Anti-vaxxers

CelticRambler · 16-05-2019 11:33am

waxmoth wrote: »

Less powerful but more effective regulatory bodies would be better

Define "effective" - because one man's effective is another man's obstruction. The anti-vaxx movement is just one high-profile sign of the general public's demand for products and policies that are frequently contradictory.

There are effective regulatory bodies in many states and political jurisdictions, but what happens when they decide that a particular drug isn't worth the plastic it's packaged in? Suddenly you get a campaign group on facebook slamming the government for not forcing the relevant health service to make that particular drug available for the very small number of patients that might - might - benefit from it, usually followed by a crowd-funding campaign to send some of them off to a jurisdiction where there's very iffy regulation (yeah, looking at you, Uncle Sam :P )

Then we get those same groups complaining that Big Pharma is forcing its unregulated medicines on an innocent population. Regulators can't win, but they can try to lay down reasonable guidelines for medicines and protocols used in their jurisdiction. In that context, we're very well served here in the EU by our regulators.

waxmoth · 16-05-2019 11:53pm

jh79 wrote: »

The reason for post approval studies is the larger number of doses means rarer events will be caught.

If your doing clinical trials with 100s of thousands well its practically on the market anyways.

For med cannabis, thc/cbd products can not be blinded properly so their effectiveness will never be known and cbd only products have shown limited benefits with numerous side effects. So why allow them even under supervision? It seems to me that you are applying a different standard to cannabis which is strange considering how little medical benefit cbd/thc has.

If there was a known safety concern, as there was with Dengue vaccine, then it should have been addressed before approval.

Scott Halstead, who studies dengue at the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences in Bethesda, Maryland, argued that dengue vaccines could have the same effect, and warned that Dengvaxia should not be given to children never infected with dengue. But a vaccine panel at the World Health Organization (WHO) concluded in 2016 that Dengvaxia was safe for children aged 9 and older.
Halstead's concerns proved valid. In November 2017, Sanofi Pasteur announced that the vaccine could indeed exacerbate cases of dengue in children never previously infected, and the Philippines halted the campaign immediately. (WHO now recommends the vaccine be used only after a test to be sure children have had at least one brush with dengue.)

CBD has already been approved by the FDA for Dravets syndrome and proprietary forms of THC are also approved for other indications. CBD in particular has very useful properties as an immunomodulator and anti-inflammatory and it is unlikely to become mandatory. Ethanol has widespread approval despite severe (dose-dependent) side effects.

jh79 · 17-05-2019 12:43am

waxmoth wrote: »

If there was a known safety concern, as there was with Dengue vaccine, then it should have been addressed before approval.
CBD has already been approved by the FDA for Dravets syndrome and proprietary forms of THC are also approved for other indications. CBD in particular has very useful properties as an immunomodulator and anti-inflammatory and it is unlikely to become mandatory. Ethanol has widespread approval despite severe (dose-dependent) side effects.

But your claim is that effectiveness and side effects should be determined prior to use.

In the case of Vera Twomey, her daughter is taking thc/cbd which has not been tested for Dravets and has no formal long term toxicity studies available.

Your support of her use of cannabis as medicine contradicts the standards you claim medicine should meet. You're against post approval studies but ok with untested thc/cbd "under supervision". It doesn't add up.

Also while a group of compounds can have similar modes of action they can also have different side effects and levels of effectiveness.

FDA approval for GW pharma specific CBD compound does not mean all CBD based formulations have the same benefits and risks.

Harry Palmr · 05-06-2019 6:15pm

and this is the end result for one family.

https://www.thejournal.ie/13-month-old-admitted-to-intensive-care-after-were-parents-influenced-by-anti-vaccine-material-online-4668594-Jun2019/

PARENTS OF A 13-month-old boy have admitted to being “unduly” influenced by anti-vaccine information on social media after their son ended up in the intensive care unit of University Hospital Galway with a preventable disease.

The boy had not received his childhood vaccinations because his parents were concerned about a potential link between the MMR vaccine and autism spectrum disorder after seeing reports on social media.

The parents told UHG staff that they were keen to share their experience to help provide a “more balanced argument on social media, which can often be dominated by anti-vaccine material”.
A report by the Health Protection Surveillance Centre (HPSC) details that the boy presented to the resuscitation area in the emergency department in significant respiratory distress. It also notes that he was a previously well child without significant past medical history, not on any medications.
The boy had been infected with a non-typable Haemophilus influenza strain which can cause serious infection in humans, particularly children.

Igotadose · 08-06-2019 10:50am

Anti-vax gift keeps giving. Over 1000 cases in the US now. Most in the last 25 years, and it's only June

https://gizmodo.com/cdc-says-measles-cases-in-u-s-have-now-reached-over-1-1835288447

Guy:Incognito · 08-06-2019 10:58am

Behind the bastards did a good 3 parter on the anti vaxx movement.

But I'm sure certain people will just say hes a big pharma shill or some other ****.

https://www.behindthebastards.com/podcasts/part-one-the-birth-of-the-anti-vaccine-movement.htm

Igotadose · 13-06-2019 2:00pm

Apparently Jenny McCarthy's old hat, now Jessica Biel (whoever she is) is the new starlet-vaccine-denier, hanging around with loony Kennedy Jr.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/06/13/entertainment/jessica-biel-vaccines/index.html

Speaking of Kennedy Jr, here's a two-part destruction of Kennedy's nonsense about Gardasil: Part 1 and Part 2

ancapailldorcha · 13-06-2019 2:05pm

Igotadose wrote: »

Apparently Jenny McCarthy's old hat, now Jessica Biel (whoever she is) is the new starlet-vaccine-denier, hanging around with loony Kennedy Jr.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/06/13/entertainment/jessica-biel-vaccines/index.html

Speaking of Kennedy Jr, here's a two-part destruction of Kennedy's nonsense about Gardasil: Part 1 and Part 2

She was in the worst Blade film and the remake of the Texas Chainsaw Massacre so clearly we should be ignoring the scientists and doctors.

Capt'n Midnight · 13-06-2019 6:41pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

She was in the worst Blade film and the remake of the Texas Chainsaw Massacre so clearly we should be ignoring the scientists and doctors.

And she didn't take the opportunity to name her new child Batmo.

batgoat · 14-06-2019 4:13am

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

She was in the worst Blade film and the remake of the Texas Chainsaw Massacre so clearly we should be ignoring the scientists and doctors.

In fairness, great in The Sinner... But god knows why these people think their opinions on the subject are of any value...

Brian? · 14-06-2019 6:30am

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

She was in the worst Blade film and the remake of the Texas Chainsaw Massacre so clearly we should be ignoring the scientists and doctors.

Wasn't she Mr Peanutbutters ex wife in Bojack Horseman?

ancapailldorcha · 14-06-2019 7:33am

batgoat wrote: »

In fairness, great in The Sinner... But god knows why these people think their opinions on the subject are of any value...

In fairness, B nobody can be an expert on everything. Or even one thing based on how every aspect of society seems to be getting ever more complex. It's this idea that scientists and doctors are in cahoots with big Pharma, whatever that is, and that the biggest morons and scam artists are the only ones talking sense that I don't understand.

The cynic in me reckons Biel is just looking for attention. She's not even a C-lister any more.

hcf500 · 14-06-2019 8:58am

I did some research over the last few weeks in my spare time and I would have to side with the pro vaxxers. There is plenty evedince available to show that vaccination is safe.
Couldn't find anything on Jessica Biel but if you look into most of these anti vaxxers you will find that they are pro trump

jackboy · 14-06-2019 9:08am

waxmoth wrote: »

Tamiflu/oseltamivir is a very good example of regulatory failure and how an ineffective drug can gain widespread acceptance (including WHO approval). When the full clinical data was eventually procured the producers claims were found not to be upheld. The reduction in duration of symptoms in adults is ~16hrs (from 7 to 6.3 days) and there are significant side effects.
https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD008965.pub4/media/CDSR/CD008965/CD008965.pdf

If this is true then why is Tamiflu still on the market and being prescribed by doctors. Governments have stockpiles of this and when the next flu pandemic hits there will be massive demand for this.

If the clinical data was found to be not reliable then this means that all the pharma regulatory bodies worldwide are corrupt, in that they are allowing a known ineffective drug to remain on the market. Is this realistic?

Ipso · 14-06-2019 3:36pm

hcf500 wrote: »

I did some research over the last few weeks in my spare time and I would have to side with the pro vaxxers. There is plenty evedince available to show that vaccination is safe.
Couldn't find anything on Jessica Biel but if you look into most of these anti vaxxers you will find that they are pro trump

Robert de Niro is a high profile anti vaxxer and is not pro Trump. Then there’s RFK jr, and he has aligned with two cults (scientology and the nation of islam on the issue). If you want to make a dig at Trump supporters then try something else because frankly liberalism is infested with this type of woo nonsense.
The anti fact crowd seem to fall into a couple areas; conservatives seem to be based on anti authority or anti science and liberals anti corporation and their idea of what natural should be.

TheIrishGrover · 14-06-2019 3:39pm

Ipso wrote: »

Robert de Niro is a high profile anti vaxxer .....

Aw maaaan. I used to like DeNiro..... Dammit

Dohnjoe · 14-06-2019 4:00pm

Ipso wrote: »

Robert de Niro is a high profile anti vaxxer and is not pro Trump. Then there’s RFK jr, and he has aligned with two cults (scientology and the nation of islam on the issue). If you want to make a dig at Trump supporters then try something else because frankly liberalism is infested with this type of woo nonsense.
The anti fact crowd seem to fall into a couple areas; conservatives seem to be based on anti authority or anti science and liberals anti corporation and their idea of what natural should be.

AKA the fringes on both sides of the political spectrum. United by their tendencies to get behind utter nonsense.

is_that_so · 14-06-2019 4:14pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

In fairness, B nobody can be an expert on everything. Or even one thing based on how every aspect of society seems to be getting ever more complex. It's this idea that scientists and doctors are in cahoots with big Pharma, whatever that is, and that the biggest morons and scam artists are the only ones talking sense that I don't understand.

The cynic in me reckons Biel is just looking for attention. She's not even a C-lister any more.

Rich people , especially in entertainment, often feel they have to put their name to something noble. Some of them have the smarts to do so very well but many just have instant recognition, well-followed social media accounts and a sense that they should be heard.

Ipso · 14-06-2019 4:40pm

is_that_so wrote: »

Rich people , especially in entertainment, often feel they have to put their name to something noble. Some of them have the smarts to do so very well but many just have instant recognition, well-followed social media accounts and a sense that they should be heard.

I'll take a wild guess that she is also a fan of wellness and treating the whole person.

is_that_so · 14-06-2019 4:48pm

Ipso wrote: »

I'll take a wild guess that she is also a fan of wellness and treating the whole person.

Doesn't eat dairy or gluten and does yoga. Most of her other charitable work is non-controversial.

ohnonotgmail · 14-06-2019 4:51pm

It seems she isnt actually anti-vax after all. https://www.theguardian.com/film/2019/jun/13/jessica-biel-joins-campaign-against-vaccination-law

Her opposition to the bill is due to a restriction on medical exemptions it would oppose.

is_that_so · 14-06-2019 4:53pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

It seems she isnt actually anti-vax after all. https://www.theguardian.com/film/2019/jun/13/jessica-biel-joins-campaign-against-vaccination-law

Her opposition to the bill is due to a restriction on medical exemptions it would oppose.

From that article - She declined to vaccinate her son in 2015, so at best she seems to favour uninformed choice. Optics of supporting an anti-vaxxer not exactly good.

Seth Brundle · 14-06-2019 7:51pm

is_that_so wrote: »

Rich people , especially in entertainment, often feel they have to put their name to something noble. Some of them have the smarts to do so very well but many just have instant recognition, well-followed social media accounts and a sense that they should be heard.

I'm reminded of Brass Eye now

Igotadose · 23-07-2019 3:00pm

Big study showing linkage between genetics and autism, analyzed here: https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/genetics-cause-autism-study-vaccines/

”the current study results provide the strongest evidence to our knowledge to date that the majority of risk for autism spectrum disorders is from genetic factors,” said a team led by Sven Sandin, an epidemiological researcher at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden."

alaimacerc · 29-07-2019 8:41pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I'm reminded of Brass Eye now

Reminded of Brass Eye and The Day Today every day. Tonight's C4 News featured discussion of the proposition that "sterling gets punched in the face!"

Igotadose · 14-08-2019 8:32pm

Woman that contracted measles on flight from NYC->Israel has died. Anti-vax gift keeps giving

https://www.timesofisrael.com/el-al-flight-attendant-dies-4-months-after-contracting-measles-on-plane-from-ny/

1022 cases up to June, 2019. All-time highest since eradication in 2000.

Igotadose · 23-08-2019 9:57am

CA state senator, who is sponsoring legislation to reduce vaccine exemptions, attacked by an anti-vaxx loon. Funny how the fringe types in the US are always violent.
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-08-21/richard-pan-confronted-anti-vaccine-activist

Fortunately this didn't end up as these things so often do in the US, with firearm use.

fryup · 23-08-2019 10:04am

mikeecho wrote: »

I know a few anti vaxers, the same few have views on Monsanto /coca cola etc

A few of them have what I consider poor levels of education, ie home schooled (their parents were hippies)

The others. ... I honestly believe that they have either mental deficiencies or are easily lead by the fantastic.

yep, its those new age hippy types that are spearheading this lunacy, they've got it in for 5g as well...they're convinced its all mind control:rolleyes:

Ecce No Homo · 23-08-2019 10:17am

tigger123 wrote: »

It's an excellent way to tackle it: 'If you're going to put the population of the school at risk, you're not welcome.'

If all the other children are vaccinated then how are you putting them at risk by letting your unvaccinated child go to the same school? Isn't the whole point of vaccines that they vaccinate the child from an illness?

ohnonotgmail · 23-08-2019 10:50am

Ecce No Homo wrote: »

If all the other children are vaccinated then how are you putting them at risk by letting your unvaccinated child go to the same school? Isn't the whole point of vaccines that they vaccinate the child from an illness?

Some children cannot receive vaccination due to other medical conditions. vaccines are not 100% efficacious. If you have too many unvaccinated children then chances of an outbreak massively increase.

Roger Hassenforder · 23-08-2019 11:30am

Ecce No Homo wrote: »

If all the other children are vaccinated then how are you putting them at risk by letting your unvaccinated child go to the same school? Isn't the whole point of vaccines that they vaccinate the child from an illness?

Vaccination/epidemiology effificacy is more effectively measured at a population level, rather than individual. Overall herd immunity increases as the % individuals vaccinated increases, allowing individuals derive protection from the herd, but this is lowered as the ratio vaccinated v unvaccinated decreases.

knipex · 23-08-2019 2:48pm

Ecce No Homo wrote: »

If all the other children are vaccinated then how are you putting them at risk by letting your unvaccinated child go to the same school? Isn't the whole point of vaccines that they vaccinate the child from an illness?

The efficacy of vaccines varies from person to person. For example vaccines give me limited and short term protection of Hep B, My wife for some reason despite multiple inoculations has no resistance to measles.

Neither of us knew that until we have to get tested for work related issues.

Plus not all children CAN be vaccinated.. Some children has immune issues or other health issues that means they cannot be vaccinated.

To eliminate pathogens (like we achieved with Smallpox and to a lesser extent polio) you need to achieve herd immunity so the virus no longer can maintain a reservoir within the population. Once you achieve that they the need for vaccination is eliminated..

Igotadose · 14-09-2019 2:59pm

Anti-vaxxers staying classy as always. Throwing menstrual cups of blood at the California Senate as it debates new regs to prevent bogus medical exemptions. Violence is an anti-vaxxer thing it seems.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/09/anti-vaccine-protester-menstrual-cup-blood-california-senate.html

martingriff · 14-09-2019 7:28pm

Igotadose wrote: »

Anti-vaxxers staying classy as always. Throwing menstrual cups of blood at the California Senate as it debates new regs to prevent bogus medical exemptions. Violence is an anti-vaxxer thing it seems.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/09/anti-vaccine-protester-menstrual-cup-blood-california-senate.html

This is for the dead babies!!! Crazy. On an unrelated matter it said they went until they had all work done and then adjourned for the year!!!!

hcf500 · 24-09-2019 2:25pm

Theres a major class action coming up in the high court in a few weeks. Lets see how quiet this thread gets when the vaccine manufacturer loses!

Seth Brundle · 24-09-2019 2:29pm

hcf500 wrote: »

Theres a major class action coming up in the high court in a few weeks. Lets see how quiet this thread gets when the vaccine manufacturer loses!

A class action?
I thought GDPR was the only legislation here that allowed a type of class action.

CramCycle · 24-09-2019 2:40pm

hcf500 wrote: »

Theres a major class action coming up in the high court in a few weeks. Lets see how quiet this thread gets when the vaccine manufacturer loses!

Thanks for the links. :rolleyes:

hcf500 · 24-09-2019 3:00pm

CramCycle wrote: »

Thanks for the links. :rolleyes:

There you go

ohnonotgmail · 24-09-2019 3:02pm

hcf500 wrote: »

Theres a major class action coming up in the high court in a few weeks. Lets see how quiet this thread gets when the vaccine manufacturer loses!

hcf500 wrote: »

There you go

Not a class action. because we dont have those in ireland.

hcf500 · 24-09-2019 3:12pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Not a class action. because we dont have those in ireland.

OK, not a class action but very similar! Having read more about it, it is a "test case". The outcome of that case will mostly determine the outcome of the following cases? Apparently they are almost certain to win the case. Is it the gov or gsk that will have to pay though? Both are being sued.

copeyhagen · 24-09-2019 3:21pm

hcf500 wrote: »

OK, not a class action but very similar! Having read more about it, it is a "test case". The outcome of that case will mostly determine the outcome of the following cases? Apparently they are almost certain to win the case. Is it the gov or gsk that will have to pay though? Both are being sued.

what's your opinion on vaccinations?

hcf500 · 24-09-2019 3:24pm

copeyhagen wrote: »

what's your opinion on vaccinations?

Vaccines are great but when they go wrong, there needs to be accountability and victims need to be taken care of. Is it acceptable to talk about the negative impact some vaccines have on some people?

Dohnjoe · 24-09-2019 3:34pm

hcf500 wrote: »

Vaccines are great but when they go wrong, there needs to be accountability and victims need to be taken care of. Is it acceptable to talk about the negative impact some vaccines have on some people?

Of course, but due to the number of anti-vaxxers disguising themselves as "just concerned about vaccine safety" we get a lot of bull**** thrown into any case

Nothing is 100%, not even vaccines. Unfortunately there are those who use any incidents as a fulcrum to wedge in their anti-vaxx or vaccine doubting narratives.

Context is very important.

CramCycle · 24-09-2019 3:47pm

hcf500 wrote: »

OK, not a class action but very similar! Having read more about it, it is a "test case". The outcome of that case will mostly determine the outcome of the following cases? Apparently they are almost certain to win the case. Is it the gov or gsk that will have to pay though? Both are being sued.

Government, they indemnified GSK. Even the article states this. HPRA claims they knew but that these were in line with normal rates of reactions for this vaccine, which is an odd statement for one that has not completed trials.

Government are fighting it as there are 80 cases after this one, if they admit in one, they admit in all.

Not sure why this case would make the thread quiet.

hcf500 · 24-09-2019 3:56pm

CramCycle wrote: »

Government, they indemnified GSK. Even the article states this. HPRA claims they knew but that these were in line with normal rates of reactions for this vaccine, which is an odd statement for one that has not completed trials.

Government are fighting it as there are 80 cases after this one, if they admit in one, they admit in all.

Not sure why this case would make the thread quiet.

This thread receives updates every few weeks about someone that has been affected negatively because of not having their vaccines. Some people here seem to thrive off of these stories, the anti vax gift to them. I cant imagine they would be very quick to post news about a vaccine manufacturer losing a case in court though!

Varta · 24-09-2019 4:15pm

Doctors who suspect that a patient has been affected by the swine flu vaccine are seeking batch numbers. This is very curious. Is there a suspicion that some batches of the vaccine were problematic? If it turns out that this vaccine was dodgy, the manufacturer should be crucified, because by selling bad vaccines they do more harm to vaccine campaigns than anti-vaxxers ever could.

hcf500 · 24-09-2019 4:24pm

Varta wrote: »

Doctors who suspect that a patient has been affected by the swine flu vaccine are seeking batch numbers. This is very curious. Is there a suspicion that some batches of the vaccine were problematic? If it turns out that this vaccine was dodgy, the manufacturer should be crucified, because by selling bad vaccines they do more harm to vaccine campaigns than anti-vaxxers ever could.

Where did you hear that? Don't doctors already have the batch numbers for the vaccines they administered?

Brian? · 24-09-2019 4:35pm

hcf500 wrote: »

CramCycle wrote: »

Thanks for the links. :rolleyes:

There you go

Mistakes were made with the swine flu vaccine process. It's already been admitted.

Varta · 24-09-2019 4:37pm

hcf500 wrote: »

Where did you hear that? Don't doctors already have the batch numbers for the vaccines they administered?

They do indeed. I'm referring to consultants seeking the batch numbers from the medic who administered the vaccine. There is something not right about this particular vaccine.

Brian? · 24-09-2019 4:39pm

Varta wrote: »

Doctors who suspect that a patient has been affected by the swine flu vaccine are seeking batch numbers. This is very curious. Is there a suspicion that some batches of the vaccine were problematic? If it turns out that this vaccine was dodgy, the manufacturer should be crucified, because by selling bad vaccines they do more harm to vaccine campaigns than anti-vaxxers ever could.

From memory, the swine flu vaccine was rushed through without the appropriate clinical trials because of the perceived danger the swine flu represented. A very real danger.

The lesson is that scientific rigor is important, not that vaccines are dangerous. You're right though, it's mana from heaven for the anti vax movement.

Anti-vaxxers

Comments