Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

trellheim · 03-07-2018 3:16pm #1

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/0703/975926-ryanair_pilots/

Voted in favour - lets' see what happens

PS Ingrid Miley says 99% vote for , by fulltimers

Before it gets too big and unmanageable, I am going to rename this, and suggest that this thread be kept for discussions about the industrial relations aspects of the strike situation at Ryanair. Questions about flight disruptions or cancellations should be posted in the "other" Ryanair strike thread.

Anyone choosing to make offensive comments about another poster, or senior management at Ryanair will be sanctioned, or banned for a period, this thread will be busy enough as it is, without inappropriate posts.

In the same vein, while the law and legal protection for a corporate entity such as a trade union is not the same as for an individual, there are legal protections for such entities, so to ensure fairness, the same guidelines in relation to attacking a poster etc as above will also apply to comments about the activities or actions of trade unions or other representative bodies.

There are always 2 sides to any argument, so the arguments and claims of both sides need to be heard, and we want to allow fair and reasonable debate across the wider audience that read this site.

Please help us to achieve that by respecting this request.

Mebuntu · 03-07-2018 3:20pm

No surprise there. This has been IALPA's dream and quest for more than 20 years. Another word that could be used - revenge.

Fitz* · 03-07-2018 3:28pm

Much risk it could continue longer than the 24 hours do you think?

sparrowcar · 03-07-2018 4:04pm

If it actually goes ahead then I think it will escalate quickly initially before everyone calms down and decides to talk.

It's been festering for years so not going to blow over with 1 strike day.

Padraig Mor · 03-07-2018 4:08pm

McTJES wrote: »

Does anyone know...

I know that when they ballot they have to give 7 days notice minimum to strike
After the first strike action if it goes ahead on the 12th can they strike again then whenever they want? Due to fly 19th. Was so worried this was going to happen.

The union have already said they'll strike again, but haven't notified which days yet.

Does this union actually have the backing of most Irish Ryanair pilots, or is it just a rump of troublemakers? i.e. could it be the case that a significant portion of the schedule would still be flown?

.G. · 03-07-2018 4:14pm

Padraig Mor wrote:

Does this union actually have the backing of most Irish Ryanair pilots, or is it just a rump of troublemakers? i.e. could it be the case that a significant portion of the schedule would still be flown?

Just said on the news they represent 126 pilots.

03-07-2018 4:30pm

Just bear in mind if this is Dublin pilots then a lot of services will still operate as the flights will originate from outside Ireland. Now that is unless they refuse to “break” the strike.

PCros · 03-07-2018 4:35pm

Is this Dublin based pilots or actual Irish pilots based around Europe?

L1011 · 03-07-2018 4:57pm

superg wrote: »

Just said on the news they represent 126 pilots.

And I believe they're mostly captains, so the impact would be amplified

Not every flight to or from Dublin is a Dublin based aircraft

Tenger · 03-07-2018 5:02pm

It’s reported that this ballot is amongst the 126 Dublin based directly employed pilots. I believe that contractors are unable to ballot as they are viewed/classed as non Ryanair workers. (Which is one of the festering issues)
This ballot could spread to other bases with directly employed pilots.

They aren’t looking for a pay increase, they are looking for a seniority list and a transparency around bases choice/allocation. This is the sort of thing that >90% of global airlines have in place.

Nomis21 · 03-07-2018 5:05pm

McTJES wrote: »

Does anyone know...

I know that when they ballot they have to give 7 days notice minimum to strike
After the first strike action if it goes ahead on the 12th can they strike again then whenever they want? Due to fly 19th. Was so worried this was going to happen.

Do they have to wait till one strike is over before giving 7 days notice of the next one? Or could they, for example, announce another strike tomorrow for 13th?

devnull · 03-07-2018 5:47pm

Why are the union refusing to meet Ryanair for the last few weeks to discuss it if what Ryanair says is correct?

Are they just desperate to strike without even trying to come to an agreement?

View Profile · 03-07-2018 6:18pm

devnull wrote:

Why are the union refusing to meet Ryanair for the last few weeks to discuss it if what Ryanair says is correct?

devnull wrote:

Are they just desperate to strike without even trying to come to an agreement?

Devnull you are showing your naivety once again regarding Ryanair's ongoing industrial disputes.
Do you believe Ryanair are actually telling the truth?!! Have they ever been honest or forthcoming with their statements?!!

Forsa have written to Ryanair countless times to organise a meeting at a neutral location to discuss staff concerns but Ryanair point blank refuse.

Snake Plisken · 03-07-2018 6:34pm

Didn't they mention on the news Ryanair cabin crew are discussing industrial action as well? Might be a double whammy next week.

Stevek101 · 03-07-2018 6:51pm

View Profile wrote: »

Devnull you are showing your naivety once again regarding Ryanair's ongoing industrial disputes.
Do you believe Ryanair are actually telling the truth?!! Have they ever been honest or forthcoming with their statements?!!

Forsa have written to Ryanair countless times to organise a meeting at a neutral location to discuss staff concerns but Ryanair point blank refuse.

I don't see what the issue is with the venue. Why spend extra money on a room and catering. Day out for the Aer Lingus union reps?

Bob24 · 03-07-2018 7:19pm

Stevek101 wrote: »

I don't see what the issue is with the venue. Why spend extra money on a room and catering. Day out for the Aer Lingus union reps?

If the venue was of no importance, Ryanair would accept the one proposed by the union.

Both parties obviously have their own reasons for suggesting a specific venue.

View Profile · 03-07-2018 7:46pm

Stevek101 wrote:

I don't see what the issue is with the venue. Why spend extra money on a room and catering. Day out for the Aer Lingus union reps?

No Aer Lingus reps involved in negotiations. Only IALPA Ryanair pilots and trade union staff from Forsa.

Bob24 wrote:

Both parties obviously have their own reasons for suggesting a specific venue.

It's common curiosity to meet at a neutral location when two parties meet for discussion. Ryanair are just acting the bollox by only looking to meet at its HQ.

rivegauche · 03-07-2018 9:11pm

Tenger wrote: »

They aren’t looking for a pay increase, they are looking for a seniority list and a transparency around bases choice/allocation. This is the sort of thing that >90% of global airlines have in place.

You're right. It is not about pay. It is about established pilots getting the sweetest deal possible for themselves at the expense of their younger Colleagues in their workplace.
They're voting for the forced introduction of the absolute antithesis of a meritocratic workplace where those with greatest aptitude and work ethic would normally be rewarded.
Instead, the established pilots who voted or rather had the right to vote for this, voted to give themselves the best holiday slots and the best bases.
It is the equivalent of the old hands in the local convenience store giving the new hires all the late night shifts and heavy lifting tasks.

What this means in actuality is that those younger pilots with younger families will find themselves rarely being at home for holiday season or for family occasions and they can't work themselves earlier in to a secure settled base.

Note that the Union pushes on this topic now rather than addressing the high proportion of pilots who are on contracts and are more akin to casual labour. If those younger staff had the vote you could be sure that the vote wouldn't be so resounding in favour of strike action on this topic.

Please remember that the Pilots who are going out on strike are the ones who are disrupting the travel plans of tens of thousands of people. The cabin crew aren't going to be told tomorrow that they don't need to come in on the 12th of July so that they can rearrange their plans; that is a day wasted for them which they are probably not going to get paid for. They'll be told to take a holiday at short notice with nothing to do or forced to work days they had planned to be off duty at another time of the year. As for the other non-union pilots; they either have to work harder to compensate or are told their services aren't needed at short notice because their line training captain isn't available. More days wasted to them.

The topic of seniority is discussed in a more frank and balanced fashion on forums like pprune which isn't frequented by civilians or consumers to the same extent.
Here you just have a pronouncement from the Union representative in residence who also happens to be a moderator that Seniority is common in the Industry and tries to lead affected Customers to believe that once again Ryanair is to blame and because the issue isn't about pay it couldn't possibly be the case that the strike is caused by the greed of a vested interest group i.e. Ryanair Union Member Pilots.

This action hurts Consumers more than Ryanair. No EU261 €250 or €500 compensation needs to be paid by Ryanair as it is a strike action.

Ryanair might actually cave in on this command because they'll just force contracted and junior staff to accept the Seniority rules which the more Senior Pilots are looking to have implemented but don't fool yourself that there is anything noble in the actions of the Union here. The objective here is to cause as much angst for Ryanair Customers in the hope that it somewhat affects the company.

View Profile · 03-07-2018 9:30pm

Rivegauche, you couldn't be more wrong.

This entire movement was started by fed up Ryanair pilots. 30 years of seeing your pension, pay, terms and conditions and having your CEO mock your profession led to this moment.

The pilot body wants better terms for all staff. Cadet pilots, junior cabin crew, part-time ground staff, and student workers in HQ included.

Once the pilots establish a collective labour agreement for themselves, then the remaining staff can all benefit.

rivegauche · 03-07-2018 9:39pm

You are hardly an impartial commentator.
Your contributions to this forum have shown that you have been willing on industrial action at every step. You have never wanted the two parties to come to an amicable agreement on any labour relations issue thereby avoiding industrial action.

I judge the Union by their actions and their actions have been to secure preferential terms for themselves at the expense of those they work alongside.
That is not solidarity.

View Profile · 03-07-2018 9:54pm

Nonsense.

That's exactly what I want want.

If Ryanair meets the terms of the ballot then the strike is off and everyone wins. Apart from O'Leary the grinch!

rivegauche · 03-07-2018 9:58pm

Union votes to be paid one squillion euro for a position close to be classified as a sinecure and acquiesced to by the Company is your idea is your idea of an amicable resolution to an industrial relations issue.
My points stand and your contributions over the past reflect your position.

L1011 · 03-07-2018 10:00pm

rivegauche wrote: »

Union votes to be paid one squillion euro for a position close to be classified as a sinecure and acquiesced to by the Company is your idea is your idea of an amicable resolution to an industrial relations issue.
My points stand and your contributions over the past reflect your position.

Playing the poster is not acceptable - particularly as you'd be quoting off thread and likely in to ancient history.

CoisFharraige · 03-07-2018 10:10pm

rivegauche wrote: »

Union votes to be paid one squillion euro for a position close to be classified as a sinecure and acquiesced to by the Company is your idea is your idea of an amicable resolution to an industrial relations issue.
My points stand and your contributions over the past reflect your position.

Pilots wouldn’t have voted at a 99% rate if they weren’t as sick of management as they are. I’m not going to get into it again, but if you were moved from your family in Dublin to sunny Bratislava for 3 years, would you be as quick to judge? The only way pilots can return is if they play a carrot-chasing game with management.

Also, captains (LTCs, TRI/Es as well) have a much higher say in their base etc than new FOs, especially now as captains are so scarce. They’re not voting for ‘sweet’ deals as you alluded to - some of the things management does are just horrible. I stand completely with everyone who balloted for strike action.

rivegauche · 03-07-2018 10:33pm

CoisFharraige wrote: »

Pilots wouldn’t have voted at a 99% rate if they weren’t as sick of management as they are. I’m not going to get into it again, but if you were moved from your family in Dublin to sunny Bratislava for 3 years, would you be as quick to judge? The only way pilots can return is if they play a carrot-chasing game with management.

A quick google tells me that Bratislava was a one plane base from March 2015 until 2017 when it got a second. Is that close to correct? If so, that doesn't strongly support the claim that Ryanair as a rule are intentionally and willfully exiling people to the far ends of Europe.

billie1b · 03-07-2018 10:39pm

rivegauche wrote: »

A quick google tells me that Bratislava was a one plane base from March 2015 until 2017 when it got a second. Is that close to correct? If so, that doesn't strongly support the claim that Ryanair as a rule are intentionally and willfully exiling people to the far ends of Europe.

Doesn’t matter what google says, listen to people from the company/industry, Ryanair love sending their Irish pilots to overseas bases and European pilots to the UK and Irish bases, all having to pay for their own accommodation in their base and if they have a house/family at home there too. They have an absolute shambles of a system thats at breaking point!

Spanish Eyes · 03-07-2018 10:50pm

Why does RYR do this, i.e. send pilots who live here abroad, and those abroad to here and UK? I have no idea, someone might fill me in. Sounds very controlling or something like that.

Sorry for all those whose travel plans will be disrupted. It is not nice at all. But sometimes some good comes out of these actions. Unlike the French ATC shenanigans that happen EVERY year and still no end in sight.

Ferries might make a bit of business out of this eventually. Well apart from the ship that is not ready to go now!

AL were in strike mode periodically too a couple of years ago. That seems to have settled down now touch wood.

The problem might be that strikes will continue with short notice if the current issue is not resolved quickly. Not sure of the employment law, maybe seven days must be given of any strike action. Still that's no comfort if you are ready to go.

CoisFharraige · 03-07-2018 10:57pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Why does RYR do this, i.e. send pilots who live here abroad, and those abroad to here and UK? I have no idea, someone might fill me in. Sounds very controlling or something like that.

Sorry for all those whose travel plans will be disrupted. It is not nice at all. But sometimes some good comes out of these actions. Unlike the French ATC shenanigans that happen EVERY year and still no end in sight.

Ferries might make a bit of business out of this eventually. Well apart from the ship that is not ready to go now!

AL were in strike mode periodically too a couple of years ago. That seems to have settled down now touch wood.

The problem might be that strikes will continue with short notice if the current issue is not resolved quickly. Not sure of the employment law, maybe seven days must be given of any strike action. Still that's no comfort if you are ready to go.

The company wants to make sure that pilots keep quiet and don’t ask for anything. To do this, they base them far away from their preferred base. In turn, a pilot who wants to return home has to abide by rules such as waking up in the middle of their ‘rest’ period at night to get up for an early start due to sick crew. They are threatened to do other things which I won’t get into and they subdue to this because understandably, they want to get home as soon as they can to their families / homes.

I agree, the whole situation in Europe is a bit of a shambles atm.

plodder · 04-07-2018 10:47am

Tenger wrote: »

It’s reported that this ballot is amongst the 126 Dublin based directly employed pilots. I believe that contractors are unable to ballot as they are viewed/classed as non Ryanair workers. (Which is one of the festering issues)
This ballot could spread to other bases with directly employed pilots.

They aren’t looking for a pay increase, they are looking for a seniority list and a transparency around bases choice/allocation. This is the sort of thing that >90% of global airlines have in place.

classed by who as non-Ryanair workers?

I don't follow the logic there. If the union wants contractors to be treated the same as employees why not let them take part in the ballot?

rivegauche · 04-07-2018 10:54am

Ryanair will only be able to advise of cancelled flights on Tuesday of next week.
"Ryanair has pledged to contact customers next Tuesday should the July 12th strike go ahead."

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/thousands-to-be-hit-by-ryanair-strike-as-unrest-threatens-to-spread-beyond-ireland-1.3552982

Considering the magnitude of the despicable unilateral action by the Unions I'm not surprised that they can't begin to cancel flights before Tuesday.

Please remember that the Unions decided to Strike knowing that it would have an effect on the travel plans of tens of thousands of Irish people. Ryanair didn't force this strike. The Union will use every media outlet available to it to try to convince you otherwise and their claims should be recognized for the blatant falsehoods that they are.

...and always remember this strike is about Seniority. Inform yourself as to what "Seniority" means in practice and if it is something that the Founders of the Trade Union Movement would have ever supported or conversely something that they would have found abhorrent.

Bob24 · 04-07-2018 10:56am

plodder wrote: »

classed by who as non-Ryanair workers?

I don't follow the logic there. If the union wants contractors to be treated the same as employees why not let them take part in the ballot?

The union only represents Ryanair employees and contractors aren’t Ryanair employees.

This is the “beauty” (and I don’t say this in a positive way) of Ryanair’s business model: most pilots are technically their own bosses but since they are exclusively working for Ryanair and paid hourly (I believe with financial penalties when they refuse to work at requested times), they have no leverage.

rivegauche · 04-07-2018 11:00am

Bob24 wrote: »

The union only represents Ryanair employees and contractors aren’t Ryanair employees.

This is the “beauty” (and I don’t say this in a positive way) of Ryanair’s business model: most pilots are technically their own bosses but since they are exclusively working for Ryanair and paid hourly (I believe with financial penalties when they refuse to work at requested times), they have no leverage.

A fact which the Union, not the Employer, is now exploiting to turn the people who they work alongside day in, day out in to individuals who are less deserving of time off to see their family or be based close to home.
A reprehensible pre-meditated selfish action.

Bob24 · 04-07-2018 11:03am

rivegauche wrote: »

A fact which the Union, not the Employer, is now exploiting to turn the people who they work alongside day in, day out in to individuals who are less deserving of time off to see their family or be based close to home.
A reprehensible pre-meditated selfish action.

FTEs are just defending their own interest through a union. I don’t see any problem here.

Because contractors are treated poorly doesn’t mean FTEs should not defend what they see as their legitimate interest.

plodder · 04-07-2018 11:16am

Bob24 wrote: »

This is the “beauty” (and I don’t say this in a positive way) of Ryanair’s business model: most pilots are technically their own bosses but since they are exclusively working for Ryanair and paid hourly (I believe with financial penalties when they refuse to work at requested times), they have no leverage.

I'm aware of all that, and I've often said I don't even know how they've gotten away with it (legally). But, I find it odd that the union would exclude these people from voting in the ballot. That sounds to me like they're not that interested in representing the contractors.

rivegauche · 04-07-2018 11:18am

If you don't see how morally wrong this is then I can't convince you.
Supposedly the Pilots wished to establish a Union to protect the rights of workers and the Ryanair Pilot Group sought "Professional Treatment for Professional Pilots" which has now mutated in to a strike action where some "Professional Pilots" who happen to have tenure are militating to get preferential treatment at the expense of other "Professional Pilots" who provide their services directly and only to Ryanair but don't have a full time contract of ongoing employment; which the RPG would have previously argued were de facto employees of Ryanair.
They're professional pilots otherwise they wouldn't be let near the cabin of a plane but what RPG supposedly stood for has now been forgotten while some selfish so-and-sos elbow their way to the trough.

We are "through the Looking glass" now.

PCros · 04-07-2018 11:47am

rivegauche wrote: »

Considering the magnitude of the despicable unilateral action by the Unions I'm not surprised that they can't begin to cancel flights before Tuesday.

I think its a case where there could be a breakthrough over the next few days which would a better outcome instead of cancelling flights now.

Tuesday would be the latest that they could leave it.

CoisFharraige · 04-07-2018 12:28pm

plodder wrote: »

Bob24 wrote: »

This is the “beauty” (and I don’t say this in a positive way) of Ryanair’s business model: most pilots are technically their own bosses but since they are exclusively working for Ryanair and paid hourly (I believe with financial penalties when they refuse to work at requested times), they have no leverage.

I'm aware of all that, and I've often said I don't even know how they've gotten away with it (legally). But, I find it odd that the union would exclude these people from voting in the ballot. That sounds to me like they're not that interested in representing the contractors.

Legally, the contractors cannot participate in ballots for strike action (they can’t even strike). They aren’t excluding them on purpose. This business model is under threat in mainland Europe now anyway with some countries beginning to stop it, such as Germany. Ryanair can easily dismiss their ‘services’ (not them) if they strike, whereas for their own employees it’s much more challenging to dismiss them, from a legal perspective (even though I wouldn’t put it past them).

Employees have the right to strike, contractors don’t - that’s the main problem with this. You’ll find that the union’s objective isn’t to separate the pilots or get some of them a good deal whilst excluding others, but more so an attack on Ryanair and MOL.

trellheim · 04-07-2018 12:40pm

I have always wondered - I thought this contractor style of employment was thrown out as effectively they have no other employer and their hours of work are set

Or am I thinking of deliveroo or something

rivegauche · 04-07-2018 1:12pm

CoisFharraige wrote: »

You’ll find that the union’s objective isn’t to separate the pilots or get some of them a good deal whilst excluding others, but more so an attack on Ryanair and MOL.

I judge them by their actions and their action has been to seek to secure preferential holidays and terms for some at the expense of other professional pilots.
If they were pursuing issues like a reasonable 80/20 split between employees/contacted staff from the outset I'd view them differently.

Bob24 · 04-07-2018 1:33pm

rivegauche wrote: »

I judge them by their actions and their action has been to seek to secure preferential holidays and terms for some at the expense of other professional pilots.
If they were pursuing issues like a reasonable 80/20 split between employees/contacted staff from the outset I'd view them differently.

You need to understand that the goal of a union is to defend the interest of its members / FTEs of the company where they operate.

I agree the FTE/contractor ratio is not right, but what exactly do you reckon the union should do about it at this stage? Neither the law nor Ryanair recognises them the role of representing pilots which are self-employed service providers (as per a legal structure designed by Ryanair).

IMO this was key in Ryanair’s decision to recognise unions: they were seeing pilots organising at a pan-European level and regardless of legal status to start challenging management, and while it looked like a weakness recognising unions was a way to fragment the conflict at a national level and reduce the scope to FTEs (you will note that Ryanair never engaged with the pan-European representative group pilots were trying to establish, i.e. they are they ones who closed the door to this type of representation system and chose to go for national unions instead).

Your view that the union is working *against* contractors when they try to get more benefits for FTEs is also a bit strange. Because someone gains something doesn’t mean they are working against others. Otherwise next time you get a promotion or a big pay rise, you would be guilty of seeking personal benefit at the expense of your colleagues in the exact same way you are saying full time Ryanair pilots are seeking a better package at the expense of contractors.

rivegauche · 04-07-2018 1:51pm

Bob24 wrote: »

You need to understand that the goal of a union is to defend the interest of its members / FTEs of the company where they operate.

That is not anywhere near the same thing as the stated aims of the RPG and the aims of the RPG was/is were/are the trojan horse which has been used to introduce the Union whose first strike action will be an attempt to steal first dibs on holidays and bases away from the Professionals with which they share the cockpits of their planes. 126 pilots wouldn't keep all the Irish based planes in the air for a quarter of the year at somewhere approaching 900 hours per year across 50 to 70 planes(not sure of figure) needing 2 pilots in the cockpit.

CoisFharraige · 04-07-2018 1:52pm

Cabin crew have just published their charter of demands following the summit with FORSA in Dublin today. Some very doable things that most airlines offer already. https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0704/976236-ryanair/

IngazZagni · 04-07-2018 2:07pm

rivegauche wrote: »

That is not anywhere near the same thing as the stated aims of the RPG and the aims of the RPG was/is were/are the trojan horse which has been used to introduce the Union whose first strike action will be an attempt to steal first dibs on holidays and bases away from the Professionals with which they share the cockpits of their planes. 126 pilots wouldn't keep all the Irish based planes in the air for a quarter of the year at somewhere approaching 900 hours per year across 50 to 70 planes(not sure of figure) needing 2 pilots in the cockpit.

What exactly is your agenda here?

There are only about 35 planes based in Ireland by the way. 30 of those in Dublin.

What makes you think you have all the inside info? Did you consider that the seniority request could be based on date of entry for working on Ryanair aircraft regardless of contract type?
Just because self employed contractors can't legally ballot why does that make you think they don't support the actions of the rest of their colleagues?

rivegauche · 04-07-2018 2:10pm

Agenda: natural justice.

Have you got an issue with that? Your aggressive response indicates that you do.

IngazZagni · 04-07-2018 2:14pm

rivegauche wrote: »

Agenda: natural justice.

Have you got an issue with that? Your aggressive response indicates that you do.

Absolutely nothing aggressive about it. This is a discussion forum. We sometimes have different opinions otherwise boards wouldn't exist.

What do you mean by natural justice though? There are often different extremes at play. The actions of certain union (French atc for example) and then the other extreme could be Ryanair. Fairness should be in the middle somewhere.

Bob24 · 04-07-2018 2:14pm

rivegauche wrote: »

That is not anywhere near the same thing as the stated aims of the RPG and the aims of the RPG was/is were/are the trojan horse which has been used to introduce the Union whose first strike action will be an attempt to steal first dibs on holidays and bases away from the Professionals with which they share the cockpits of their planes. 126 pilots wouldn't keep all the Irish based planes in the air for a quarter of the year at somewhere approaching 900 hours per year across 50 to 70 planes(not sure of figure) needing 2 pilots in the cockpit.

Rightly or wrongly, Ryanair never accepted to engage with representative groups setup by the pilots and has chosen to only recognise national unions. These are the cards pilots have been dealt with.

Again what should FTE pilots have done differently to please you?

Tenger · 04-07-2018 2:14pm

rivegauche wrote: »

I judge them by their actions and their action has been to seek to secure preferential holidays and terms for some at the expense of other professional pilots..........

I dont believe that the RPG can 'legally' lobby on behalf of contractors.
One of the major aims of recent FR industrial issues is the treatment of contractor pilots/cabin crew. The majority of flight crew there want ALL pilots who fly with FR to be grouped together. Thus the Spanish pilots can request Spanish bases, the Irish can ask for Ireland, the Poles Poland, etc etc

You really seem to think this is a situation where senior pilots want to shaft the new guys. Airlines around the world have a seniority list, its viewed as part of the industry and the most impartial system. It actually encourages experienced crew to stay loyal to their employer.
(Some airlines actually run a seniority list which inverts every other year for holiday selection)

Previously you stated that such a list is against an environment of meritocracy.....have you heard about the Ryanair fuel league tables? Or the cabin crew who dont meet the (only revised upwards) sales targets? This is the type of meritocracy that exists in Ryanair.

rivegauche · 04-07-2018 2:21pm

I am absolutely sure that empty-nest senior pilots in their 50s will be taking all the holidays they want at the times that they want while junior pilots in their 30s end up in far flung places not getting to see their children grow up or being there for them on the key days that they want to be there.

Thus was it ever so with "Seniority".

Bob24 · 04-07-2018 2:24pm

Tenger wrote: »

I dont believe that the RPG can 'legally' lobby on behalf of contractors.

Don’t underestimate the RPG when it comes down to dealing with an airline :-)

But yeah more seriously ... it is more an informal group which can try to organise pilots to pressure the airline, but it doesn’t have anything like the recognised legal representativity a union would have and Ryanair is clearly showing no will to engage with that body.

NH2013 · 04-07-2018 3:21pm

To add a point of clarification, as I understand it the unions are requesting a “Master Seniority List” with all pilots on it, both direct employees and contractors. This will then be used to determine what bases people are assigned and will give clarity to pilots as to when they can expect to get a base of their choice as opposed to the current system of the best mates and buddies of management getting their preferred bases and the others being sent away to Vladivostok on a whim with wives and kids either left behind or lives uprooted.

Not exactly unreasonable to have a clear transparent system, and totally cost neutral as well.

rivegauche · 04-07-2018 3:26pm

NH2013 wrote: »

Not exactly unreasonable to have a clear transparent system, and totally cost neutral as well.

One can't assume that a clear transparent system is not unfair in it's conception and operation and as I said before I fear Ryanair will acquiesce as the cost to them remains unchanged but for younger pilots outside the circle it will be a case of like it or lump it. It can and will be constructed to be transparently unfair.

Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

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