Anti-vaxxers

waxmoth

mzungu wrote: »

....
Only a few weeks ago we had a poster claiming moral outrage at something Dr. Stanley Plotkin apparently said under oath. When asked to elaborate, the lazy "argument via YouTube" was trotted out where they expected other posters to trawl through it to find what he supposedly said. In the end, what he said was so mundane and uncontroversial it was obvious that professional anti-vaxxers were trying desperately to manufacture outrage over nothing. Their acolytes then vomit up the same spiel in here (and other forums) hoping it will gain traction.

.......

Dr. Plotkin’s testimony is anything but mundane and uncontroversial.

ATTY: Have you ever used orphans to study an experimental vaccine?
DR. PLOTKIN: Yes.
ATTY: Have you ever used the mentally handicapped to study an experimental vaccine?
DR. PLOTKIN: I don’t recollect ever doing studies on mentally handicapped individuals. At the time, in the 1960s, it was not an uncommon practice.
ATTY: So you’re saying — I’m not clear on your answer. I’m sorry. Have you ever used the mentally handicapped to study an experimental vaccine?
DR. PLOTKIN: What I’m saying is I don’t recall specifically having done that, but that in the 1960s, it was not unusual to do that. And I wouldn’t deny that I may have done so.
ATTY: Well, there’s an article entitled “Attenuation of RA 27/3 Rubella Virus in WI38 Human Diploid Cells.” Are you familiar with that article?
DR. PLOTKIN: Yes.
ATTY: In that article, one of the things it says is 13 seronegative mentally retarded children were given RA 27/3 vaccine?
DR. PLOTKIN: Okay. Well then, that’s, in that case, that’s what I did.
ATTY: Have you ever expressed that it’s better to perform experiments on those less likely to be able to contribute to society, such as children with handicaps, than with children without or adults without handicaps?
DR. PLOTKIN: I don’t remember specifically, but it’s possible.
ATTY: Do you remember ever writing to the editor of “Ethics on Human Experimentation”?
DR. PLOTKIN: I don’t remember specifically, but I may well have.
ATTY: I’m going to hand you what’s been marked as Exhibit 43. Do you recognize this letter you wrote to the editor?
DR. PLOTKIN: Yes.
ATTY: Did you write this letter?
DR. PLOTKIN: Yes.
ATTY: Is one of the things you wrote: “The question is whether we are to have experiments performed on fully functioning adults and on children who are potentially contributors to society or to perform initial studies in children and adults who are human in form but not in social potential?”
DR. PLOTKIN: Yes.
ATTY: Have you ever used babies of mothers in prison to study an experimental vaccine?
DR. PLOTKIN: Yes.
ATTY: Have you ever used individuals under colonial rule to study an experimental vaccine?
DR. PLOTKIN: Yes.

https://thedailycoin.org/2019/01/18/godfather-of-vaccines-admits-to-experiments-on-orphans-and-handicapped-children/
from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o06qJA0kjww 49m

jh79

waxmoth wrote: »

Dr. Plotkin’s testimony is anything but mundane and uncontroversial.

https://thedailycoin.org/2019/01/18/godfather-of-vaccines-admits-to-experiments-on-orphans-and-handicapped-children/
from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o06qJA0kjww 49m

He didn't say anything remotely controversial about the safety or effectiveness of vacinnes which is what the poster of the link was claiming.

mzungu

waxmoth wrote: »

Dr. Plotkin’s testimony is anything but mundane and uncontroversial.

https://thedailycoin.org/2019/01/18/godfather-of-vaccines-admits-to-experiments-on-orphans-and-handicapped-children/
from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o06qJA0kjww 49m

Firstly, thank you for cutting directly to the chase and pointing out your grievance from the get-go. Secondly, that is an anti-vaxx website you have linked to (The Daily Coin) so I won't be discussing their take on matters as they are hardly an unbiased source.

I read the transcript you provided above and watched the YouTube video from the 49th minute so I will deal with Dr. Plotkin's comments.

I think it is manufactured outrage to be honest. All I can see in that testimony is Dr. Plotkin outlining how things used to be in the medical community back in the 50s and 60s. Vaccines meant for children will at some stage be used in trials on children. It is also worth noting that he also stated there was parental consent in the cases involved.

Look. Nobody views the past through rose tinted glasses. All this stuff is common knowledge. Everybody knows that some medical practices from decades ago would be done differently now. E.g. They only stopped lobotomies in the 1950s. Its unfortunate, but medical science and testing procedures back then were not of the standard that they are today. What we do is that we learn bit by bit. Then we progress forward making things safer (and more ethical) for everyone.

Think of it this way, the computer/lap top/ smart phone or tablet you posted from probably involved slave labour of some child in Africa or overworked and underpaid employees in Chinese factories. If you (and indeed these anti-vaxx campaigners you link to) were truly aggrieved by what Dr. Plotkin said, then you would have to take a similar stance with a whole host of other things too. Things that involved more hardship on the vulnerable than vaccine tests performed back in the 1960s (but still signed off by parents and still within ethical guidelines of the time) which more than likely saved the lives of many participants that would have been in danger of getting measles/polio etc.

One last thing. None of what Dr. Plotkin was talking about had anything to do about the safety of vaccines or the bogus links with autism. It's a cheap attempt by the same anti-vaxx groups to try and discredit him.

gctest50

mzungu wrote: »

...............

Look. Nobody views the past through rose tinted glasses.

Antivaxxers do and you just get the "no,no,no" thing from them


Maybe many of them have a weird form of Toxoplasmosis and "like" putting themselves at risk because of it


https://www.pnas.org/content/104/15/6442

"We confirmed that Toxoplasma infection in rodents blocks the aversion to cat pheromones"


.

kylith

eagle eye wrote: »

Those followers are what you target. You do that by being reasonable, by selling them your idea. They will tell you where to go at first but if you remain calm and nice they will listen.

Unfortunately it is nigh-on impossible to use logic to dissuade someone from a position they have not reached through logic.

eagle eye

kylith wrote:

Unfortunately it is nigh-on impossible to use logic to dissuade someone from a position they have not reached through logic.

You won't do it online. For the most part these people are followers. You meet them and as a said earlier you sell them the truth. You talk their language and all you need to get is two of them to change their minds because more will follow like sheep.

ancapailldorcha

eagle eye wrote: »

You won't do it online. For the most part these people are followers. You meet them and as a said earlier you sell them the truth. You talk their language and all you need to get is two of them to change their minds because more will follow like sheep.

In my experience, this is fantasy. Real life anti-vaxxers are only different from their online counterparts in that they might be inclined to keep their stupidity to themselves unless in safe company.

ohnonotgmail

eagle eye wrote: »

You won't do it online. For the most part these people are followers. You meet them and as a said earlier you sell them the truth. You talk their language and all you need to get is two of them to change their minds because more will follow like sheep.

How exactly can you do this? You cant use logic because their position is not based on logic.

waxmoth

mzungu wrote: »

....

I read the transcript you provided above and watched the YouTube video from the 49th minute so I will deal with Dr. Plotkin's comments.

I think it is manufactured outrage to be honest. All I can see in that testimony is Dr. Plotkin outlining how things used to be in the medical community back in the 50s and 60s. Vaccines meant for children will at some stage be used in trials on children. It is also worth noting that he also stated there was parental consent in the cases involved.

Look. Nobody views the past through rose tinted glasses. All this stuff is common knowledge. Everybody knows that some medical practices from decades ago would be done differently now. E.g. They only stopped lobotomies in the 1950s. Its unfortunate, but medical science and testing procedures back then were not of the standard that they are today. What we do is that we learn bit by bit. Then we progress forward making things safer (and more ethical) for everyone.

......

He did not mention parental or patient consent to my knowledge and given his ‘human in form but not in social potential’ statement it seems fairly obvious that he wanted cohorts where experimentation would not have consequences.

Vaccines are medicines so it’s all about risk/benefit and this has to be very clear as you are treating healthy patients. The problem is the risk has not been quantified properly because of the purposeful use in many trials of non-inert placebo which is commonly the adjuvant fraction of the tested vaccine or other adjuvanted vaccines of a similar type. Any unbiased review should acknowledge this and other methodological constructs like safety cohort selection and data retention.

Because aluminium salts have never undergone clinical trial using them as placebo in large clinical trials with associated injury is unethical. The use of saline would show the true incidence of adverse events.

Dohnjoe

waxmoth wrote: »

He did not mention parental or patient consent to my knowledge and given his ‘human in form but not in social potential’ statement it seems fairly obvious that he wanted cohorts where experimentation would not have consequences.

Vaccines are medicines so it’s all about risk/benefit and this has to be very clear as you are treating healthy patients. The problem is the risk has not been quantified properly because of the purposeful use in many trials of non-inert placebo which is commonly the adjuvant fraction of the tested vaccine or other adjuvanted vaccines of a similar type. Any unbiased review should acknowledge this and other methodological constructs like safety cohort selection and data retention.

Because aluminium salts have never undergone clinical trial using them as placebo in large clinical trials with associated injury is unethical. The use of saline would show the true incidence of adverse events.

If only vaccines could be tested on a large number of people over decades

If only we had that direct data and results

Orion

rm75 wrote: »

She or her family run a chain of pharmacies, one can point out the conflict of interest in her position without being some sort of anti vaccine nutter. If you want to pretend that's not the case it's pointless engaging further really. Roll your eyes all you like.

I will indeed. She's a pharmacist. Therefore she understands pharmacology. There is no conspiracy. She's not advocating for vaccines just to make a buck. Vaccines save lives.

Orion

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

In my experience, this is fantasy. Real life anti-vaxxers are only different from their online counterparts in that they might be inclined to keep their stupidity to themselves unless in safe company.

I've met some in real life too. They're just as bad then.

Igotadose

New study out of Denmark "finds no evidence that the vaccine that protects against measles, mumps and rubella increases the risk of autism."

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/03/04/699997613/a-large-study-provides-more-evidence-that-mmr-vaccines-dont-cause-autism?utm_campaign=storyshare&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social

Ya think we'll be seeing this on any anti-vaxx sites soon? It's the second such study by this researcher.

B0jangles

Orion wrote: »

I will indeed. She's a pharmacist. Therefore she understands pharmacology. There is no conspiracy. She's not advocating for vaccines just to make a buck. Vaccines save lives.

It is impossible to argue with anti-vaxxers using information, logic or research because all the solid research is carried out by people who have professional qualifications, and anti-vaxxers automatically think that medical professionals are shills for Big Pharma.


Unless they say that vaccines cause autism; those ones are Brave Truth Tellers Speaking Out Against Big Pharma.

Seanachai

I'm not an 'anti-vaxxer', but I'm not a 'pro-vaxxer' either, I have concerns over the one size fits all vaccine schedule, but apparently I'm supposed to just accept that the people in my own family that were affected are just the 'collateral-damage' for herd immunity.

Anybody that truly adheres to the scientific method would not say that this is a closed case. There may be subset of children who have a genetic vulnerability to vaccine damage, it may also be that some kids just can't handle the current schedule.

Igotadose

Seanachai wrote: »

I'm not an 'anti-vaxxer', but I'm not a 'pro-vaxxer' either, I have concerns over the one size fits all vaccine schedule, but apparently I'm supposed to just accept that the people in my own family that were affected are just the 'collateral-damage' for herd immunity.

Anybody that truly adheres to the scientific method would not say that this is a closed case. There may be subset of children who have a genetic vulnerability to vaccine damage, it may also be that some kids just can't handle the current schedule.

Exactly what case do you think is open?

jh79

Seanachai wrote: »

I'm not an 'anti-vaxxer', but I'm not a 'pro-vaxxer' either, I have concerns over the one size fits all vaccine schedule, but apparently I'm supposed to just accept that the people in my own family that were affected are just the 'collateral-damage' for herd immunity.

Anybody that truly adheres to the scientific method would not say that this is a closed case. There may be subset of children who have a genetic vulnerability to vaccine damage, it may also be that some kids just can't handle the current schedule.

So why dooesn't this cohort ever appear on post approval studies?

Also why are you happy to allow completely untested medical marijuana be used on kids but not extensively tested vaccines?

Dohnjoe

Seanachai wrote: »

I'm not an 'anti-vaxxer', but I'm not a 'pro-vaxxer' either, I have concerns over the one size fits all vaccine schedule, but apparently I'm supposed to just accept that the people in my own family that were affected are just the 'collateral-damage' for herd immunity.

Anybody that truly adheres to the scientific method would not say that this is a closed case. There may be subset of children who have a genetic vulnerability to vaccine damage, it may also be that some kids just can't handle the current schedule.

Do you/Would you vaccinate your kids?

ancapailldorcha

Seanachai wrote: »

I'm not an 'anti-vaxxer', but I'm not a 'pro-vaxxer' either, I have concerns over the one size fits all vaccine schedule, but apparently I'm supposed to just accept that the people in my own family that were affected are just the 'collateral-damage' for herd immunity.

Anybody that truly adheres to the scientific method would not say that this is a closed case. There may be subset of children who have a genetic vulnerability to vaccine damage, it may also be that some kids just can't handle the current schedule.

I find the pretence at moderation a bit hollow to be honest.

ancapailldorcha

Nicked from Reddit:

A lady died and went to heaven, upon seeing God she says “there is one thing I always wanted to know. “

“Ok, ask away” God said.

“Do vaccines cause autism?” She asked.

“the truth is no, vaccines have nothing to do with autism” God admitted.

The women shakes her head and says “They got to you too, this thing really goes high up.”

1641

Seanachai wrote: »

I'm not an 'anti-vaxxer', but I'm not a 'pro-vaxxer' either, I have concerns over the one size fits all vaccine schedule,
There may be subset of children who have a genetic vulnerability to vaccine damage,

New Danish study - the largest yet published. Some summary points (from today's Guardian) :


"Their latest work involves 6,517 cases of autism, the biggest number to date, among 650,000 children on the Danish population registry, followed over 10 years."

"Researchers aimed to specifically address some of the criticisms of the anti-vaccination lobby, such as the suggestion that some groups of children were more vulnerable to autism following MMR vaccination than others. The researchers looked at children with a sibling who has autism and those with increased risk factors for autism, such as older parents.
They also looked at whether there was more autism among children who had received other vaccinations before MMR.

Anti-MMR campaigners have also made claims of “clusters” of a regressive form of autism, caused by vaccination, which do not show up in whole population studies.
All these theories were tested in the study, said Hviid, and found to be false.
“We found no support for the hypothesis of increased risk for autism after MMR vaccination in a nationwide unselected population of Danish children, no support for the hypothesis of MMR vaccination triggering autism in susceptible subgroups characterised by environmental and familial risk factors, and no support for a clustering of autism cases in specific time periods after MMR vaccination,” the paper said."


https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/mar/04/no-link-between-autism-and-mmr-affirms-major-study

mzungu

waxmoth wrote: »

He did not mention parental or patient consent to my knowledge....

In the interview that you posted (transcript and video), there is a part of it where the lawyer hands him Exhibit 43. Contained within that Dr. Plotkin outlines that parental consent was given.

waxmoth wrote: »

...and given his ‘human in form but not in social potential’ statement it seems fairly obvious that he wanted cohorts where experimentation would not have consequences

That is your interpretation of it. In the same Exhibit 43 he addresses these concerns. Basically, for the purposes of scientific investigation they distinguished between "functioning" and "non-functioning" members of society. This is common knowledge. Things are done differently now. As noted earlier, parental consent was involved, ergo there was no ethical breaches at the time. If there was, then surely he would have been arrested and charged considering this has been out in the open for over 60 years?

waxmoth wrote: »

Vaccines are medicines so it’s all about risk/benefit and this has to be very clear as you are treating healthy patients. The problem is the risk has not been quantified properly because of the purposeful use in many trials of non-inert placebo which is commonly the adjuvant fraction of the tested vaccine or other adjuvanted vaccines of a similar type. Any unbiased review should acknowledge this and other methodological constructs like safety cohort selection and data retention.

Because aluminium salts have never undergone clinical trial using them as placebo in large clinical trials with associated injury is unethical. The use of saline would show the true incidence of adverse events.

If you believe there was a flaw in their methodology that has not been picked up over extensive research in the past six decades then you should present it to the relevant authorities.

There are risks to vaccines and nobody would tell you otherwise. Those risks, however, are quite low. Of course, because the numbers receiving vaccines diminished we are starting to see that the risk of contracting measles is rising. As for danger of autism, there is no difference in the rates of autism in places with low vaccine uptake compared to places with a high vaccine uptake. That's how this whole crapshow started 21 years ago with Wakefield. Now that the autism bogeyman is being put back in it's box we have an upsurge of "but, but they used aborted babies" and "they tested on the vulnerable" etc. The tune remains the same but the lyrics change.

Aluminium salts are used in vaccines to strengthen to immune response. If you have any evidence of any potential harm they could pose - that have not been picked up over the past seven or so decades - then this would be something that you should also present to the relevant authorities (Trying not to sound like a broken record!). Sure, there are some side effects like Erythema, but thankfully these are rare. Nothing is 100% free from risk. In cases like diphtheria and tetanus, aluminium adjuvants have been found to be more effective in children, so they didn't just decide to use it for no reason at all.

TheRepentent

to be honest I don't think there is much point in talking with them.

Need legislation to protect the majority....no vaccinations no school/creche.

mulbot

TheRepentent wrote: »

to be honest I don't think there is much point in talking with them.

Need legislation to protect the majority....no vaccinations no school/creche.

How about adults that don't get their boosters, should they be banned from the workplace etc.? Or from areas where they come into contact with children?

TheRepentent

mulbot wrote: »

How about adults that don't get their boosters, should they be banned from the workplace etc.? Or from areas where they come into contact with children?

Children first.

are adults that have missed boosters major vectors of preventable diseases?

Martina1991

mulbot wrote:

How about adults that don't get their boosters, should they be banned from the workplace etc.? Or from areas where they come into contact with children?

Boosters to which vaccination? I had the MMR and boosters in primary school. As do most people. No one gets boosters as adults unless they were vaccinated as adults.

I had routine blood tests before working in a hospital and my MMR titres were more than sufficient.

mulbot

Martina1991 wrote: »

Boosters to which vaccination? I had the MMR and boosters in primary school. As do most people. No one gets boosters as adults unless they were vaccinated as adults.

I had routine blood tests before working in a hospital and my MMR titres were more than sufficient.

Influenza, tetanus.

mulbot

TheRepentent wrote: »

Children first.

are adults that have missed boosters major vectors of preventable diseases?

Good question. I'd like to see if there are many studies done.

Ronan|Raven

mulbot wrote: »

Influenza, tetanus.

Tetanus?

mulbot

Ronan|Raven wrote: »

Tetanus?

Point being, if some should have compulsory Vaccines, all should. How come no silly laugh emoji for the Influenza?