Dublin ranks 3rd in terms of the amount of time spent in cars due to congestion

Beta Ray Bill · 13-02-2019 11:29am #1

Read this in the news this morning.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/report-ranks-dublin-as-one-of-the-worlds-worst-cities-for-commuters-904088.html

Had a check of the Data myself.
http://inrix.com/scorecard/

I think "Impact Rank" is the volume of cars/people in an area, Dublin comes 52nd in this out of 200.

However if you sort by the amount of time an average commuter spends in their car as a result of congestion, Dublin ranks 3rd, with an average of 246 hours per commuter spent in their car every year.

I'm not surprised, there is a war on cars/private transportation in Dublin at the minute. But what the councils don't seem to get is that Irish people like their cars, and are prepared to sit in them, stuck in traffic for 10 days a year! :eek:

We've a hell of a long way to go with regards transport in Dublin.

CrankyHaus · 13-02-2019 11:37am

Things seem to be getting better.

In recent years we've had extension of the Luas (though part of it may be flawed), some improvements of cycle lanes and expansion of bus services beyond the Dublin Bus monopoly. We've a long way to go obviously. Decent park and rides to service those coming in from the commuter belt seems to be something we could improve upon.

CatInABox · 13-02-2019 11:46am

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Things seem to be getting better.

In recent years we've had extension of the Luas (though part of it may be flawed), some improvements of cycle lanes and expansion of bus services beyond the Dublin Bus monopoly. We've a long way to go obviously. Decent park and rides to service those coming in from the commuter belt seems to be something we could improve upon.

Realistically, we'll need the Dart Expansion and the Metrolink to be built before park and rides become viable. Almost all PT in and out of the city is running at capacity, or near enough to it that any increase in passenger numbers will push it over.

No one is going to get out of their car to be left behind on the platform.

CrankyHaus · 13-02-2019 11:58am

I never really take PT at rush hour so I wasn't aware of that but if it's true then definitely greater PT capacity is required.

There are options other than PT though. I know people who drive in from Drogheda on the M1/N1, park at Whitehall and cycle from there. Co-location of Dublin bike stations with such car parks may be something to consider as a complement to more PT.

Beta Ray Bill · 13-02-2019 12:12pm

CatInABox wrote: »

Realistically, we'll need the Dart Expansion and the Metrolink to be built before park and rides become viable. Almost all PT in and out of the city is running at capacity, or near enough to it that any increase in passenger numbers will push it over.

No one is going to get out of their car to be left behind on the platform.

I'd agree with you on that.
I go to work either extra early or a bit late to avoid being crammed into a Dart/Luas

I still think the number of hours spent in a car not moving, is shocking

As CrankyHaus said, things are definitely improving.
The Luas extension is great (or at least up until the part from the Liffey to Stephen Green)
New Signalling system for DART is an improvement (but again there were a number of important elements that were not thought out)

I think though that all the crap with public expenditure given the Childrens hospital mess will mean that all big projects such as: Metro, Further Luas extensions, DART underground, etc will be heavily scrutinized and/or put on hold (or even scrapped)

Idbatterim · 13-02-2019 12:14pm

The absolute definition of a banana republic! The luas extension to bray and a spur further south to Hoover cars off the n11 is needed! Along with Dublin metro and dart underground, also the extension of green line to far side of m50 for another park and ride!

Ideally metro west equivalent and metro south west. But they are god knows how long off. What I outlined above should be in planning now!

Hurrache · 13-02-2019 12:25pm

grahambo wrote: »

I'm not surprised, there is a war on cars/private transportation in Dublin at the minute. But what the councils don't seem to get is that Irish people like their cars, and are prepared to sit in them, stuck in traffic for 10 days a year! :eek:

Doesn't matter if the council "don't get" it, that's not the problem here.

Idbatterim · 13-02-2019 12:30pm

These morons build an entirely car dependent city. Then spend minuscule amounts on proper public transport solutions , actually scratch that , we don’t have a segregated metro here. They won’t get me out of my car for the vast majority of my trips. Bus journeys that are longer than frodos trek to Mordor!

How in gods name does this kip not have twenty four hour bus services and luas should be operating longer too !

CIARAN_BOYLE · 13-02-2019 12:40pm

I work in city centre. I moved my start time to 8am to avoid traffic.

My morning bus can be full in the mornings but usually isn't.

I don't see much more capacity in public transport at rush hour. more people moving their hours from 9-5 would be a good thing.

sharper · 13-02-2019 2:06pm

grahambo wrote: »

I'm not surprised, there is a war on cars/private transportation in Dublin at the minute. But what the councils don't seem to get is that Irish people like their cars, and are prepared to sit in them, stuck in traffic for 10 days a year! :eek:

If there's a war then private cars are winning. Traffic measures meant to improve the total number of people moving about (by prioritising public transport) routinely fail at the last minute in favour of private cars.

Transport capacity for single occupancy vehicles is an unsolvable problem. The more space you allocate the more cards on the road you get.

A lot of people think the financial crisis of 2007 is long over but we're still carrying the weight of having the capital investment slashed to maintain day-to-day expenditure. Even as we inch towards the next crisis we have no real plans or funding for the major improvements needed.

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I work in city centre. I moved my start time to 8am to avoid traffic.

I think the earliest possible Dublin Bus (leaving a bit after 7am) and I find traffic is already very heavy. In some places people would need to be leaving before 6am because 7am-10am and 4pm-7pm seem to be the new peak hours for traffic.

Macha · 13-02-2019 2:29pm

Higher density development. If you don't do that, the rest is an uphill battle.

Beta Ray Bill · 13-02-2019 2:34pm

sharper wrote: »

If there's a war then private cars are winning. Traffic measures meant to improve the total number of people moving about (by prioritising public transport) routinely fail at the last minute in favour of private cars.

Transport capacity for single occupancy vehicles is an unsolvable problem. The more space you allocate the more cards on the road you get.

You're totally right that most of the cars heading into town have only one person in them and it's without a doubt the most inefficient way to do things.
I think for a lot of people though, they're either dropping kids off at school/creche before hand and it's just to much hassle to go home get on a train/bus/luas and then do the whole lot in reverse in the evening.

I think though that those that do NOT have kids to look after first, should be using a motorcycle / bicycle / maybe even a twizy!!!!

But even then there's a problem
Motorbikes / Bicycles both face the problem of parking and thieves
Bicycles have issues with cycle lanes
Motorbikes have a stigma attached to them that they are dangerous.

Twizy would only work if everyone has a twizy

sharper wrote: »

A lot of people think the financial crisis of 2007 is long over but we're still carrying the weight of having the capital investment slashed to maintain day-to-day expenditure. Even as we inch towards the next crisis we have no real plans or funding for the major improvements needed.

Well there's plans.... there's just no money...

sharper wrote: »

I think the earliest possible Dublin Bus (leaving a bit after 7am) and I find traffic is already very heavy. In some places people would need to be leaving before 6am because 7am-10am and 4pm-7pm seem to be the new peak hours for traffic.

Again no money, late night services need to be paid for by someone ya know?

Idbatterim · 13-02-2019 2:55pm

I think though that those that do NOT have kids to look after first, should be using a motorcycle / bicycle / maybe even a twizy!!!!

But even then there's a problem
Motorbikes / Bicycles both face the problem of parking and thieves
Bicycles have issues with cycle lanes
Motorbikes have a stigma attached to them that they are dangerous.

Its not the motorbikes that are dangerous! You could be the best motorbike driver, do you drive on Dublins roads everyday with the morons I do? Not a chance I'd put myself my life at the mercy of the said morons!

Idbatterim · 13-02-2019 3:08pm

Macha wrote: »

Higher density development. If you don't do that, the rest is an uphill battle.

totally agree, build on Irish glass bottle site and possibly even the port, can house hundreds of thousands and they can walk or cycle to work! Get them out of house shares in the suburbs and free them up for families!

Stephen15 · 13-02-2019 3:16pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

The absolute definition of a banana republic! The luas extension to bray and a spur further south to Hoover cars off the n11 is needed! Along with Dublin metro and dart underground, also the extension of green line to far side of m50 for another park and ride!

Ideally metro west equivalent and metro south west. But they are god knows how long off. What I outlined above should be in planning now!

Extending the green line is not going to work until the Metro is built and the line between Charlemont and Sandyford is upgraded to Metro as the Green line is currently at capacity.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 13-02-2019 3:41pm

Macha wrote: »

Higher density development. If you don't do that, the rest is an uphill battle.

There’s no convincing Irish people to live in apartments long term. You just have to look at the discussions on buying apartments when that happens

Idbatterim · 13-02-2019 3:47pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

There’s no convincing Irish people to live in apartments long term. You just have to look at the discussions on buying apartments when that happens

yes but we have a large "young" population. They would gladly live in city centre in compact space that was there own, if it was in any way reasonably affordable, which it currently isnt with the building "standards" we currently have. Funny how they are so concerned with size and light, yet noise isnt even a consideration :rolleyes:

techdiver · 13-02-2019 3:50pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

There’s no convincing Irish people to live in apartments long term. You just have to look at the discussions on buying apartments when that happens

I don't think you have to even convince people to live in apartments long term per se. Younger people will happily live in apartments closer to city centres thus freeing up 3 and 4 bed house shares for families.

This is one way of easing pressure on housing.

ExoPolitic · 13-02-2019 4:04pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

totally agree, build on Irish glass bottle site and possibly even the port, can house hundreds of thousands and they can walk or cycle to work! Get them out of house shares in the suburbs and free them up for families!

The higher the density of people, the more realistic it becomes to have a better transport network. There's no point building a metro system if every stop only has a small catchment of people living in the area. Dublin is too sprawled out to support a better metro. Unless we build a metro and designate areas for redevelopment around it for high density, it would be unsustainable.

sharper · 13-02-2019 4:43pm

grahambo wrote: »

Again no money, late night services need to be paid for by someone ya know?

They sure do though in case what I was thinking was that the time span of peak traffic is already so wide people have a limited ability to avoid it via changing their working hours.

It's still insane the amount of traffic generated by schools being open. A proper schoolbus transport system similar to the US would likely help a lot.

Macha · 13-02-2019 5:39pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

There’s no convincing Irish people to live in apartments long term. You just have to look at the discussions on buying apartments when that happens

Sadly true. If you ask me if I'd rather live in decent sized, well designed apartment with his amenities nearby like parks etc or spend 2+ hours a day commuting, plus all the additional associated costs including extra childcare, possible second car etc, I think it's a no brainer.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 13-02-2019 6:59pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

yes but we have a large "young" population. They would gladly live in city centre in compact space that was there own, if it was in any way reasonably affordable, which it currently isnt with the building "standards" we currently have.

That’s the rental market. And in fact a lot of people do of course live in the centre in apartments, a lot of them immigrants.

Funny how they are so concerned with size and light, yet noise isnt even a consideration :rolleyes:

Who is the “we” here.

Calina · 13-02-2019 7:32pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

yes but we have a large "young" population. They would gladly live in city centre in compact space that was there own, if it was in any way reasonably affordable, which it currently isnt with the building "standards" we currently have. Funny how they are so concerned with size and light, yet noise isnt even a consideration :rolleyes:

What we build now is too compact, even for young people. Hence people don’t want to live in apartments in Dublin.

Beta Ray Bill · 14-02-2019 12:44pm

Calina wrote: »

What we build now is too compact, even for young people. Hence people don’t want to live in apartments in Dublin.

Ding Ding!!!

Exactly right.
People don't want to live in a little box. which is what a lot of apartments in town are.

Get anything moderately sized and your talking a price that would be close enough to the price of a 3 bed Semi-D.

None of these people grew up in apartments, so why the hell would they buy one when they could live in a house for the near enough the same price.

punisher5112 · 14-02-2019 12:53pm

What's needed is more buses, more trains(much faster as in better tracks and points), Luas and something done with the M50.

We need to look seriously at why buses are so slow and getting held up so badly.

We need 24hour clearways which need enforcement, yellow box enforcement, bus lane enforcement with much bigger fines, bus only streets and bus only turns enforcement (all this could be CCTV operation and no need for Garda which there are none around anyway),

Double red lines like in the UK where you can't load or unload which you are entitled to do on double yellow lines for 30 minutes.

Bus cage(bus stops) enforcement where you receive fine and points and a big one at that.

The amount of complete tools I come across daily and numerous times where they block bus stops and park for hours in some and this is even in the city centre which is ridiculous.

We need lights that give priority to buses and the ones in rathmines that are there already and on but do nothing. These should be utilised to give buses space and to get ahead so as they have a clear run.

Traffic is only going one way and it's getting worse all the time.

Many manyore things can and really should be done.

sharper · 14-02-2019 12:59pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

We need 24hour clearways which need enforcement, yellow box enforcement, bus lane enforcement with much bigger fines, bus only streets and bus only turns enforcement (all this could be CCTV operation and no need for Garda which there are none around anyway),

Waiting at a bus stop on the quays is an exercise in anger management. Watching the number of cars drive down the bus lane and even worse, the number of cars that enter the yellow box with nowhere to go and block and the bus lane for a full light cycle is hard to deal with when everything moves so slowly overall.

At this point a garda twitter account you could tweet pictures of this to and have some enforcement happen would at least be something which could be implemented cheaply (though won't ever happen due to privacy and so on)

facehugger99 · 14-02-2019 1:13pm

Plenty of solutions being thrown around but they all cost money.

Our Capital investment is still way below what it should be - it's never recovered fully from the last recession. Overruns like the Children's Hospital don't really help and the public sector unions seem to have first dibs on any revenue increases.

I can't really see anything improving - there seems to be a huge amount of commercial development currently on-going in places like the IFSC - it's good to see in some ways but it's only going to put more strain on the existing infrastructure which is already over-capacity.

punisher5112 · 14-02-2019 7:11pm

This is something that needs fixing and fast.

There is no need for the way things are going and it's quite frankly nowhere fast at all.

Idbatterim · 14-02-2019 7:16pm

Who is the “we” here.

the morons in planning...

Idbatterim · 14-02-2019 7:18pm

Calina wrote: »

What we build now is too compact, even for young people. Hence people don’t want to live in apartments in Dublin.

well the minimum sizes here a lot more generous than what standards and britain and germany mandate to the best of my knowledge. Of course what would that shower of fools know compared to a rock on the edge of europe, totally against urban living and that has one "city"...

Idbatterim · 14-02-2019 7:21pm

facehugger99 wrote: »

Plenty of solutions being thrown around but they all cost money.

Our Capital investment is still way below what it should be - it's never recovered fully from the last recession. Overruns like the Children's Hospital don't really help and the public sector unions seem to have first dibs on any revenue increases.

I can't really see anything improving - there seems to be a huge amount of commercial development currently on-going in places like the IFSC - it's good to see in some ways but it's only going to put more strain on the existing infrastructure which is already over-capacity.

what is your point about them costing money? they do cost money, the total lack of investment has us in this state. Other countries just invest in it as a matter of course. Here? LOL! if its not an increase on welfare, its wasted :rolleyes:

XPS_Zero · 14-02-2019 9:45pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

These morons build an entirely car dependent city. Then spend minuscule amounts on proper public transport solutions , actually scratch that , we don’t have a segregated metro here. They won’t get me out of my car for the vast majority of my trips. Bus journeys that are longer than frodos trek to Mordor!

How in gods name does this kip not have twenty four hour bus services and luas should be operating longer too !

The morons who built it were elected by millions of morons with votes who decided:

-They wanted a city that went OUT instead of up because a tiny garden is worth spending 2 hours on a commute to work rather than going downstairs, around the corner and jumping on a subway that comes every 3 minutes...or they never even thought about that exchange just wanted the garden not thinking through the consequences. This is one of the central things holding up decent PT in Ireland.

-For most of the Tiger era, demanded tax cuts over infrastructure spending consistently to the point where no opposition party was offering the option of using the surplus for long term projects instead of extra 10ers on welfare and tax cuts. Thankfully the govt did the NDP and T21 anyway but nowhere near as much as would have happened with pubic support for long term thinking. This aspect has changed thankfully, and now the public supports public service improvements over tax cuts nearly 2:1 but it's very late in the day for this shift and took a huge recession for people to alter their thinking to the long term.
Unfortunatly a huge amount of new PS spending gets hoovered up in pay hikes (it's the main reason why, no matter how much money they poured into the HSE after M.Martins reforms, front line services didn't get much better). Instead of attacking the cost of living we just raise their wages like a dog chasing it's tail who will never catch it. 2/3 of the new spending since the recession ended have gone to PS wages and they are demanding we make that worse.

-Protested HYSTERICALLY and objected via the planning laws every time a bus lane or tunnel or any major transport change was mooted or proposed. You can't even move a bus route at the end to straighten it out in this country without hysterics in the Irish Times about how there are 2 blind passengers out of the 147,000 on that route who will have to walk an extra 12ft.

-Those outside Dublin have a massive massive chip on their shoulder and would rather spend the cost of an Aer Lingus flight to Moscow per passenger on a barely used line in Ballybrophy rather than support more money going into a Metro in Dublin because "dey get everytin in Dublin".

I'm all for being critical of political leaders but never forget they don't come from thin air and their opinions and actions are based on the climate of public support.

defrule · 17-02-2019 3:21am

Are these any companies here that specialise in building apartments? Seems like everyone is building office space these days.

con___manx1 · 17-02-2019 4:26am

Idbatterim wrote: »

These morons build an entirely car dependent city. Then spend minuscule amounts on proper public transport solutions , actually scratch that , we don’t have a segregated metro here. They won’t get me out of my car for the vast majority of my trips. Bus journeys that are longer than frodos trek to Mordor!

How in gods name does this kip not have twenty four hour bus services and luas should be operating longer too !

Are you for real? Dublin was built before cars were even a thing. Rome was second on the list also built before cars. There are very few citys with twenty four hour bus or train services. New york is the only city iv been to that has that service and iv been to quite a few citys.

Idbatterim · 28-02-2019 11:26am

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/innovation/could-new-software-solve-dublin-s-traffic-problem-1.3805124?mode=amp

Could do with this new traffic management system here!

LeChienMefiant · 28-02-2019 4:23pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/innovation/could-new-software-solve-dublin-s-traffic-problem-1.3805124?mode=amp

Could do with this new traffic management system here!

No mention of pedestrians or cyclists. As for this...

“Dublin’s an old city, with narrow streets, so it’s very difficult in terms of moving traffic efficiently around, unless you start widening streets, which isn’t really an option,” Julia Ann Corkery told The Irish Times. Ms Corkery is associate director on EY’s government and infrastructure advisory team, and reckons that Dublin could scoop the same benefits as Portland if it applies Surtrac to the city’s traffic management system.

The best way of moving traffic efficiently around the city is to eliminate private car usage. I saw a figure of 1.2 persons per car recently from a Cork study, this is a scandalous waste.

cdaly_ · 01-03-2019 11:33am

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

No mention of pedestrians or cyclists.

The best way of moving traffic efficiently around the city is to eliminate private car usage. I saw a figure of 1.2 persons per car recently from a Cork study, this is a scandalous waste.

EY's government and infrastructure advisory team wrote:

could be more beneficial, overall, than more schemes to try and tempt or bully drivers out of their cars.

I think this illustrates EY's government and infrastructure advisory team's primary focus.

LeChienMefiant · 01-03-2019 11:58am

EYs primary focus of course is to make money. The language is emotive, but it's hard to empathise with any argument for unfettered private motor traffic in urban areas. Hopefully the tide of public opinion will shift, but the vocal opposition to infrastructure projects in South and West Dublin is disheartening. We're going to be in some mess in ten years time.

The Enbalmer · 01-03-2019 12:12pm

LeChienMefiant wrote:

The best way of moving traffic efficiently around the city is to eliminate private car usage. I saw a figure of 1.2 persons per car recently from a Cork study, this is a scandalous waste.

I paid for my car,the tax,the insurance,the petrol,the NCT and the tolls.

I'll drive it to work BY MYSELF because I've paid for that right.

You think busses full of people wielding bus passes is an efficient use of resources?

If I want to spend an hour cooped up every morning with a bunch of splattering,coughing bums then I'll take the bus.

If I want a 30 minute spin to work by MYSELF with the radio on I'll drive my car.

And cyclists can piss off too..they whinge looking for cycle lanes all over the city then refuse to use the bloody things once they're built.

LeChienMefiant · 01-03-2019 12:14pm

The Enbalmer wrote: »

I paid for my car,the tax,the insurance,the petrol,the NCT and the tolls.

You didn't pay for the road infrastructure.

magicbastarder · 01-03-2019 12:28pm

The Enbalmer wrote: »

I'll drive it to work BY MYSELF because I've paid for that right.

um. if you've paid for it, it's not a right.

Shai · 01-03-2019 12:34pm

The Enbalmer wrote: »

I paid for my car,the tax,the insurance,the petrol,the NCT and the tolls.

You paid for a vehicle and the fees and costs mandated to legally operate said vehicle. However, the spaces said vehicle can be legally operated can be restricted just fine.

The Enbalmer · 01-03-2019 1:06pm

Shai wrote:

You paid for a vehicle and the fees and costs mandated to legally operate said vehicle. However, the spaces said vehicle can be legally operated can be restricted just fine.

Not by people on boards they can't

The Enbalmer · 01-03-2019 1:07pm

LeChienMefiant wrote:

You didn't pay for the road infrastructure.

41% Income tax for the last 26 years says otherwise.

Idbatterim · 01-03-2019 1:10pm

How much do motorists contribute to the exchequer and how much is spent on road building and maintenance each year?

magicbastarder · 01-03-2019 1:10pm

The Enbalmer wrote: »

Not by people on boards they can't

i suspect that claim was never made so it's just a straw man.

i'm bemused by your comment that buses seem to 'be full of people wielding bus passes' are less efficient than cars. for a bus to be a less efficient use of road space than an average private car, it has to have less than two passengers on board.

Qrt · 01-03-2019 1:11pm

The Enbalmer wrote: »

And cyclists can piss off too..they whinge looking for cycle lanes all over the city then refuse to use the bloody things once they're built.

If I used most of the cycle lanes where I live, I’d be long dead. So I think I’ll use them with caution until they’re actually done right.

Idbatterim · 01-03-2019 1:11pm

The Enbalmer wrote: »

41% Income tax for the last 26 years says otherwise.

I think quoting the marginal rate of over 50% is even more stark! Doesn’t matter whether they call it income tax or tooth fairy tax. Fifty percent thieves off at the laughably low marginal rate by those rats!

sharper · 01-03-2019 1:37pm

The Enbalmer wrote: »

You think busses full of people wielding bus passes is an efficient use of resources?

https://humantransit.org/2012/09/the-photo-that-explains-almost-everything.html

6a00d83454714d69e2017d3c37d8ac970c-800wi

The next time you're sitting in traffic think about what it would be like if even if 50 people in front of you got on a bus instead. When you're waiting behind a bus or see a bus passing by in the bus lane imagine what it would be like for traffic if those 100 people each got into their own car instead.

You absolutely can drive your own car but it's the least efficient form of transport and should always be lower priority when space is limited.

Amirani · 01-03-2019 1:40pm

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

You didn't pay for the road infrastructure.

They also haven't paid the full cost of their pollution.

The Enbalmer · 01-03-2019 3:00pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

How much do motorists contribute to the exchequer and how much is spent on road building and maintenance each year?

What do cyclists contribute?

Absolutely nothing..they don't have to have insurance or have to pass any kind of test yet they demand the lions share of transport ugrades so they can refuse to use it,citing that cycle lanes are "too dangerous" .

Dublin ranks 3rd in terms of the amount of time spent in cars due to congestion

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