DCM 2017 Mentored Novices Thread

BrownEyes79 · 24-09-2017 3:16pm

Sillymoo you're not allowed to quit! You ran a great race yesterday even though you 1) forgot your race number, 2) were stuck in the traffic from hell, 3) arrived 45mins late to the race, 4) had to find the help desk among the chaos and 5) you saved someone's life at the side of the road! And to top it all off you finished a half marathon..... you're superwoman and you should be felling very proud of yourself today

El Caballo · 24-09-2017 3:19pm

clickerquicklic wrote: »

Thanks lads , yeah maybe its a bridge too far for me this year but I'm feeling very strong , I was able to speed up at will yesterday and wasn't looking for the finish line felt I could of kept running at that pace for a few miles longer. It was a 1.29 in not ideal circumstances stopping and starting trying to get around people was very draining , but running a few 4.30km's with a crowd of runners around feels effortless. Just looking at the times 3.20 pacers be doing 4.45km's thats going to be feel like an LSR in a race scenario.

I know I should respect the distance and its always going to be an unknown because you don't run 26.2 miles in training but lately I feel like I've been giving too much respect to the distance and maybe I should just get on with it.

I ran in marathon in 2007 in 3.54 but only ran one of two runs a week for it , did no running then till about 2015 started doing Parkruns then and then and maybe the 2 runs a week at most during the summer , summer 2016 I started running about 3 times a week and have gradually upped it to be running 4/5 times a week now and following a plan.

What you have to understand here is that the first 20 miles of a marathon are not a race scenario. The trick in the marathon is managing all the urges that are telling you "This is too slow". A lesson I've learned through my own experiences and the experiences of many others on forums I've visited is that round numbers are usually the cause of marathon problems, people tend to stretch themselves to reach the next number up. I understand that you have to have goals but what is wrong with a 3:13 or 3:17 marathon?

Also, once people have committed to a marathon goal weeks before a race, they seem intent on targeting that goal whatever the circumstances on Marathon day whatever the weather or circumstances.

The first marathon I properly trained for, I went into it with a 1:26:26 PB about 5 weeks before and targeted 3:10. I had a boatload of MP miles under my belt and running 4:30's during the race felt like I was out on an evening recovery run. By 22 miles, running 5.15's felt like dragging a grand piano up Mont Blanc even though just 5 weeks earlier, I was clicking off 3:50's in the last few kilometres of a half marathon.

Dublin is a tough course, especially the first half which will excessively dig into your fuel reserves if you are not careful and chasing a time which may be out of reach. This is the marathons greatest trick, it lulls you into a false sense of security over the early miles.

What if the weather isn't ideal on race day? I went into Dublin 2014 targeting a sub-3. I was borderline at best and had comfortably ran 30k at sub-3 pace in training. The morning of the race turned out to be exceptionally humid but I was so focused on that round number that I ended up going for it anyway and was walking a mile after going through halfway in 1:30 despite running through 13.1 Miles in 1:28 during the 30k workout just a few weeks earlier.

The marathon rewards discipline more than anything else. If you think you will be in shape to run 3:10, what's wrong with going out in 1:38/9 as you should be able to run the second half well under 1:35 and record a 3:12/13ish time that way but will have the benefit of feeling it out after halfway and accessing if you can. A time like that is a hell of a performance for a first proper marathon. You will have plenty of opportunities after this to run faster and I have no doubt you will but this should be treated as a learning experience that you can take forward to your next marathon as you will be much more experienced on how you cope with the distance.

I'm sorry to anyone if this comes across as a fear mongering post, that is not my intention but just sharing the thoughts of someone who has made a lot of mistakes during the race.

Swashbuckler · 24-09-2017 3:31pm

El Caballo wrote:

I'm sorry to anyone if this comes across as a fear mongering post, that is not my intention but just sharing the thoughts of someone who has made a lot of mistakes during the race.

It's a brilliant post and answered all the questions I had planned on asking next june when I plan to start my first marathon training block. Thanks for that. Much appreciated.

hot buttered scones · 24-09-2017 3:39pm

El Caballo wrote: »

What you have to understand here is that the first 20 miles of a marathon are not a race scenario. The trick in the marathon is managing all the urges that are telling you "This is too slow". A lesson I've learned through my own experiences and the experiences of many others on forums I've visited is that round numbers are usually the cause of marathon problems, people tend to stretch themselves to reach the next number up. I understand that you have to have goals but what is wrong with a 3:13 or 3:17 marathon?

Also, once people have committed to a marathon goal weeks before a race, they seem intent on targeting that goal whatever the circumstances on Marathon day whatever the weather or circumstances.

The first marathon I properly trained for, I went into it with a 1:26:26 PB about 5 weeks before and targeted 3:10. I had a boatload of MP miles under my belt and running 4:30's during the race felt like I was out on an evening recovery run. By 22 miles, running 5.15's felt like dragging a grand piano up Mont Blanc even though just 5 weeks earlier, I was clicking off 3:50's in the last few kilometres of a half marathon.

Dublin is a tough course, especially the first half which will excessively dig into your fuel reserves if you are not careful and chasing a time which may be out of reach. This is the marathons greatest trick, it lulls you into a false sense of security over the early miles.

What if the weather isn't ideal on race day? I went into Dublin 2014 targeting a sub-3. I was borderline at best and had comfortably ran 30k at sub-3 pace in training. The morning of the race turned out to be exceptionally humid but I was so focused on that round number that I ended up going for it anyway and was walking a mile after going through halfway in 1:30 despite running through 13.1 Miles in 1:27 during the 30k workout just a few weeks earlier.

The marathon rewards discipline more than anything else. If you think you will be in shape to run 3:10, what's wrong with going out in 1:38/9 as you should be able to run the second half well under 1:35 and record a 3:12/13ish time that way but will have the benefit of feeling it out after halfway and accessing if you can. A time like that is a hell of a performance for a first proper marathon. You will have plenty of opportunities after this to run faster and I have no doubt you will but this should be treated as a learning experience that you can take forward to your next marathon as you will be much more experienced on how you cope with the distance.

I'm sorry to anyone if this comes across as a fear mongering post, that is not my intention but just sharing the thoughts of someone who has made a lot of mistakes during the race.

Bookmarked, and seconded. I was going to target 3:20 last year. Did out my splits, added a bit for the extra bit you always run. When I saw the splits I didn't feel confident, so when I adjusted the pace to something I felt was more achievable it came out at 3:22. I more or less stuck to my plan, ran my own race and finished in 3:21:45 - and I knew I had reached my limit. Cork this year and Dublin in 2015 - neither went as well as they could have due to chasing a round time and not adjusting for the conditions on the day. I often think we should aim to run the marathon at x:xx average pace, rather than a nice round time. ( Although I'm being sucked into the round numbers thing this year. :rolleyes: )
And no, it's not fear mongering -its very good advice for all marathoners, novices or otherwise.

clickerquicklic · 24-09-2017 3:39pm

El Caballo wrote: »

I'm sorry to anyone if this comes across as a fear mongering post, that is not my intention but just sharing the thoughts of someone who has made a lot of mistakes during the race.

El Caballo its an excellent post and just what I wanted to read , the reason for chasing the round number is simply to run with the pacers if there was a 3.13 or 3.17 pacer I would target them times. I'm respecting the distance but 3.30 is now looking like its too conservative a time , 3.20 looks like it could be achieved but maybe that is a little conservative I don't know hence asking for opinions from others that have been there and done that as I can only guess what it feels like trying to run my 42nd km at 4.30 pace.
Thanks again for your detailed response.

Amirani · 24-09-2017 3:53pm

So, yesterday didn't really go to plan...

First ever race. Plans was to follow 1:40 pacers. Got there a bit late and ended up going through 5/6 mins after the start so weren't really catchable. Was using a running watch for the first time (normally use phone) - only realised a minute or two in that it was set in km and I'd been training in miles. Annoying , but manageable. Then battery on said running watch decided to die with about 3/4 miles to go so I had to run them blind.

Ended up coming in at 1:40:48 which I'm happy enough about without being ecstatic. Was a hilly enough course and good few things didn't go to plan. Room for improvement to be sure.

quickbeam · 24-09-2017 3:55pm

What pacers will there be on The Day? I know the website says pacers from 3:00-5:00 at ten minute intervals but there were extra at theh HM not listed on the website, so will it be the same for the marathon?

My Fingal's prediction of my FD was pretty much bang on. But both races predicted about 6 minutes slower than I actually did the HM. So for the marathon, if I stick to Fingal/FD predictor I'm about 5:30-5:40. But if I go with the HM predictor I'm just over 5:20. But whatever I chose on the day*, none of these times officially have pacers listed, so hoping that they might be on anyway.

* tbh, I'd be happy with any one of those times - just to finish, preferably without having to stop to walk, would be a dream.

AuldManKing · 24-09-2017 4:00pm

El Caballo wrote: »

What you have to understand here is that the first 20 miles of a marathon are not a race scenario. The trick in the marathon is managing all the urges that are telling you "This is too slow". A lesson I've learned through my own experiences and the experiences of many others on forums I've visited is that round numbers are usually the cause of marathon problems, people tend to stretch themselves to reach the next number up. I understand that you have to have goals but what is wrong with a 3:13 or 3:17 marathon?

Also, once people have committed to a marathon goal weeks before a race, they seem intent on targeting that goal whatever the circumstances on Marathon day whatever the weather or circumstances.

The first marathon I properly trained for, I went into it with a 1:26:26 PB about 5 weeks before and targeted 3:10. I had a boatload of MP miles under my belt and running 4:30's during the race felt like I was out on an evening recovery run. By 22 miles, running 5.15's felt like dragging a grand piano up Mont Blanc even though just 5 weeks earlier, I was clicking off 3:50's in the last few kilometres of a half marathon.

Dublin is a tough course, especially the first half which will excessively dig into your fuel reserves if you are not careful and chasing a time which may be out of reach. This is the marathons greatest trick, it lulls you into a false sense of security over the early miles.

What if the weather isn't ideal on race day? I went into Dublin 2014 targeting a sub-3. I was borderline at best and had comfortably ran 30k at sub-3 pace in training. The morning of the race turned out to be exceptionally humid but I was so focused on that round number that I ended up going for it anyway and was walking a mile after going through halfway in 1:30 despite running through 13.1 Miles in 1:27 during the 30k workout just a few weeks earlier.

The marathon rewards discipline more than anything else. If you think you will be in shape to run 3:10, what's wrong with going out in 1:38/9 as you should be able to run the second half well under 1:35 and record a 3:12/13ish time that way but will have the benefit of feeling it out after halfway and accessing if you can. A time like that is a hell of a performance for a first proper marathon. You will have plenty of opportunities after this to run faster and I have no doubt you will but this should be treated as a learning experience that you can take forward to your next marathon as you will be much more experienced on how you cope with the distance.

I'm sorry to anyone if this comes across as a fear mongering post, that is not my intention but just sharing the thoughts of someone who has made a lot of mistakes during the race.

^^ The post of the entire thread right there - to be re-read each week!! ^^

hot buttered scones · 24-09-2017 4:16pm

clickerquicklic wrote: »

El Caballo its an excellent post and just what I wanted to read , the reason for chasing the round number is simply to run with the pacers if there was a 3.13 or 3.17 pacer I would target them times. I'm respecting the distance but 3.30 is now looking like its too conservative a time , 3.20 looks like it could be achieved but maybe that is a little conservative I don't know hence asking for opinions from others that have been there and done that as I can only guess what it feels like trying to run my 42nd km at 4.30 pace.
Thanks again for your detailed response.

Work backwards I suppose - what do you think is an achievable M pace? What if 4:30 is too slow and 4:20 is too fast? what if 4:26 is more optimal for example? There's nothing wrong with being conservative either - because what might feel really really conservative in mile 1 might be beyond reach in mile 26. The experience you're lacking is knowing what marathon pace feels like, and so therefore you won't know that you're going too hard until its too late - and from reading your post you know that yourself. Therefore it's better to be conservative this time out, and use this as a learning experience. So what if you could have run faster. You'll have run a great time, with a massive PB and a really good training block behind you - a really strong base to build, and a wealth of experience to enable to go out and attack it the next time. The main thing is to relax. Run relaxed (not slow, but physically relaxed as in not tense), ease into the race and check yourself every few miles - how are you feeling, how's your breathing, how are the energy levels. What's the worst that can happen? You get to mile 22 with loads in the tank, and run the last 4 miles in at 10k pace, passing a couple of hundred people on the way to a massive negative split?

clickerquicklic · 24-09-2017 4:24pm

hot buttered scones wrote: »

Work backwards I suppose - what do you think is an achievable M pace? What if 4:30 is too slow and 4:20 is too fast? what if 4:26 is more optimal for example? There's nothing wrong with being conservative either - because what might feel really really conservative in mile 1 might be beyond reach in mile 26. The experience you're lacking is knowing what marathon pace feels like, and so therefore you won't know that you're going too hard until its too late - and from reading your post you know that yourself. Therefore it's better to be conservative this time out, and use this as a learning experience. So what if you could have run faster. You'll have run a great time, with a massive PB and a really good training block behind you - a really strong base to build, and a wealth of experience to enable to go out and attack it the next time. The main thing is to relax. Run relaxed (not slow, but physically relaxed as in not tense), ease into the race and check yourself every few miles - how are you feeling, how's your breathing, how are the energy levels. What's the worst that can happen? You get to mile 22 with loads in the tank, and run the last 4 miles in at 10k pace, passing a couple of hundred people on the way to a massive negative split?

Thanks guys really appreciate it there's some great advice there , made my mind up going to train for 3.20 pace and go with the 3.20 pacers on the day , I just need to get some runs in at that PMP from now till marathon day.

Hope I'm not coming across too cocky suggesting these paces are easy and that comments might come back to bite me if I can't hold 3.20 pace on the day ,I just want to run to my potential on the day.

hot buttered scones · 24-09-2017 4:32pm

clickerquicklic wrote: »

Thanks guys really appreciate it there's some great advice there , made my mind up going to train for 3.20 pace and go with the 3.20 pacers on the day , I just need to get some runs in at that PMP from now till marathon day.

Hope I'm not coming across too cocky suggesting these paces are easy and that comments might come back to bite me if I can't hold 3.20 pace on the day ,I just want to run to my potential on the day.

Don't let this wreck your head. Its a waste of energy. And especially do not worry what random strangers on the internet will think if you don't reach your target.

Go out and see what it feels like. And then run to that feeling (does that make sense) - which might mean letting the pacers get away from you a bit on the hills and reeling them back in on the descents. The worst thing you can do on race day is fret about your time (but we all do anyway). Can you do some PMP stuff up Chesterfield Avenue in the park? Just to get a feel for what that will be like on race day?

clickerquicklic · 24-09-2017 4:35pm

hot buttered scones wrote: »

Don't let this wreck your head. Its a waste of energy. And especially do not worry what random strangers on the internet will think if you don't reach your target. Go out and see what it feels like. And then run to that feeling (does that make sense) - which might mean letting the pacers get away from you a bit on the hills and reeling them back in on the descents. The worst thing you can do on race day is fret about your time (but we all do anyway). Can you do some PMP stuff up Chesterfield Avenue in the park? Just to get a feel for what that will be like on race day?

Yeah I can go to the PP and do some PMP I might do that next week actually , cheers well done on your recent half PB yourself excellent running I'm sure you'll hit your targets for Dublin.

hot buttered scones · 24-09-2017 4:36pm

clickerquicklic wrote: »

Yeah I can go to the PP and do some PMP I might do that next week actually , cheers well done on your recent half PB yourself excellent running I'm sure you'll hit your targets for Dublin.

Cheers. I'll look forward to seeing how you get on with those sessions.

Lazare · 24-09-2017 6:42pm

Some excellent stuff in this thread today.

Cheers Clicker for spawning it.

Lazare · 24-09-2017 6:43pm

Was out today on a recovery jog with my half t-shirt on.

Such a show off.

ariana` · 24-09-2017 6:49pm

Lazare wrote: »

Was out today on a recovery jog with my half t-shirt on.

Such a show off.

Why not, you earned it

18m lsr done. My God it's a hot sunny day in the West! I sweated buckets. Had no fuel with me but OH met me half way with a couple of jellies

As always the last 4-5 miles felt long but I got there. Heel is sore now but otherwise feeling ok

I'm heading stateside on Tues for a week so I'll be off plan. I'll do what I can but there definitely won't be an lsr

I did a big week this week (5 PMP + 10 + 7 + 18) and I'll have 1 more big week before taper so hopefully the low mileage off plan week won't do too much damage.

I won't be online much this week so have a good week all

Lazare · 24-09-2017 6:50pm

Safe trip ariana, well done today.

Lazare · 24-09-2017 7:04pm

The RW predictor was pretty much spot on for yesterday, had me finishing in 1:46:26. Only checked it now. I finished in 1:46:14.

Great news is it predicts a marathon time of 3:58:21

Now to go and do it.

BrownEyes79 · 24-09-2017 7:15pm

Lazare wrote: »

Was out today on a recovery jog with my half t-shirt on.

Such a show off.

Me too :pac:

Baby75 · 24-09-2017 7:47pm

Lazare wrote: »

Was out today on a recovery jog with my half t-shirt on.

Such a show off.

I have mine on and was out getting a bit of shopping saw a guy wearing his and smiled and said hello, I nearly said snap only he was giving me odd looks

sillymoo I'm delighted you made it, I was hoping you would and I am so sorry it threw you off like it did, it was stressful and a hard course no water was awful you should be so proud you kept going I wish I had your number you could of text me and I would have waited hindsight is no good now though massive kudos to stopping to help, I saw a lot suffering and having to walk when I say they normally wouldn't and probably all down to the delay in start and lack of water. I was chatting to a lovely woman during the run yesterday and she said that the Marathon is brilliant and the support from the people carries you around as do the other runners around you, I am holding on to that as I am feeling very nervous about the Marathon not to mention the 20 miler coming up in the next 2 weeks mainly because anyone else I know has completed the distance already and have 1 more left before taper and I have yet to do it :eek:

Baby75 · 24-09-2017 7:53pm

ariana` wrote: »

Why not, you earned it

18m lsr done. My God it's a hot sunny day in the West! I sweated buckets. Had no fuel with me but OH met me half way with a couple of jellies As always the last 4-5 miles felt long but I got there. Heel is sore now but otherwise feeling ok

I'm heading stateside on Tues for a week so I'll be off plan. I'll do what I can but there definitely won't be an lsr

I did a big week this week (5 PMP + 10 + 7 + 18) and I'll have 1 more big week before taper so hopefully the low mileage off plan week won't do too much damage.

I won't be online much this week so have a good week all

Well done on the 18 miles

Omeceron · 24-09-2017 8:06pm

Week 13

Day | Run | Pace
Mon | 3 Mile Easy| 10:44
Tue | 4 Mile PMP with Strides| 09:57
Wed | Rest |
Thu | Rest |
Fri | 2 Mile Recovery Inc 5 min @ Race| 10:35
Sat | Dublin Half Marathon| 09:35
Sun | 2 Mile Recovery| 10:40

My half marathon t shirt is too small, but I got the same size as the 10 miler which fits fine!

Unthought Known · 24-09-2017 9:04pm

Omeceron wrote: »

Week 13

Day | Run | Pace
Mon | 3 Mile Easy| 10:44
Tue | 4 Mile PMP with Strides| 09:57
Wed | Rest |
Thu | Rest |
Fri | 2 Mile Recovery Inc 5 min @ Race| 10:35
Sat | Dublin Half Marathon| 09:35
Sun | 2 Mile Recovery| 10:40

My half marathon t shirt is too small, but I got the same size as the 10 miler which fits fine!

You could always try sending them a message. I'd say they have quite a few spare

Damo 2k9 · 24-09-2017 9:24pm

Baby75 wrote: »

I have mine on and was out getting a bit of shopping saw a guy wearing his and smiled and said hello, I nearly said snap only he was giving me odd looks

sillymoo I'm delighted you made it, I was hoping you would and I am so sorry it threw you off like it did, it was stressful and a hard course no water was awful you should be so proud you kept going I wish I had your number you could of text me and I would have waited hindsight is no good now though massive kudos to stopping to help, I saw a lot suffering and having to walk when I say they normally wouldn't and probably all down to the delay in start and lack of water. I was chatting to a lovely woman during the run yesterday and she said that the Marathon is brilliant and the support from the people carries you around as do the other runners around you, I am holding on to that as I am feeling very nervous about the Marathon not to mention the 20 miler coming up in the next 2 weeks mainly because anyone else I know has completed the distance already and have 1 more left before taper and I have yet to do it :eek:

Still yet to do my 20 miler aswell, don't worry!!
Feeling stiff today but still absolutely buzzing about yesterday. Bring on these next two weeks of long weeks and let the taper begin

A meet up in 2 weeks would be great to do, I know for the HHN1 people it's a 20 miler LSR, not sure for boardsies but regardless of distance people can drop off/in at whatever distance, considering the disaster yesterday not allowing a meet up. Get to put usernames to faces before the big day!!

skyblue46 · 24-09-2017 9:26pm

Unthought Known wrote: »

You could always try sending them a message. I'd say they have quite a few spare

A friend of mine did some stewarding and brought home boxes of coconut Fulfill bars!

Damo 2k9 · 24-09-2017 9:30pm

skyblue46 wrote: »

A friend of mine did some stewarding and brought home boxes of coconut Fulfill bars!

I'd say he could do that regardless of the numbers, wouldn't give them to the dog! :pac:

Baby75 · 24-09-2017 11:00pm

I had 4 in my bag

kids did not even like them

My hubby just registered us for the Enfield 3/4 :eek: after speaking to others who ran it saying it is a great run and many treat it as their last LSR before DCM it is on Sunday the 8th and will sell out this week he says.

sillymoo · 24-09-2017 11:21pm

Thanks for all the encouragement guys and gals! Slept so well last night and feeling bright today. Going to attack the next few weeks as best I can and shuffle my way through the marathon if I have to

Btw the lady was grand - no lifesaving heroics yesterday, just supplied some jellies, reassurance and hand holding until paramedic arrived

Ye are all amazing on this thread x

D3PO · 25-09-2017 8:25am

well done to all those who did the half at the weekend, sounds like a disaster with the traffic management so Im glad I skipped out on it.

Left it to make up for some of the longer runs Ive missed due to this knee issue, and planned to do an 18 mile LSR instead. Unfortunately had to quit on the run after 15.5 miles as the pain just got unbearable.

Another ebb in this marathon training journey. Thankfully this is a step back week for me so a chance for this issue to get some rest milagewise. I really feel 50/50 about finishing the marathon right now and Ive resigned myself to the fact that sub 4 hour is now out the window.

One long run left to do a 20 miler in 2 weeks time. The acid test on how likely im even to finish the marathon will be how I get on in that.

ariana` · 25-09-2017 8:44am

Baby75 wrote: »

I had 4 in my bag kids did not even like them

My hubby just registered us for the Enfield 3/4 :eek: after speaking to others who ran it saying it is a great run and many treat it as their last LSR before DCM it is on Sunday the 8th and will sell out this week he says.

I think it's already sold out. I clicked the link and it says "No bookings available"!

Ooooops sorry my bad, i was clicking last years link. It is still available, it's €49 though :eek:

DCM 2017 Mentored Novices Thread

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