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Eircode - its implemetation (merged)

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    #1232
    sondagefaux
    Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭sondagefaux


    92% of applications to SUSI used Eircodes, allowing its staff and contractors to save an average of 2 minutes per application, about a week's worth of work for one individual.

    Companies or organisations processing large amounts of address data will hopefully take note.


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    #1233
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,135 ✭✭✭plodder


    ukoda wrote: »
    You're completely off topic trying to start an arguement, what private company makes money off a park?? Yes the state invested and that's why it should get a return.

    How long am I prepared to wait? What level of control do you think I have over that?
    I think you agree that google maps support is central to the success of Eircode. So, how long are you prepared to wait for this support before you decide the project is a failure? 2 years? 5 years?
    You're just trolling now.
    That's just silly. You know I am quite serious about this issue.

    By the way, do you have a link to Autoaddress saying the app would be free forever?


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    #1234
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    plodder wrote: »
    I think you agree that google maps support is central to the success of Eircode. So, how long are you prepared to wait for this support before you decide the project is a failure? 2 years? 5 years.

    By the way, do you have a link to Autoaddress saying the app would be free forever?

    google maps implementation is key to the widespread consumer adoption of eircode. If google maps does take 5 years to implement it, then I would be very annoyed at Google, but my opinion of eircode won't change. How quickly do Google have to implement it for you to declare eircode a success?
    No matter what happens you will prob move your arguement along to the next thing to complain about, you're negative towards eircode and nothing will change your mind. Do you want it to fail so you can declare yourself right?

    On the app, multiple people have asked them if it's to be a paid for app and they have said no. Also, your words include "forever". what I said was "they have said they dont intend to charge for it" intentions could change. And I'm not here to provide you with "proof", if you want to know for yourself, ask them.


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    #1235
    clewbays
    Closed Accounts Posts: 148 ✭✭clewbays


    plodder wrote: »
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/96-of-logistics-and-shipping-firms-do-not-use-eircode-402180.html

    Ouch!

    Anyone know when the survey was conducted – the reports on the CBRE and Analytiqa websites do not give any details apart from stating that the survey only covered the logistics and shipping industries. How many of the 53 respondents are FTAI members?


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    #1236
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,135 ✭✭✭plodder


    ukoda wrote: »
    google maps implementation is key to the widespread consumer adoption of eircode. If google maps does take 5 years to implement it, then I would be very annoyed at Google, but my opinion of eircode won't change. How quickly do Google have to implement it for you to declare eircode a success?
    No matter what happens you will prob move your arguement along to the next thing to complain about, you're negative towards eircode and nothing will change your mind. Do you want it to fail so you can declare yourself right?
    I've been consistent all along and I think one of few people here who acknowledge the good and bad about it. While I would have done it differently, I think there is a possibility of it working if they release a free dataset. If nothing else it would allow people to implement it on top of google maps ahead of google doing it.
    On the app, multiple people have asked them if it's to be a paid for app and they have said no. Also, your words include "forever". what I said was "they have said they dont intend to charge for it" intentions could change. And I'm not here to provide you with "proof", if you want to know for yourself, ask them.
    Fair enough. It's just I wouldn't be investing much effort in the use of the app without some kind of assurance that it will remain free to use and is okay for commercial use. It does the same job as Eircode's own finder, but the finder is limited to 15 lookups per day and is not supposed to be used commercially.
    Clewbays wrote:
    Anyone know when the survey was conducted – the reports on the CBRE and Analytiqa websites do not give any details apart from stating that the survey only covered the logistics and shipping industries. How many of the 53 respondents are FTAI members?
    Don't know. I tried to get the survey off the CBRE website but it looks like you need to be registered with them


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    #1237
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    The survey was conducted at the start of the year, before the industry got the demo of SAC's


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    #1238
    12Phase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,040 ✭✭✭12Phase


    ukoda wrote: »
    google maps implementation is key to the widespread consumer adoption of eircode. If google maps does take 5 years to implement it, then I would be very annoyed at Google, but my opinion of eircode won't change. How quickly do Google have to implement it for you to declare eircode a success?
    No matter what happens you will prob move your arguement along to the next thing to complain about, you're negative towards eircode and nothing will change your mind. Do you want it to fail so you can declare yourself right?

    On the app, multiple people have asked them if it's to be a paid for app and they have said no. Also, your words include "forever". what I said was "they have said they dont intend to charge for it" intentions could change. And I'm not here to provide you with "proof", if you want to know for yourself, ask them.

    Google Maps is a free service. Not much to be annoyed about.


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    #1239
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,390 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    ukoda wrote: »
    You're completely off topic trying to start an arguement, what private company makes money off a park?? Yes the state invested and that's why it should get a return.

    How long am I prepared to wait? What level of control do you think I have over that?

    You're just trolling now.

    Mod: Ukoda take a warning. It is not acceptable to accuse a poster of trolling just because they do not agree with you.

    By the way, do not reply to this on thread - PM me if you have issues.


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    #1240
    sondagefaux
    Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭sondagefaux


    plodder wrote: »
    sondagefaux wrote: »
    I don't really see the point in this type of argument. Once upon a time water usage wasn't metered in England or paid for out of user charges. Almost any service could become chargeable in the future whether it's now state owned or not.
    If they intend to keep the app free then they could say that..
    Yes, but they could change their minds in the future. I'm pretty sure that successive Irish governments intended to keep domestic water usage free at the point of use forever. Then the economy tanked, Ireland had to seek a bailout from the Troika and one of the conditions they imposed was water charges. There's no point in AutoAddress saying that they're going to keep this app free since they can't predict what might happen in the future to change that stance.


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    #1241
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    https://www.autoaddress.ie/blog/autoaddressblog/2016/06/02/winning-with-eircode---delivery-and-logistics


    An interesting read, it does seem like a real solution for the industry


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    #1242
    MBSnr
    Registered Users Posts: 2,187 ✭✭✭MBSnr


    https://twitter.com/autoaddress/status/740141737918750720


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    #1243
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    Add Laya health insurance to the list of companies using eircode too


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    #1244
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    SIRO (ESB and Vodafone's broadband) are asking people for thier eircode on Twitter when they enquire about coverage

    Primary school teachers have been issued an instruction from the department to collect pupils eircodes as part of their records

    Oh and these guys exist:

    https://www.locationlotto.ie


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    #1245
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Got a letter from social welfare through the door today with our Eircode on it. Didn't recognise the name but it was the first bit of official post I've seen with it. They must have populated it automatically on address information they got years ago from a previous resident, either that or someone is trying to commit welfare fraud with our address!


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    #1246
    clewbays
    Closed Accounts Posts: 148 ✭✭clewbays


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Got a letter from social welfare through the door today with our Eircode on it. Didn't recognise the name but it was the first bit of official post I've seen with it. They must have populated it automatically on address information they got years ago from a previous resident, either that or someone is trying to commit welfare fraud with our address!

    If your address is unique then it would have been assigned an Eircode by Autoaddress ahead of the July 2015 launch when they were encoding major public sector databases.

    What name did you not recognise?


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    #1247
    Bray Head
    Registered Users Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    I got an email from a group who want to set up an Educate Together Secondary School in Dublin city.

    They were about the submit 4.5k expressions of interest from parents. I had signed up with them 2 years ago but now they are saying that DES are insisting that all addresses are accompanied by an eircode.

    This is a very good thing. With the right tools it will really aid location of a site that is in best proximity to where the students live.


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    #1248
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,135 ✭✭✭plodder


    Bray Head wrote: »
    I got an email from a group who want to set up an Educate Together Secondary School in Dublin city.

    They were about the submit 4.5k expressions of interest from parents. I had signed up with them 2 years ago but now they are saying that DES are insisting that all addresses are accompanied by an eircode.

    This is a very good thing. With the right tools it will really aid location of a site that is in best proximity to where the students live.
    No question, the eircodes will be very useful for the dept. but why shouldn't they be useful to the parents group as well? Why shouldn't they be able to use this system that is costing us, the taxpayers 38 million? It is most unlikely that an ad-hoc group like this would be able to get an Eircode license.

    Two counter examples.

    1. With the UK postcode, the parents would just collect all of the postcodes and sort them immediately showing the rough locations of everyone and how many families live in each area. Publicly available maps would show what the local postcodes in a particular area are. This would give them independent information to bring to the DOE and argue their case, rather than just trusting any analysis done by the dept.

    2. The suggested improvement of Eircode would achieve the same thing. If the 4.5k eircodes were mapped to small area codes using the free dataset you could then do the same sorting and mapping job as with 1. No special software or hi-tech skills are required - just access to the data.


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    #1249
    Bray Head
    Registered Users Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    I have no argument with you on #2. As we all know eircode was set up to minimise exchequer cost. If the current model was not used there would be many headlines with 'Eircode project costs xxxxm scandal'. Costs are obviously central and tangible while benefits are dispersed and harder to quantify. And newspapers need easy stories to get the public upset about.


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    #1250
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,135 ✭✭✭plodder


    Bray Head wrote: »
    I have no argument with you on #2. As we all know eircode was set up to minimise exchequer cost. If the current model was not used there would be many headlines with 'Eircode project costs xxxxm scandal'. Costs are obviously central and tangible while benefits are dispersed and harder to quantify. And newspapers need easy stories to get the public upset about.
    True about the last sentence, but consider this. The single pricing model for Eircode has meant prices being set that are possibly too low for the people who jumped at adopting it, and clearly too high for those who aren't happy. We now apparently are trying to tinker with it, to fix that for specific applications like navigation.

    Are we going to have to go through this ordeal every time someone dreams up a new use for postcodes? What about voluntary, ad-hoc groups like this one? How will that kind of usage ever be accommodated?

    I could be wrong, but I think all or most of the licensees that have jumped on Eircode so far, are interested in address validation primarily. Nobody is saying that that usage should be free.

    We have a lamentable record of commercialising public data here. My personal view is it should just be given away for free and the economic multplier will kick in, but even in the case (as here) where costs have to be covered directly, it is still clearly possible to do that, and maybe even do better.


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    #1251
    Bray Head
    Registered Users Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    When capita's license runs out (2025?) might be the occasion to do this.


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    #1252
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,390 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Well, look what happened to the East Link bridge. When the licence reverted to DCC, did they remove the toll? No they did not and the congestion at Beckett Bridge shows the knock on of that.


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    #1253
    Bray Head
    Registered Users Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Well, look what happened to the East Link bridge. When the licince reverted to DCC, did they remove the toll? No they did not and the congestion at Beckett Bridge shows the knock on of that.
    These situations are not even vaguely analogous.

    The East Link is a piece of physical infrastructure. At capacity it is a rival good - your use of it limits mine.

    Eircode is a piece of non-physical infrastructure. It is not a rival good. Your use of it does not limit mine.


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    #1254
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    plodder wrote: »
    Why shouldn't they be able to use this system that is costing us, the taxpayers 38 million?
    Because if everyone was able to use it at no cost, it would cost the taxpayers a lot more.
    It is most unlikely that an ad-hoc group like this would be able to get an Eircode license.
    They don't need an Eircode licence. They can sign up with any of the resellers listed on the Eircode website, and pay as they go.


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    #1255
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,135 ✭✭✭plodder


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Because if everyone was able to use it at no cost, it would cost the taxpayers a lot more. They don't need an Eircode licence. They can sign up with any of the resellers listed on the Eircode website, and pay as they go.
    I'm not saying everyone should be able to use it at no cost. So, I guess that invalidates everything else you are saying ....


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    #1256
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    plodder wrote: »
    I'm not saying everyone should be able to use it at no cost. So, I guess that invalidates everything else you are saying ....
    If your point wasn't that they should be able to use it at no cost, then your point was that they should be able to use it. They can use it. So, I guess that invalidates everything else you are saying...


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    #1257
    12Phase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,040 ✭✭✭12Phase


    My only observation is that it took a long, long time for the UK to see ubiquitous use of postcodes. It could easily take 5 to 10 years to see similar level of usage of eircodes in Ireland.

    Companies won't adapt systems other than on a need-to-do basis. So, they might consider putting in eircode when they're upgrading logistics systems or databases. They're not going to rush out and do it unless it's something that's a major cost saver or, there's a general upgrade going on.

    Consumers will probably pick up use of the codes as they become more useful. It shouldn't take as long as the UK rollout in the old days as things are *much* more computer-centric and people do a lot more interacting with online maps than they ever have.

    I wouldn't really write it off as a failure just because it hasn't seen huge adoption at this stage.

    I still don't think it's a great system in the sense that they could have made the routing codes a hell of a lot more logical than they did. I don't understand what their thought process was on it. It could have easily had 4-character routing codes that linked to sensible sized areas so that the codes would have been useful without databases, but they didn't so we are where are.


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    #1258
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    clewbays wrote: »
    TheChizler wrote: »
    Got a letter from social welfare through the door today with our Eircode on it. Didn't recognise the name but it was the first bit of official post I've seen with it. They must have populated it automatically on address information they got years ago from a previous resident, either that or someone is trying to commit welfare fraud with our address!

    If your address is not unique then it would have been assigned an Eircode by Autoaddress ahead of the July 2015 launch when they were encoding major public sector databases.

    What name did you not recognise?
    I think it was the other way around, they only encoded the unique addressed in the databases in order to avoid error.

    I didn't recognise the name of the person the letter was addressed to, and our list of previous tenants' forwarding addresses didn't have it either.


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    #1259
    BailMeOut
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭BailMeOut


    Ambulance couldn’t find house in rural area due to poor signage


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    #1260
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,390 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    This is a separate point. Eircode does not help those without access to the database find a property - whether they have the Eircode or not. Armed with just the non-unique address (and sometimes a unique address) find a property.

    Every local road in every townland should be given a name or number, and every house should have a distance based number measured from one end of the road. Result would be end of non-unique addresses.


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    #1261
    BailMeOut
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭BailMeOut


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Eircode does not help those without access to the database find a property

    true but a device with eircode could be installed in every ambulance, fire truck and garda car. We have the infrastructure in place and it now just needs to be adopted and used.


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