ESB eCars

Kramer · 27-10-2020 3:02pm

ELM327 wrote: »

If you look back the past 3 years (typical ownership length) how many times do you exceed the range of your car. If the answer is truly 0 then yes the EV works

We (Mrs. K mostly) did almost 50k km in our 28kWh Ioniq, in little over 12 months. She had a regular 180km to 220km route (work) & 90%+ was overnight charging at home.

We did hammer it up & down the M7 to Belfast (from Limerick) & from Malin Head to Mizen head, for fits 'n' giggles too though.
Public charging was inconvenient & downright frustrating while it was free - locals hogging mainly, but the inconvenience was worth it at the time.

I'd say once 90% of one's charging needs is met at home, it would make an EV viable for most people. More so now with longer range EVs being ubiquitous :P.

If esb just added 12 or 15 proper, 4x 75/150kW CCS, main route/motorway hubs, I's say EVs would be viable for 95%+ of journeys/owners.

It's really not that hard, Tesla have done it, Ionity have done it etc.

ESB doggedly stick to installing/updating 22kW AC units as their priority - I can't understand the logic, I really can't :rolleyes:.

Hopefully Eamon Ryan & the greens will change things

.

ELM327 · 27-10-2020 3:10pm

MJohnston wrote: »

In the common sense — in other words, most people won't come anywhere near exceeding an EV range in any average day.

I'd also say there are few long-distance routes you could drive in Ireland that you wouldn't have multiple charging options along. I'm not arguing that the current state is anywhere near great, but it's definitely in a viable state for most people.

My extended family all live near Belfast or in Donegal, I live in South County Dublin. We had zero hesitation about an i3 being our only car.

I was the same, having an Ioniq and a Leaf as only cars for most of their ownership under me. But I'm an early adapter and will sit at the AC if needed for 2 hours to get home if the DC is broken and I cant make another fast charger.

That's not tenable for most "normal" people though.

Kramer wrote: »

We (Mrs. K mostly) did almost 50k km in our 28kWh Ioniq, in little over 12 months. She had a regular 180km to 220km route (work) & 90%+ was overnight charging at home.

We did hammer it up & down the M7 to Belfast (from Limerick) & from Malin Head to Mizen head, for fits 'n' giggles too though.
Public charging was inconvenient & downright frustrating while it was free - locals hogging mainly, but the inconvenience was worth it at the time.

I'd say once 90% of one's charging needs is met at home, it would make an EV viable for most people. More so now with longer range EVs being ubiquitous :P.

If esb just added 12 or 15 proper, 4x 75/150kW CCS, main route/motorway hubs, I's say EVs would be viable for 95%+ of journeys/owners.

It's really not that hard, Tesla have done it, Ionity have done it etc.

ESB doggedly stick to installing/updating 22kW AC units as their priority - I can't understand the logic, I really can't :rolleyes:.

Hopefully Eamon Ryan & the greens will change things .

I was the same with my Ioniq and it was great, until the winter range was less than 170km and I sold it out of frustration at the network and got a tesla

Black_Knight · 27-10-2020 3:36pm

Kramer wrote: »

ESB doggedly stick to installing/updating 22kW AC units as their priority - I can't understand the logic, I really can't :rolleyes:.
.

Another 22kW upgrade for ya! Though perhaps it's an actual upgrade, giving 22kW AC (rather than 2/6kW), alongside 50kW DC.

Black_Knight wrote: »

Westport leisure center has been upgraded (was 22kW and offline for the last few days) to 50kW DC and 22kW AC.

"Circontrol Raption 50", so it's the same as the 44kW DC 2/6kW AC units, but this one has 50kW DC and 22kW AC allegedly.

27-10-2020 4:02pm

slave1 wrote: »

So had to bring the auld lad to Galway for a medical appointment, had enough to get there and back but to be safe said I'd drop via the Galway Plaza.
Tried on the way into and out of Galway, would connect for 15-18seconds then disconnect, tried ringing eCars and both times when it came my turn to speak to someone the call hung up.
Normal 50 charge point was occupied so I just took the speed down and drove home.

Said it before and I'll say it again, after 3.5years of using the eCars infrastructure, it is TOTALLY UNDEPENDABLE.
My statement remains the same, EVs are perfect second cars but do not get one if you totally depend on public charging.

eCars remain a joke, just checked and the unit is still available to use despite being broken (well CCS side anyhow)...

EDIT, now I'm home I rang them again and they said there are server issues as they are working from home and calls are getting disconnected all morning.
They also said did I know how to charge as they said I cancelled the charges, which I can tell you I did not.
Anyhow, they reckon it's working but can't guarantee it's working, honestly:rolleyes:

Yes and one reason I’m hesitant getting rid of the Rex but I’d probably just take the diesel for longer trips, I’d hate having to swap cars though and at least the Rex allows me to go anywhere any time I might struggle in a model 3 SR+ it wouldn’t be nice having to go back to driving diesel for long trips because of a crap charging infrastructure.

obi604 · 27-10-2020 5:42pm

Laviski wrote: »

22kw charge points at Galway retail park is gone, currently working at present to replace to DC Charging (as to what configuration who knows).
personally they should have left it and added DC charging so there is both. But DC charging will be better anyways.

would they not have waited to do the removal of old ones and install of new ones on the same day or at least the same few days in the idea of a somewhat seamless changeover. Still out of action as of yesterday.

MJohnston · 27-10-2020 5:47pm

ELM327 wrote: »

I was the same, having an Ioniq and a Leaf as only cars for most of their ownership under me. But I'm an early adapter and will sit at the AC if needed for 2 hours to get home if the DC is broken and I cant make another fast charger.

That's not tenable for most "normal" people though.

I guess my point is that most "normal" people aren't doing 200km+ per day very often at all.

Cyrus · 27-10-2020 6:04pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Yes, if you're not using the Tesla network, it's not viable at the moment to have an EV as your only car.
Unless you never exceed the range of your car any day.

really depends how often in a year that you need more than your range in one day, we only have the e-tron as a family car, twice in the 4 months we have had it i needed to charge on the move, ionity was flawless both times.

id guess that we would need the facility maybe 15 times in a year.

Kramer · 27-10-2020 9:19pm

Deleted User wrote: »

the Rex allows me to go anywhere any time I might struggle in a model 3 SR+

I doubt you'd struggle much in a Model 3 SR+ to be honest, unless on long erratic motorway runs in winter - cold battery & all that.

Sure, you'd maybe have the odd issue with public charging but with the 11kW AC capability & plethora of esb AC points, you'd never really get stuck for more than an hour

.

It's still worth the occasional issue, IMO.

Kramer · 27-10-2020 9:44pm

Black_Knight wrote: »

Reveal time. The last 6 days

2020-10-17 10:39:56 Circle K -Topaz Service Station, Sexton Street North, Thomondgate, Limerick City 6.50 hour

The table above is an accumulation of the time any car would be unable to charge at a fast charge point.

Maybe this is some help?

From October 13th @ 6.50pm

to October 27th @ 7.50pm, just over 13 days:

That's 469kWh in 13 days, all DC. That's 36kWh per day, on average, at what should be a busy city location :eek:.
That's at what, 26c/kWh?

These are not financially viable at just 3% utilisation IMO, yet we need more, to make EV adoption more viable. It's a conundrum.

markpb · 27-10-2020 10:17pm

Kramer wrote: »

That's 469kWh in 13 days, all DC. That's 36kWh per day, on average, at what should be a busy city location :eek:.
That's at what, 26c/kWh?

It’s been said before but now is not the best time to evaluate the use of the EV charging network.

Kramer · 27-10-2020 10:24pm

markpb wrote: »

It’s been said before but now is not the best time to evaluate the use of the EV charging network.

This charger has been perpetually idle since charging for charging came in last year.
Added to that, traffic levels for the last 3 or 4 months were back to pre covid levels.
Added to that the amount of new evs on the road since July's 202 reg introduction, Model 3s, ID.3s, e208s etc.

No, very, very few of these will be worthy of continued investment or entice in private companies with such low utilisation. They need subvention so we're stuck with ecars for now.

Sad fact but that Limerick rapid charger wouldn't even cover the capital expenditure for 30+ years, at 3% utilisation.

27-10-2020 10:30pm

Kramer wrote: »

I doubt you'd struggle much in a Model 3 SR+ to be honest, unless on long erratic motorway runs in winter - cold battery & all that.

Sure, you'd maybe have the odd issue with public charging but with the 11kW AC capability & plethora of esb AC points, you'd never really get stuck for more than an hour .

It's still worth the occasional issue, IMO.

I have 11 Kw in the i3 and it really is great but we need a lot more AC points because they're a lot busier now too even with the kwh billing. Chances are if I go to the South West, West, North West I wouldn't find an AC point near where I'd be staying.

If I'm in a half decent town then chances are I'd only have access to 1 or 2 50 Kw DC chargers too and it's all a lot more inconvenient than firing up the Rex to be honest and you're correct I'd have more range in the SR+ probably twice what I have in the 94 Ah i3 or a little less but that doesn't mean it would be any less inconvenient.

27-10-2020 10:35pm

MJohnston wrote: »

I guess my point is that most "normal" people aren't doing 200km+ per day very often at all.

No they're not but when they go away for weekends, a week or two this is where the network really shows how poor it is, it needs to be dependable and abundant as Petrol stations/pumps.

the_amazing_raisin · 27-10-2020 10:37pm

Kramer wrote: »

This charger has been perpetually idle since charging for charging came in last year.
Added to that, traffic levels for the last 3 or 4 months were back to pre covid levels.
Added to that the amount of new evs on the road since July's 202 reg introduction, Model 3s, ID.3s, e208s etc.

No, very, very few of these will be worthy of continued investment or entice in private companies with such low utilisation. They need subvention so we're stuck with ecars for now.

Sad fact but that Limerick rapid charger wouldn't even cover the capital expenditure for 30+ years, at 3% utilisation.

It's a bit grim but there'll always be a need for chargers in financially unviable locations. I'm okay with those being funded by the government or councils but there still has to be standards around it. ESB Ecars doesn't have anything even approaching standards

the_amazing_raisin · 27-10-2020 10:41pm

slave1 wrote: »

So had to bring the auld lad to Galway for a medical appointment, had enough to get there and back but to be safe said I'd drop via the Galway Plaza.
Tried on the way into and out of Galway, would connect for 15-18seconds then disconnect, tried ringing eCars and both times when it came my turn to speak to someone the call hung up.
Normal 50 charge point was occupied so I just took the speed down and drove home.

Said it before and I'll say it again, after 3.5years of using the eCars infrastructure, it is TOTALLY UNDEPENDABLE.
My statement remains the same, EVs are perfect second cars but do not get one if you totally depend on public charging.

eCars remain a joke, just checked and the unit is still available to use despite being broken (well CCS side anyhow)...

EDIT, now I'm home I rang them again and they said there are server issues as they are working from home and calls are getting disconnected all morning.
They also said did I know how to charge as they said I cancelled the charges, which I can tell you I did not.
Anyhow, they reckon it's working but can't guarantee it's working, honestly:rolleyes:

All ESB employees should be given Leaf 24kWhs and not allowed to have home or work chargers. I'd say a few weeks of living through that nonsense and suddenly they'll realise they need to turn around their network

irishgrover · 27-10-2020 11:41pm

cruisey1987 wrote: »

All ESB employees should be given Leaf 24kWhs and not allowed to have home or work chargers. I'd say a few weeks of living through that nonsense and suddenly they'll realise they need to turn around their network

ya know that they would then just remove all the CCS chargers and just replace them with Chademo...... never underestimate the level of potential incompetence

the_amazing_raisin · 28-10-2020 12:01am

irishgrover wrote: »

ya know that they would then just remove all the CCS chargers and just replace them with Chademo...... never underestimate the level of potential incompetence

Dammit, you make a good point.

Although as a leaf owner I'd like to say I'm against these ccs only locations people keep asking for. Needs to be 2 Chademo plugs in a hub (yes 2, one could be broken)

ELM327 · 28-10-2020 10:39am

Kramer wrote: »

This charger has been perpetually idle since charging for charging came in last year.
Added to that, traffic levels for the last 3 or 4 months were back to pre covid levels.
Added to that the amount of new evs on the road since July's 202 reg introduction, Model 3s, ID.3s, e208s etc.

No, very, very few of these will be worthy of continued investment or entice in private companies with such low utilisation. They need subvention so we're stuck with ecars for now.

Sad fact but that Limerick rapid charger wouldn't even cover the capital expenditure for 30+ years, at 3% utilisation.

Charging for charging = no freeloaders
New evs = longer range, no need for so much (any) fast charger.

These are just reasons that support your statement that the charger is not financially viable.

No one has yet created a standalone viable fast charging network. It's a value add (tesla, Ionity), a prospect that is currently loss leading (fastned, ecotricity, easygo - presumably -, etc) or state owned/semistate (ecars)

ELM327 · 28-10-2020 10:40am

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Dammit, you make a good point.

Although as a leaf owner I'd like to say I'm against these ccs only locations people keep asking for. Needs to be 2 Chademo plugs in a hub (yes 2, one could be broken)

The prospective usage demographics would suggest that if a hub was 4 chargers, 2 HPC and 2 50kW, that the 2 50kW should have a triple head, and the HPC should only have CCS. Giving 6 * CCS plugs and 2*chademo plugs.

innrain · 28-10-2020 12:33pm

I just realized that when we speak of hubs we've never expressed them as total installed capacity like Fastned and Tesla who just opened the 7 MW one in Germany.
Back in April 2019 the press release said
"More than 50 high-power ESB network charging hubs will be installed on motorways and national roads, the Department of Climate Action and Environment has announced. The high-power hubs will be able to charge between two and eight vehicles simultaneously and provide up to 100km of range power in as little as six minutes."

Assuming an optimistic 15 kWh/100km consumption rate, it requires 150kW to charge 100km in 6 mins. From the ecars 2019 definition, (2-8 cars simultaneously), a hub is a group of chargers with the installed capacity of 300 kW - 1.2MW.
So ecars has two 200kW ones, one 100kW (Portlaoise has a 150kW capable but restricted to 50kW) and couple of 100kWish where power is divided DC/AC. So after 18 months, zero hubs. How would such review sit in a private company?

Kramer · 28-10-2020 12:51pm

innrain wrote: »

it requires 150kW to charge 100km in 6 mins. From the ecars 2019 definition, (2-8 cars simultaneously), a hub is a group of chargers with the installed capacity of 300 kW - 1.2MW...............So after 18 months, zero hubs. How would such review sit in a private company?

Yeah, by their own criteria, they have installed zero hubs.

Best case scenario, a Model 3 SR+ can charge at 1000km+/h on their new 150kW chargers (think I've seen 1100km+/h briefly on screen).
Plug in a second & that speed would be reduced to half.

So yeah, even ECars couldn't spin it as having already installed "hubs".

Quick call to Eamon & the green lads will have it sorted though

.

liamog · 28-10-2020 1:16pm

eCars wrote:

The high-power hubs will be able to charge between two and eight vehicles simultaneously and provide up to 100km of range power in as little as six minutes.

By that definition an Efacec triple head is a hub

Charge between two and eight vehicles simultaneously - Yes, two cars can charge simultaneously
Provide up to 100km of range power in as little as six minutes - Yes 10km of range provided in six minutes is "up to 100km"

AndyBoBandy · 28-10-2020 1:28pm

So As it stands, really only 3 cars can add 100km of range in a 6 minute period simultaneously in the entire country using eCars network (Kilcullen, Galway Plaza, Kells) Add Portlaoise to that list if they remove the restriction...

Meanwhile 15 Tesla's can simultaneously put 100+km of range on in roughly the same time.. double that number to 30 Tesla's plugged in simultaneously, and will probably reduce that to 50/60km of range in the same 6 minutes.

And then how many Ionity units are there in the country now??

eCars area joke.

AndyBoBandy · 28-10-2020 1:31pm

liamog wrote: »

By that definition an Efacec triple head is a hub

Charge between two and eight vehicles simultaneously - Yes, two cars can charge simultaneously

They can't charge 2 cars simultaneously if it's alongside a 150kW unit, or so eCars said last week on Facebook!! I'm still waiting for them to advise if this only at the 150kW sites, or if it applies to all triple heads now..

Kramer · 28-10-2020 1:36pm

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

eCars area joke.

At current EV penetration levels, rapid DC charging likely isn't financially viable, as a stand alone service, in all but a few locations.
Tesla/Ionity/Applegreen/CircleK - all businesses where charging provision is a secondary concern, as EML327 said, a value added proposition.

As critical as I am of ECars & their profligate use of my tax money, I think they are the only game in town right now

.

As someone else mentioned, it's grim.

I'm still holding out some hope Eamon will wake up some time this year though & get this sorted. Sure isn't he just about to get his own EV - he's widening his driveway for a charger!

Hope he uses organic concrete

.

innrain · 28-10-2020 1:38pm

liamog wrote: »

By that definition an Efacec triple head is a hub

Charge between two and eight vehicles simultaneously - Yes, two cars can charge simultaneously
Provide up to 100km of range power in as little as six minutes - Yes 10km of range provided in six minutes is "up to 100km"

I read "up to x" as "maximum x" so it should be able to reach x at least once in a blue moon.

liamog · 28-10-2020 1:40pm

You obviously missed the Ioniq 28kWh and it's up to 100kW CCS charging capability

AndyBoBandy · 28-10-2020 1:43pm

Kramer wrote: »

At current EV penetration levels, rapid DC charging likely isn't financially viable, as a stand alone service, in all but a few locations.
Tesla/Ionity/Applegreen/CircleK - all businesses where charging provision is a secondary concern, as EML327 said, a value added proposition.

But isn't that why they were subsidised by the taxpayer to the tune of about €10m? To install this network while it's not financially viable, so as to help with EV uptake in the country.

an 'If you build it, they will come' type of deal....

Kramer · 28-10-2020 1:48pm

liamog wrote: »

You obviously missed the Ioniq 28kWh and it's up to 100kW CCS charging capability

There will be no Ioniq bashing around here!!
Great bus, charged at 3c. I think I often got 70kW on Ionity into that cobalt laden battery :eek:.

I also managed 7kWh/100km over a 70+ km journey once, so that car would also be capable of 1000km/h charge speed, or 100km in just 6 minutes, on a 75kW charger.

Technically, 2 Ioniqs, charging simultaneously, on both CCS connectors at an ECars 150kW charger, Galway Plaza etc., would meet the criteria of 100km in 6 minutes, each.

So that's the exception to the rule - we have hubs, as per ECars criteria, confirmed

.

liamog · 28-10-2020 1:52pm

When are you starting work at eCars?

ESB eCars

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