1988 wrote: »

Here's a good description.
In reality nurses are on Facebook.

Agree

Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

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