DCM 2017 Mentored Novices Thread

Lazare

Have a gym session booked for 4:40 today. Was thinking of doing 4m either straight before or straight after it.

Good or bad idea?

I can switch my 4m to tomorrow.

skyblue46

hot buttered scones wrote: »

Block out the noise. Hard days hard, easy days easy. If you were exhausted after every run you wouldn't be long breaking down. Yeah, some days, some sessions should be hard - but being driven to the point of exhaustion - leave that until marathon day. All this "plodding" you're doing - it's improving your aerobic capacity and your endurance and your HM result proves that.
Just train away like you've been doing, and start off at 4 hour pace. If you get to 20 miles feeling good, push on from there. If not, then stick to the pacers.

I get you totally. It's just that with the exception of the half I haven't had hard days in weeks. I'm more than happy to keep it that way. Thanks for the advice

skyblue46

clickerquicklic wrote: »

I'm obviously no expert but I think you'd be doing yourself an injustice running with the 4hour pacers. 1.40 half equates to a lot faster by most calculators and even the conservative double and add 20 mins would have you in around 3.40.

Some of the harder runs I've done are when I've ran purposely slower and felt like my stride had changed and I was limiting my natural movement hitting the ground harder and plodding along, my thinking is you don't wanna be out there running any longer than you have to!

Point taken, I too often find the slower runs more difficult. I'd be more than happy to run 3.59, enjoy the day, high 5 the kids roadside, take the whole day in.

Next year I can do speed sessions, intervals, speed work, pyramids, progressions et al and race the marathon for the best time I can do. This time I want to enjoy it as much as possible while running for so long.

ariana`

skyblue46 wrote: »

I get you totally. It's just that with the exception of the half I haven't had hard days in weeks. I'm more than happy to keep it that way. Thanks for the advice

I would enjoy it if i was you. I am jealous that it is effortless for you

But I don't think any of us are having 'hard' days in terms of pace really? Even MP is comfortably hard and i imagine it should be?

I imagine for subsequent marathons you could introduce more 'endurance speed' sessions but at this stage in the day there isn't much point really i'd say.

I think 'hard' at the moment for me anyhow is really the LSR, the length of time on my feet and the monotony of doing it on my own on lonely roads, it's mentally hard. If you're not finding the LSR hard then i really really do envy you :P You will fly it on the day and that must be a great feeling.

hot buttered scones

skyblue46 wrote: »

Point taken, I too often find the slower runs more difficult. I'd be more than happy to run 3.59, enjoy the day, high 5 the kids roadside, take the whole day in.

Next year I can do speed sessions, intervals, speed work, pyramids, progressions et al and race the marathon for the best time I can do. This time I want to enjoy it as much as possible while running for so long.

Yep - that's a great attitude. clickerquicklic is correct of course in that your half time would predict a faster marathon, but I think you have the right idea. Here's what I would suggest - go out a 4 hour pace. If you get to 15 miles feeling fresh, pick up the pace a bit. Save yourself one miles 20-22 were it gets a bit hilly and if you still feel good after Fosters Avenue push for home over the last four miles. You'll negative split, have a great day, post a good time and finish strong.
Conversely if you get to 15 and think you need the pacers to drag you along, then just keep going at 4 hour pace.

Edit: I'm repeating myself - sorry. I'd forgotten I'd already replied.

drkpower

skyblue46 wrote: »

Just a quick question for WW and his merry band of helpers. Once again it's a pace related question.

From the outset of this plan I have aimed for a 4 hour marathon. This aim has not changed and will not be changing. To date I have stuck pretty firmly to conservative paces for training and kept mileage consistently high. My LSRs have generally been between 9.40 and 10.00 min miles, my easy at 9.20/9.30 and my MP miles at about 9 mins/ml.

All has been going well so far and I did the half in 1.40.45 which is 7.41 per mile. Now because of increased fitness all my training paces feel easy. So do I continue to train at paces appropriate to a 4hr MP or in the light of my improved fitness should I increase paces to the point where I put myself in some difficulty in training?

clickerquicklic wrote: »

I'm obviously no expert but I think you'd be doing yourself an injustice running with the 4hour pacers. !

I tend to agree with Clicker in this one; that's pretty much my HM time and im aiming for a 3.40. Assuming you have been doing the right amount of mileage (and it looks like you have), you should have both the pace and endurance for a 3.40.

If i were you, i would slightly up the pace of my LSRs for the next two weeks (boards plan has them at 20m & 18m), and see how you go.


Another option i to split the difference and head out with the 3.50 pacers and see how you are halfway. Seems like you have way faster than 4hrs in you.

skyblue46

ariana` wrote: »

I would enjoy it if i was you. I am jealous that it is effortless for you

But I don't think any of us are having 'hard' days in terms of pace really? Even MP is comfortably hard and i imagine it should be?

I imagine for subsequent marathons you could introduce more 'endurance speed' sessions but at this stage in the day there isn't much point really i'd say.

I think 'hard' at the moment for me anyhow is really the LSR, the length of time on my feet and the monotony of doing it on my own on lonely roads, it's mentally hard. If you're not finding the LSR hard then i really really do envy you :P You will fly it on the day and that must be a great feeling.

Yep, the monotony is the hardest thing....oh and sore feet! Mine can get very sore on long runs....not blisters or chaffing but a pain in the ball of my foot from pounding the ground with my clumpy stride! It's the biggest worry I have about the big day. The only long run I did on the road I was sore from early. On Saturday it got bad at about mile 11. Can't see myself running 15 miles in pain!

You get what I mean about comfortably hard, not gut churning collapse in a heap hard!

Baby75

Huzzah! wrote: »

I couldn't disagree with this statement more. I can get over everything else and I feel somewhat bad for the organisers that things went as badly wrong as they did. But the water situation, to me, was the only unforgivable part.

I take exception to the implication that it's my own fault or that I didn't prepare adequately.

`

I also think we need to consider the circumstances, on an LSR on a normal day and not running your first half uphill, yes then you may not need much if any water esp if you're walking out your front door and well fed and hydrated

The late start could have impacted peoples fuel and hydration needs

Plus people did not bring any because they had stated they would have 4 water stations, I was going to leave my water in the car I am so glad I did not, it kept me going the last 4km to the finish

ariana`

skyblue46 wrote: »

Yep, the monotony is the hardest thing....oh and sore feet! Mine can get very sore on long runs....not blisters or chaffing but a pain in the ball of my foot from pounding the ground with my clumpy stride! It's the biggest worry I have about the big day. The only long run I did on the road I was sore from early. On Saturday it got bad at about mile 11. Can't see myself running 15 miles in pain!

You get what I mean about comfortably hard, not gut churning collapse in a heap hard!

Yeah 5k hard :eek: It's funny right now i'd kill to race a 5k but i know damn well 3k into a 5k race i'd be cursing and blinding and wishing the hell to be over :pac: :pac: :pac:

Do you roll your foot on a golf ball?

skyblue46

ariana` wrote: »

Yeah 5k hard :eek: It's funny right now i'd kill to race a 5k but i know damn well 3k into a 5k race i'd be cursing and blinding and wishing the hell to be over :pac: :pac: :pac:

Do you roll your foot on a golf ball?

Yep, 5k hard!!

No, I haven't tried that but right now I'd try anything. Just similar pressure to when foam rolling the legs?

Baby75

I was going to go run 2 to 3 miles recovery, but for some reason my right foot is sore came on when I was out walking just as well I am back with physio tonight

hot buttered scones

ariana` wrote: »

Yeah 5k hard :eek: It's funny right now i'd kill to race a 5k but i know damn well 3k into a 5k race i'd be cursing and blinding and wishing the hell to be over :pac: :pac: :pac:

Do you roll your foot on a golf ball?

Isn't that what all 5ks feel like?

skyblue46 wrote: »

Yep, 5k hard!!

No, I haven't tried that but right now I'd try anything. Just similar pressure to when foam rolling the legs?

The advice I was given regarding the golf ball was to only use it on the arches. Stand up and roll up and down on a line for each toe. If you hit a knot, just stop and apply a little bit more pressure until you feel it loosening. There's no need to dig in with it, just apply enough pressure when rolling so you feel it. I was also advised not to use it on the balls of my feet on on my heel because you could potentially damage the fat pads there.
I'd have to ask how old are your running shoes and do they have enough cushioning? it might be time to invest in a new pair so that you have them broken in for marathon day.

clickerquicklic

skyblue46 wrote: »

You get what I mean about comfortably hard, not gut churning collapse in a heap hard!

I must be a bit sadistic because I enjoy adding really hard sessions to my schedule , most of my interval sessions I'm right on the limit if I'm not feeling a bit nervous before starting them I know they are too easy. They then become a massive mental battle to keep going and not stop, I like beating my brain and continuing when I my mind is screaming stop your going to die!

When I complete these sessions I feel great that I've pushed passed that barrier , same with races I like leaving absolutely nothing out there , coming out of the Frank Duffy 10 mile I didn't race it but felt a bit meh afterwards , I hate thinking afterwards I probably could of ran x but did y . I'll be leaving absolutely nothing out there on the DCM course if my heart rate hasn't hit 200BPM and I'm not on the verge of collapsing i'll trash myself till I cross the line in a heap .

skyblue46

Baby75 wrote: »

`

I also think we need to consider the circumstances, on an LSR on a normal day and not running your first half uphill, yes then you may not need much if any water esp if you're walking out your front door and well fed and hydrated

The late start could have impacted peoples fuel and hydration needs

Plus people did not bring any because they had stated they would have 4 water stations, I was going to leave my water in the car I am so glad I did not, it kept me going the last 4km to the finish

I get you. I was unaware at the time that all water supplies had run out. My comment was in relation to the missing water station at Man o War and the Lucozade station.

hot buttered scones

drkpower wrote: »

I tend to agree with Clicker in this one; that's pretty much my HM time and im aiming for a 3.40. Assuming you have been doing the right amount of mileage (and it looks like you have), you should have both the pace and endurance for a 3.40.

If i were you, i would slightly up the pace of my LSRs for the next two weeks (boards plan has them at 20m & 18m), and see how you go.


Another option i to split the difference and head out with the 3.50 pacers and see how you are halfway. Seems like you have way faster than 4hrs in you.

You could start the long run off at normal LSR pace, and just pick up the pace gradually over the run. Not by loads - so for example if your LSRs are normally done@9:30, do the first 7 miles at that pace, then gradually increase to 9:00 for the next few miles, and finish off with about 5 miles@ 8:30 to 8:40 (or something like that). If the pace feels too fast at any stage, then just back off to normal LSR pace.

skyblue46

hot buttered scones wrote: »

Isn't that what all 5ks feel like?



The advice I was given regarding the golf ball was to only use it on the arches. Stand up and roll up and down on a line for each toe. If you hit a knot, just stop and apply a little bit more pressure until you feel it loosening. There's no need to dig in with it, just apply enough pressure when rolling so you feel it. I was also advised not to use it on the balls of my feet on on my heel because you could potentially damage the fat pads there.
I'd have to ask how old are your running shoes and do they have enough cushioning? it might be time to invest in a new pair so that you have them broken in for marathon day.

Currently alternating between 2 pairs both with about 150 miles on them. Those and my Kayanos before were all worn on days where my foot was a problem. Will be getting a new pair but I don't think they are the problem. I think it's just that bones and joints suffer just as much as muscles and ligaments as distances run increase dramatically, which mine did.

hot buttered scones

skyblue46 wrote: »

Currently alternating between 2 pairs both with about 150 miles on them. Those and my Kayanos before were all worn on days where my foot was a problem. Will be getting a new pair but I don't think they are the problem. I think it's just that bones and joints suffer just as much as muscles and ligaments as distances run increase dramatically, which mine did.

Ok - that seems reasonable. Yeah, there's loads of little muscles and fibres in the feet that also need strengthening. Anytime I've ever had an issue like I think your describing its been down to worn out shoes (I think so anyway). Try the golf ball, or if thats too hard you can even start with a tennis ball.

scotindublin

There was always going to come a time when goals were going to be reassessed so I am going to share with you some experiences from DCM 2016.

My times from race series 10 mile and 1/2 were:

10 mile 1.16.16
1/2 1.40.08

So it looks like there are a few here about the same.

My last 4 LSRS were.

19 miles @ 5.46 per km
21 miles @ 5.36 per km
16 miles @ 5.31 per km
20 miles @ 5.42 per km

As you can see from above not a model pupil on the art of the LSR (apologies time is in km as I just pulled this straight from Garmin). The only run I struggled on was the 20 Miler which I completed on a miserable Thursday evening on my own after work (it was miserable and this was the only run I considered bailing on). Most of the time through training my goal was to break 4hrs. As the marathon approached I started to think 3.50 or 3.40 was possible. Probably some niavity here from me as training had gone so well!

After some procrastination I decided to go with the 3.40 pacers on marathon day I was feeling good (apart from the normal pre race jitters) and thought it was achievable. So apprrox 5.12 per km pace.

No major blips along the way and was pretty much on pace for 20 miles ( looking back the signs had been there for a few miles that the effort was increasing.....my mind was struck on the time when I should have been doing my systems checks).

Really struggled for the next three or four miles where it became a mental battle to get through it; I won't lie when I say there were a few dark moments which were also not helped when it is like the walking wounded all around you. Had to give myself a couple of gee ups to keep moving forward. The marathon can be lonely place when it gets tough.

Looking back on the day would I have been better going with the 3.50 or 4 hours pacers and pushing on? Probably.....would I have gotten the same time (3.46.xx) a good chance that would have happened.....would I have enjoyed it more.....100% definitely.

I would just urge everyone to be sensible....it is easy to get caught up in a time; the marathon is a helluva beast at the end of the day. Embrace it for what it is; enjoy it as much as you can.....high 5 the kids along the route and interact with the crowds if that's your thing (who is getting their name printed on their running top???).

You never get a second chance to run your first marathon.....would you rather flog yourself to the point where it is not enjoyable for the sake of 10 minutes or enjoy the event learn from it and build for the next one?

As mrsscotindublin always said to me you are not going to win the marathon so what are you worried about.

One funny thing about the DCM16 was that in the video shots myself and WW were nearly joined at the hip for the middle of it and didn't realise.

Apologies for the epic post!

hot buttered scones

scotindublin wrote: »

There was always going to come a time when goals were going to be reassessed so I am going to share with you some experiences from DCM 2016.

My times from race series 10 mile and 1/2 were:

10 mile 1.16.16
1/2 1.40.08

So it looks like there are a few here about the same.

My last 4 LSRS were.

19 miles @ 5.46 per km
21 miles @ 5.36 per km
16 miles @ 5.31 per km
20 miles @ 5.42 per km

As you can see from above not a model pupil on the art of the LSR (apologies time is in km as I just pulled this straight from Garmin). The only run I struggled on was the 20 Miler which I completed on a miserable Thursday evening on my own after work (it was miserable and this was the only run I considered bailing on). Most of the time through training my goal was to break 4hrs. As the marathon approached I started to think 3.50 or 3.40 was possible. Probably some niavity here from me as training had gone so well!

After some procrastination I decided to go with the 3.40 pacers on marathon day I was feeling good (apart from the normal pre race jitters) and thought it was achievable. So apprrox 5.12 per km pace.

No major blibs along the way and was pretty much on pace for 20 miles ( looking back the signs had been there for a few miles that the effort was increasing.....my mind was struck on the time when I should have been doing my systems checks).

Really struggled for the next three or four miles where it became a mental battle to get through it; I won't lie when I say there were a few dark moments which were also not helped when it is like the walking wounded all around you. Had to give myself a couple of gee ups to keep moving forward. The marathon can be lonely place when it gets tough.

Looking back on the day would I have been better going with the 3.50 or 4 hours pacers and pushing on? Probably.....would I have gotten the same time (3.46.xx) a good chance that would have happened.....would I have enjoyed it more.....100% definitely.

I would just urge everyone to be sensible....it is easy to get caught up in a time; the marathon is a helluva beast at the end of the day. Embrace it for what it is; enjoy it as much as you can.....high 5 the kids along the route and interact with the crowds if that's your thing (who is getting their name printed on their running top???).

You never get your chance to run your first marathon.....would you rather flog yourself to the point where it is not enjoyable for the sake of 10 minutes or enjoy the event learn from it and build for the next one?

As mrsscotindublin always said to me you are not going to win the marathon so what are you worried about.

One funny thing about the DCM16 was that in the video shots myself and WW were nearly joined at the hip for the middle of it and didn't realise.

Apologies for the epic post!

Excellent post. Listen to this guy.

If I might add something:

Cork 2015: Didn't really have a half to go by, but I though sub 4 was achievable. Started out at 4 hour pace. Felt good at 15 miles, so picked it up a bit. Got over the tricky bit at miles 21-22 and flogged myself for the last 4 miles to run just under 3:50. One of the best days of my life. Felt like I was winning the bloody thing as I ran down Patrick Street in the rain to the finish line. I'll never forget the feeling with 4 miles to go that I could jog it in and still reach my goal time.

Dublin 2015:

Got notions after posting some decent race times and went out with the 3:30 group. Totally fell apart at 20 miles and jog/walked the last 6 miles in pain. Still ran just under 3:39 but had an awful end to the day which shook my confidence and my recovery was slow. Had I gone out with the 3:40 pace group (which was my original plan) I'd have had a much better day and probably posted the same time.

Candamir

Weekly report.

Mon 4m easy @ 8:52
Tue 9m pace @ 8:56, pilates
Wed 5m easy @9:17
Fri 18m LSR @ 9:22
Sat 3m recovery @10:07

This was my 4th week back (with no step back) after a 2 week lay off, with some fairly significant ramping up of miles, and with my longest ever LSR ahead of me, I thought I should take the mid week runs a bit easier, so swapped my usual Monday 'tempo' run for an 'easier' run.
Good week. The LSR went well. Definitely felt I could have kept going (apart from the urgent need to go to the loo - hope that doesn't become a thing!)
I was away for the race series HM, and was reading the 'pre race fiasco' posts on Saturday morning and feeling sorry for you lot but not so sorry for myself anymore! Went on what looked like an easy jaunt up to a park not far from where I was staying to run a few recovery laps. Jebus there were horrendous hills that my post 18m legs didn't thank me for :75+meter ascent in about 1/4mile.
Later in the day reading the reports of great race times despite the less than ideal conditions had me back to feeling jealous. So well done all who managed to overcome the chaos and get through the race.

Heading into a step back week now, and then just one more 'long' LSR (20m) before the taper. Can hardly believe it. We're almost there!! My physio told me during the week that my hip issue would probably be gone if I'd eased off/stopped the running, but they're happy for me to keep running, and they'll keep me together for the marathon. I feel like I'm being held together with bandaids ATM - much like my favourite (since I was a kid) Mr Men character Mr Bump!! I'm guessing I'm not the only one. Hang in there guys

positron

Last few pages have been exceptionally informative. Thank you all for these.

Just a quick question about the more mundane aspects of the big day itself, especially since how it all played out around Newbridge.. What's the 'getting to the start line' situation for the Marathon day. With 20k running, are trains etc going to be touch and go to get in? Specials buses perhaps for us in the commuter belt? How was it dealt with last few years? Also getting out after the big jog is also a concern. Trying to find a solution that is least bother, other than staying in town the night before. Thanks!

Sheep1978

Cheers for that post scotindublin. My times and LSRs are all very similar to you so plenty of food
For thought

scotindublin

Where are you travelling from Positron? I was lucky in that I was dropped at the back of Trinity and just walked down to Merrion Square. I didn't hear of any issues with reaching the start line last year......the only issue I remember was a stray Guarda Motorbike left on the road for the elite start!

Saw plenty of folks hopping on the LUAS at Heuston to get to the start.

Last Nightlink home after post marathon beers?? I must admit I had three lovely pints after the marathon last year.....was strangely not hungry though!

positron wrote: »

Last few pages have been exceptionally informative. Thank you all for these.

Just a quick question about the more mundane aspects of the big day itself, especially since how it all played out around Newbridge.. What's the 'getting to the start line' situation for the Marathon day. With 20k running, are trains etc going to be touch and go to get in? Specials buses perhaps for us in the commuter belt? How was it dealt with last few years? Also getting out after the big jog is also a concern. Trying to find a solution that is least bother, other than staying in town the night before. Thanks!

Damo 2k9

Some seriously good posts in the last couple of pages. Like some others im questioning my Marathon time after the half on Saturday, but from reading the advice im just going to enjoy the day as there will always be more marathons that I can do and chase PBs in, but I can never re-do my first one. I think if I done the boards plan from the start that id be in a better position to chase 3:30 or 3:40, but hey ho theres always next year!

I had enough left for a sprint as we turned into the gate on Saturday, id love to be able to do that on the big day but its seriously doubtful haha. A lot of people I work with and mates etc just thought it was me going for a couple of runs while doing my training, now showing them the route for the full and my strava from the half they have completely changed their tone haha. I think about it all the time that it really is a beast that should be shown respect, and not one where I think I could run like I could on Saturday.

Baby75

Some great information posted thanks so much

statina

Hi there

Weekly update

Tue- 6 mile- 9.48 per min

Thur- 4 Mile- 10.20 per min

Sat- Dublin half marathon- 2.16 - 10.30 per minute. PB!! By about 2 minutes so nothing special but I'll take it!!

Had all the same issues as everyone else- took 2 and a half hours to get there with what should have been a 30 minute journey, etc etc etc!!! Took another 2 hours to get home which involved leaving through a make shift exit!! Was fairly annoyed with the whole thing but now that the dust has settled, Im beginning to see the funny side to certain aspects of it!! Fair play to the locals, they were fantastic.

Lessons to learn from the half- I went out too fast for the first 2 miles and then felt it from mile 4-7. I found miles 10-12 very tough, mentally I struggled with these which was disappointing. The mental aspect will be definitely my biggest hurdle to overcome on marathon day.

Positives of the race- I ran the whole race and didn't stop once. I also put a burst on for the last 800 metres which was encouraging. I was annoyed with myself that I couldn't pick up the pace from mile 10-12 as I had planned but think I had spent all my energy trying to get up them hills!!

20 mile lsr this saturday. Can't wait to get it over and done with. To be honest I'm looking forward to getting through the marathon and be done with it!! Really looking forward to getting back to park run!!

Well done to everyone, there is fantastic running happening. Fair play to the runners who are still going strong even with their various injuries, ye are extremely inspirational.

Battery Kinzie

Well done to all on the weekend, especially those who were out in Donabate!

I actually managed to make it out myself and seemingly got quite lucky in that I left later than I had wanted, and the traffic had already built up a lot by then, so I knew to avoid by going the back roads. Seemed a bit of a disaster for most though, but they've always put on great races so they deserve some leeway. Anyway, enough has been written about all that I'm sure.

Long story short, I managed to come in around 1:29, which I'm obviously very happy with. I did my usual of taking it handy(ish) for the first half of the race and then I started to pick it up a bit after Man O War. One of my favourite things about races is figuring out my estimated finishing time at current pace, along with what pace I'd need to do to hit X goal (a bit dorky, I know). I was at that a lot with this race, especially with the awkwardness of having hills pretty much all in the first half, but then a bit of a headwind for the second half. I'm really not great at 'holding on' to a pace faster than I should be doing, so I guess being able to know what pace I need to be doing to keep the goal within a sprint finish (relatively - a 'sprint' finish could be the last 5k, as it was on Saturday!) at the end is useful.

So looking forward, I think I'll just go out at 3:20 on the day itself (possibly even 3:25), and pick it up as I go along. The big disappointment from Saturday was a recurrence of a previous injury, which although I know I can get rid of in a couple of days, I'm afraid of it coming back on the big day (I'd be very surprised if it didn't tbh).

Anyway, we'll see how it all goes over the next week or two. Well done all again, and good to see those not doing the race getting their long runs in. Not long to go now.

Baby75

Battery Kinzie wow great time well done

leesider77

I'd like to also echo the thanks for the all the expert advice the past few days. I'm not one of the speed demons of the group and have low expectations on time but it's good to be reminded that the main thing is to enjoy the day first and foremost.

Battery Kinzie

Baby75 wrote: »

Battery Kinzie wow great time well done

Cheers! I'm in the perfect demographic though for running, so it's all relative I guess.