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Eircode - its implemetation (merged)

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    #1202
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    If eircode wants to be as useful as the UK postcode for delivery (sorting and routing), then they need to release a dataset FOC, and freely usable which contains a list of all Eircodes, the SAC for each, and a list of centroid locations for each SAC. How the SACs are labeled is less important (if it's a free reuse license) because the work that others have done (like AutoAddress) can be used then

    you seem to be under the mistaken belief that the UK PAF is license free , it is not


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    #1203
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    as a supplier to the logistics software industry ( specialised logistics solutions) I can tell you that the main courier comvpnaie are very slow to roll out updates to their van drivers systems. Often the main large couriers are using custom versions designed for them with international multi country rollout or the smaller couriers are using semi off the shelf systems ( or fairly esoteric small bespoke systems )

    IN all cases implementing roll outs to include EIrcode lookup is very low on their priority , there is a somewhat chicken and egg issue as well in that with fewer people using eircode, courier companies see little advantage in rushing to implement systems around it

    plodder is correct is saying that their have been issue over eircodes licensing, initially it was too restrictive, too expensive and not well thought out , That has changed too some degree and more flexible pricing models are being considered

    remember part of the issue is that GeoDirectories is essentially owned by An Post ( and the OSI) and ANpost is antagonistic to Eircode


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    #1204
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,149 ✭✭✭plodder


    BoatMad wrote: »
    you seem to be under the mistaken belief that the UK PAF is license free , it is not
    Where did I mention the PAF? The dataset containing the location of every postcode is free of charge, and that's all you need for sorting, routing (and navigating) based on postcode.


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    #1205
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    Seems there's a different story being told here


    https://twitter.com/gamma_irl/status/736195731388805120


    30k3xhx.jpg


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    #1206
    byrnefm
    Registered Users Posts: 888 ✭✭✭byrnefm


    Has there been any word from any SatNav company in relation to Eircode support? That alone would improve its uptake big time, IMO.


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    #1207
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    byrnefm wrote: »
    Has there been any word from any SatNav company in relation to Eircode support? That alone would improve its uptake big time, IMO.

    It's google maps that will make it take off, sat navs are a rapidly declining market as seen by TomTom going from hundreds of millions in profit to tens of millions in loss over the last decade. They are on the way back up now but only because they diversified into being a mapping provider and focusing on in car navigation (which is again under threat from things like apple's car play and googles equivalent)


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    #1208
    12Phase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,040 ✭✭✭12Phase


    Soooo many apps actually hang off google maps too.

    Apple Maps is probably the only other significant one which many people use without necessarily realising what it is as its just built into iOS.


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    #1209
    Bray Head
    Registered Users Posts: 894 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    ukoda wrote: »
    byrnefm wrote: »
    Has there been any word from any SatNav company in relation to Eircode support? That alone would improve its uptake big time, IMO.

    It's google maps that will make it take off, sat navs are a rapidly declining market as seen by TomTom going from hundreds of millions in profit to tens of millions in loss over the last decade. They are on the way back up now but only because they diversified into being a mapping provider and focusing on in car navigation (which is again under threat from things like apple's car play and googles equivalent)
    I am not so sure. Sales have declined simply as penetration of in-car satnavs has levelled off. I don't see a need to replace mine for the next ten years.

    A smartphone is not really a substitute for a proper satnav I find. The only real advantage now is that with google maps you are more likely to be able to find something than on a satnav. Once both have eircode that advantage disappears.


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    #1210
    Bray Head
    Registered Users Posts: 894 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    12Phase wrote: »

    It's obvious the state wanted a pays-for-itself and possibly a nice little revenue stream rather than an open system.
    Yes but the alternative would have been terminal newspaper headlines on "State spends wastes xm on something quite useful consultants".

    Fear of misrepresentation by lazy journalists looking for a cheap FOI-driven story drives a lot of models for pubic service delivery.


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    #1211
    scas100
    Registered Users Posts: 28 ✭scas100


    sorry cant figure how to quote

    BoatMad as a supplier to the logistics software industry ( specialised logistics solutions) I can tell you that the main courier comvpnaie are very slow to roll out updates to their van drivers systems. Often the main large couriers are using custom versions designed for them with international multi country rollout or the smaller couriers are using semi off the shelf systems ( or fairly esoteric small bespoke systems )


    i work for several courier companies-not freight companies-and i can say neither dpd, fastway, gls, ups or nightline, who are the main courier companies in ireland, do not and will not pay for any eircodes. reason being its up to the driver to deliver the packages and if hes used up his 15 goes a day, from his point of view, why should he have to pay for them. also ive noticed that out of say 10 eircodes written on packages 3 or 4 are usually wrong. this may be because people type them in wrong but because of that not one courier i know would trust them.


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    #1212
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    scas100 wrote: »
    sorry cant figure how to quote

    BoatMad as a supplier to the logistics software industry ( specialised logistics solutions) I can tell you that the main courier comvpnaie are very slow to roll out updates to their van drivers systems. Often the main large couriers are using custom versions designed for them with international multi country rollout or the smaller couriers are using semi off the shelf systems ( or fairly esoteric small bespoke systems )


    i work for several courier companies-not freight companies-and i can say neither dpd, fastway, gls, ups or nightline, who are the main courier companies in ireland, do not and will not pay for any eircodes. reason being its up to the driver to deliver the packages and if hes used up his 15 goes a day, from his point of view, why should he have to pay for them. also ive noticed that out of say 10 eircodes written on packages 3 or 4 are usually wrong. this may be because people type them in wrong but because of that not one courier i know would trust them.

    Have the drivers heard about the Autoaddress App that has no 15 per day limit?

    I'm not sure I follow your post really, Nightline, Fastway and DPD have all made public statements that they are upgrading their systems to include eircode


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    #1213
    sondagefaux
    Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭sondagefaux


    scas100 wrote: »
    sorry cant figure how to quote

    BoatMad as a supplier to the logistics software industry ( specialised logistics solutions) I can tell you that the main courier comvpnaie are very slow to roll out updates to their van drivers systems. Often the main large couriers are using custom versions designed for them with international multi country rollout or the smaller couriers are using semi off the shelf systems ( or fairly esoteric small bespoke systems )


    i work for several courier companies-not freight companies-and i can say neither dpd, fastway, gls, ups or nightline, who are the main courier companies in ireland, do not and will not pay for any eircodes. reason being its up to the driver to deliver the packages and if hes used up his 15 goes a day, from his point of view, why should he have to pay for them. also ive noticed that out of say 10 eircodes written on packages 3 or 4 are usually wrong. this may be because people type them in wrong but because of that not one courier i know would trust them.

    It's pretty easy to check whether an Eircode's right or wrong - just type it into the Autoaddress App (available free of charge from the Google Play Store or the Apple apps store) and check if it's correct or not.

    There are no limits on the number of Eircodes that can be used with the Autoaddress App.

    If you're delivering in areas that you're not familiar with, with hard to find addresses, the Autoaddress App is a free, and easy to use app that will save you time and money. If I ran a courier business I would get it downloaded to every driver's phone and make sure that they use it, rather than spending time (which is money when they're being paid for that time) phoning people for directions.


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    #1214
    12Phase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,040 ✭✭✭12Phase


    Bray Head wrote: »
    I am not so sure. Sales have declined simply as penetration of in-car satnavs has levelled off. I don't see a need to replace mine for the next ten years.

    A smartphone is not really a substitute for a proper satnav I find. The only real advantage now is that with google maps you are more likely to be able to find something than on a satnav. Once both have eircode that advantage disappears.

    If you've a good sized smartphone, and a window mount google maps is vastly better than any sat nav I've used and it has solid traffic information and rerouting and it's always up to date.

    Apple maps is OK but I would still default to Google Maps on an iPhone.

    iOS CarPlay Android Auto will be fully integrating with your car's display on an increasing number if cars. That's going to be ubiquitous in a few years.

    The processing power and data connectivity packed into any typical high end smartphone is massive compared to a stand alone sat nav device.

    I think other than very specialised applications like marine and sports use, the sat nav is going to way of the standalone word processor.


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    #1215
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    Bray Head wrote: »
    I am not so sure. Sales have declined simply as penetration of in-car satnavs has levelled off. I don't see a need to replace mine for the next ten years.

    When I say 'in car' sat navs I mean pre-installed in the cars entertainment console, not the one you buy in the shop and put in your car, sales of those have discended into dismal levels and I wouldn't say it's due to penetration of the market, TomTom and Garmin themselves say it's due to the availability of free smartphone map apps. The type of sat nav you buy yourself in the shop is about a decade away from extinction I'd say

    Garmin and TomToms business models have both completely shifted away focus from those markets


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    #1216
    scas100
    Registered Users Posts: 28 ✭scas100


    ukoda wrote: »
    Have the drivers heard about the Autoaddress App that has no 15 per day limit?

    I'm not sure I follow your post really, Nightline, Fastway and DPD have all made public statements that they are upgrading their systems to include eircode

    figured out how to quote

    not one driver i know has heard of it, sounds helpful
    the courier companies may have made statements along those lines, nightline may be sticking some software on their tablets in the future but dpd and fastway certainly are doing nothing about it
    the whole thing sounds like its probably more useful to freight companies anyway.


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    #1217
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    scas100 wrote: »
    figured out how to quote

    not one driver i know has heard of it, sounds helpful
    the courier companies may have made statements along those lines, nightline may be sticking some software on their tablets in the future but dpd and fastway certainly are doing nothing about it
    the whole thing sounds like its probably more useful to freight companies anyway.

    The app is new so awareness would be limited

    The same company who made the app have publicly stated they are working with Fastway to implement eircode?

    Maeve Dwyer of DPD made a statement to the Irish Times that they were working out a plan to implement eircode?


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    #1218
    scas100
    Registered Users Posts: 28 ✭scas100


    ukoda wrote: »
    The app is new so awareness would be limited

    The same company who made the app have publicly stated they are working with Fastway to implement eircode?

    Maeve Dwyer of DPD made a statement to the Irish Times that they were working out a plan to implement eircode?

    sorry,, all i do is work for those companies and sometimes beta test their software, my deepest apologies, im wrong but more importantly ,you're right.


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    #1219
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    scas100 wrote: »
    sorry,, all i do is work for those companies and sometimes beta test their software, my deepest apologies, im wrong but more importantly ,you're right.

    Your information contradicts other publicly available information and statements from these companies, if you claim they are not doing anything about it, then someone isn't telling the truth as both claims can't be true.


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    #1220
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,149 ✭✭✭plodder


    scas100 wrote: »
    sorry,, all i do is work for those companies and sometimes beta test their software, my deepest apologies, im wrong but more importantly ,you're right.
    The app is definitely usable by couriers right now. However, there is a big question mark whether it will remain free to use. The T&Cs state that they can change without notice at any time. So, they could start charging for it in future.


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    #1221
    sondagefaux
    Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭sondagefaux


    plodder wrote: »
    scas100 wrote: »
    sorry,, all i do is work for those companies and sometimes beta test their software, my deepest apologies, im wrong but more importantly ,you're right.
    The app is definitely usable by couriers right now. However, there is a big question mark whether it will remain free to use. The T&Cs state that they can change without notice at any time. So, they could start charging for it in future.

    I don't really see the point in this type of argument. Once upon a time water usage wasn't metered in England or paid for out of user charges. Almost any service could become chargeable in the future whether it's now state owned or not.


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    #1222
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,149 ✭✭✭plodder


    sondagefaux wrote: »
    I don't really see the point in this type of argument. Once upon a time water usage wasn't metered in England or paid for out of user charges. Almost any service could become chargeable in the future whether it's now state owned or not.
    If they intend to keep the app free then they could say that..


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    #1223
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    plodder wrote: »
    If they intend to keep the app free then they could say that..

    This is the part I don't get, it's free and they have said they intend to keep it free and they also want to promote delivery drivers using it, surely they must be losing money on it as they have to pay for those look ups. Unless they have some way around it or exemption or something, I can't see how they can keep it free if it reaches any sort of scale


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    #1224
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,149 ✭✭✭plodder


    ukoda wrote: »
    This is the part I don't get, it's free and they have said they intend to keep it free and they also want to promote delivery drivers using it
    Where have they said that?

    TBH I can't even see how the app is compatible with the published Eircode license. The usage is not really like 'an end user' or a 'provider' as defined in that document. So, there must be some other agreement going on.


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    #1225
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,149 ✭✭✭plodder


    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/96-of-logistics-and-shipping-firms-do-not-use-eircode-402180.html

    Ouch!
    While the survey had only 50 respondents, they are 50 of the biggest businesses in the supply chain sector.

    Neil McDonnell, general manager of the FTAI, said:

    “The structure of Eircode as a random, database tool means that, despite the proliferation of systems and software in the market, even large operators and their customers have no use for it. “Its use is confined to government services and database users such as banks and insurance companies, which to be fair, can exploit its power as a database.”

    Mr McDonnell added that recent moves by one of the Eircode consortium to offer a newly-labelled small area code system to operators was indicative of how the industry has responded.

    “The rollout of small area codes by one of the Department of Communication’s largest contractors, Autoaddress, confirms Eircode’s failings as a postcode for business,” he said.

    “It is doubly frustrating that this company was to the fore in rubbishing structured postcodes, yet is now asking for our help in marketing one to industry. It is an explicit admission of failure by one of the State’s principal contractors. [Communications Minister Denis] Naughten was sympathetic to our views on Eircode in opposition, it will be interesting to see his views as minister. Eircode is going nowhere,” Mr McDonnell said.


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    #1226
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    plodder wrote: »
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/96-of-logistics-and-shipping-firms-do-not-use-eircode-402180.html

    Ouch!

    It kinda beggers belief that a body representing couriers can say they have no use for a code that pinpoints every address in the country. A code that every household was given and can provide when requested (as seen by nearly 90% of SUSI applicants)


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    #1227
    sondagefaux
    Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭sondagefaux


    I think they're having a little bit of a tantrum because everything wasn't handed to them on a plate.


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    #1228
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,149 ✭✭✭plodder


    ukoda wrote: »
    I'm all for it! What in opposed to is them trying to make out its some sort of replacement for eircode, when in fact it was there all along and they just didn't know they could use it in the way Autoaddress have shown them
    To come back to this. If you're in favour of this enhancement then why were you arguing against it being free of charge? Why would it matter to you if it is free, and it keeps the transport sector (and others) happy?

    I think it beggars belief that people think the present situation where Eircodes are not deployed on google maps, not on any satnav, and not by 95% of the transport sector, is somehow acceptable.


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    #1229
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,430 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Mod: Can we keep this to what is being implemented rather than why it is not being implemented?


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    #1230
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    plodder wrote: »
    To come back to this. If you're in favour of this enhancement then why were you arguing against it being free of charge? Why would it matter to you if it is free, and it keeps the transport sector (and others) happy?

    I think it beggars belief that people think the present situation where Eircodes are not deployed on google maps, not on any satnav, and not by 95% of the transport sector, is somehow acceptable.

    As I explained to you already, I believe those who use should pay, those who don't use shouldn't have to pay. Why should I pay tax to be used to maintain a code that helps the private sector make profits?

    Who says anyone thinks it's acceptable it isn't on sat navs / Google / transport? I'm crying out for it to be on /used by all those. But I'm realistic in knowing these things take time.

    You think I'm here saying the current situation is acceptable? I want it to be everywhere, I want it to be wildly adopted.


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    #1231
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    plodder wrote: »
    So, the state shouldn't build anything that the private sector could make profits out of unless users are paying directly for use. By that token, there would be no parks or children's playgrounds, or non fee-paying schools. Strange. You know of course, the state has invested almost 40 million on it as it is. We're getting the worst of all worlds here.

    And it's 18 weeks now since Alex White said google maps support was imminent. Whatever about google's own priorities, there hasn't been a peep from Eircode that any agreement was reached with them. How long are you prepared to wait?

    You're completely off topic trying to start an arguement, what private company makes money off a park?? Yes the state invested and that's why it should get a return.

    How long am I prepared to wait? What level of control do you think I have over that?

    You're just trolling now.


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