Eircode - its implemetation (merged)

plodder wrote: »

Like I said before, this attitude means accepting whatever rubbish is thrown your way, and making the best of it

No it doesn't. If they chose a loc8 code type national postcode I'd be raging. That type of system is plain wrong for a national postcode.

Let me spell this out for you so that it's clear.

I believe eircode to be a very good national postcode.

I don't think it's perfect. But I'm smart enough to know that no code can be perfect. So when people rubbish the code with nonsense arguements I challenge them.

ukoda wrote: »

Some people look at something and immediately see the potential and oppurtinities

Other people look at the same thing and can only see problems and negatives

I'm glad I'm the first kind of person

Like I said before, this attitude means accepting whatever rubbish is thrown your way, and making the best of it. We should aim higher than that and that means accepting mistakes were made and correcting them.

plodder wrote: »

I admire your can-do attitude. No matter how bad this system is, you'll make the best of it I didn't know the education act allowed people to fundraise. To be honest, I would have thought that was a basic right independent of any statute. Not that that actually guarantees you a source of money anyway ....

Some people look at something and immediately see the potential and oppurtinities

Other people look at the same thing and can only see problems and negatives

I'm glad I'm the first kind of person

ukoda wrote: »

Do they want to do it or not? If they want to do it they can. If they decide they can't be arsed then that's there decision.

Would you like me to present a viable solution to getting the money? Ok... It's likely they are part of a parents association which under the Education Act 1998 provides for them to fund raise for admin costs for their activities. So it's highly likely they already have a fund to draw down the payment on. If they don't, set one up as it has many benefits and much more likely for the gov to engage with them.

I admire your can-do attitude. No matter how bad this system is, you'll make the best of it

I didn't know the education act allowed people to fundraise. To be honest, I would have thought that was a basic right independent of any statute. Not that that actually guarantees you a source of money anyway ....

plodder wrote: »

Yeah 5 cent each. So, each family could send a cheque for 5 cent to pay for it or else one of the organisers pays the 180 pounds sterling. Or else they don't bother with it at all (Hint, that is what would happen)

Do they want to do it or not? If they want to do it they can. If they decide they can't be arsed then that's there decision.

Would you like me to present a viable solution to getting the money? Ok... It's likely they are part of a parents association which under the Education Act 1998 provides for them to fund raise for admin costs for their activities. So it's highly likely they already have a fund to draw down the payment on. If they don't, set one up as it has many benefits and much more likely for the gov to engage with them.

ukoda wrote: »

It's about 5c each. Pretty economic in my opinion.

They'd get the ECAD data for every single address point... geo's SAC's, townland etc etc.

Yeah 5 cent each. So, each family could send a cheque for 5 cent to pay for it or else one of the organisers pays the 180 pounds sterling. Or else they don't bother with it at all (Hint, that is what would happen)

plodder wrote: »

It was 4,500. So, that would cost £180. It would be more economic to just buy a few maps and spend some hours looking up addresses and pin pointing them on the maps. So, eircode wouldn't be much use in this situation imo.

It's about 5c each. Pretty economic in my opinion.

They'd get the ECAD data for every single address point... geo's SAC's, townland etc etc.

ukoda wrote: »

How many parents do you think there would be?

500? Because for £20* between the 500 of them they can get everything (full ECAD database) you say they should have access to above from www.eircodesoftware.ie (no licence required)

*I'm using GBP currency in this example as that company happens to quote their prices in sterling on their website, the Irish ones don't seem to list any prices.

It was 4,500. So, that would cost £180. It would be more economic to just buy a few maps and spend some hours looking up addresses and pin pointing them on the maps. So, eircode wouldn't be much use in this situation imo.

clewbays wrote: »

See https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2016-04-14a.2376

It is strange that there have been no media reports about the use of Eircodes by the Emergency Call Answering Service or the National Ambulance Service?

Not surprising really, complaining about "a disaster" is far more desirable reading these days

clewbays

See https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2016-04-14a.2376

It is strange that there have been no media reports about the use of Eircodes by the Emergency Call Answering Service or the National Ambulance Service?

12Phase

GPS is very cheap. Lives aren't.
It's an absolute disgrace if the HSE hasn't got a simple GPS device or a smartphone in every ambulance.

There are now 26 different eircode providers all with various products.

plodder wrote: »

No question, the eircodes will be very useful for the dept. but why shouldn't they be useful to the parents group as well? Why shouldn't they be able to use this system that is costing us, the taxpayers 38 million? It is most unlikely that an ad-hoc group like this would be able to get an Eircode license.

Two counter examples.

1. With the UK postcode, the parents would just collect all of the postcodes and sort them immediately showing the rough locations of everyone and how many families live in each area. Publicly available maps would show what the local postcodes in a particular area are. This would give them independent information to bring to the DOE and argue their case, rather than just trusting any analysis done by the dept.

2. The suggested improvement of Eircode would achieve the same thing. If the 4.5k eircodes were mapped to small area codes using the free dataset you could then do the same sorting and mapping job as with 1. No special software or hi-tech skills are required - just access to the data.

How many parents do you think there would be?

500? Because for £20* between the 500 of them they can get everything (full ECAD database) you say they should have access to above from www.eircodesoftware.ie (no licence required)

*I'm using GBP currency in this example as that company happens to quote their prices in sterling on their website, the Irish ones don't seem to list any prices.

Ambulance couldn’t find house in rural area due to poor signage

BailMeOut wrote: »

true but a device with eircode could be installed in every ambulance, fire truck and garda car. We have the infrastructure in place and it now just needs to be adopted and used.

The national ambulance service have said that they use eircodes in their call centre to pin point the location in conjunction with the address and if it's deemed difficult to find, a dispatcher will guide the ambulance driver (or their 'co-pilot') over the phone to the location, giving them turn by turn directions (essentially their own personal human sat nav)

I would advocate for an automated dashboard system though, where the dispatcher can send the location to an onboard device in the ambulance that could guide the driver.

BailMeOut

Sam Russell wrote: »

Eircode does not help those without access to the database find a property

true but a device with eircode could be installed in every ambulance, fire truck and garda car. We have the infrastructure in place and it now just needs to be adopted and used.

Sam Russell

This is a separate point. Eircode does not help those without access to the database find a property - whether they have the Eircode or not. Armed with just the non-unique address (and sometimes a unique address) find a property.

Every local road in every townland should be given a name or number, and every house should have a distance based number measured from one end of the road. Result would be end of non-unique addresses.

BailMeOut

TheChizler

clewbays wrote: »

TheChizler wrote: »

Got a letter from social welfare through the door today with our Eircode on it. Didn't recognise the name but it was the first bit of official post I've seen with it. They must have populated it automatically on address information they got years ago from a previous resident, either that or someone is trying to commit welfare fraud with our address!

If your address is not unique then it would have been assigned an Eircode by Autoaddress ahead of the July 2015 launch when they were encoding major public sector databases.

What name did you not recognise?

I think it was the other way around, they only encoded the unique addressed in the databases in order to avoid error.

I didn't recognise the name of the person the letter was addressed to, and our list of previous tenants' forwarding addresses didn't have it either.

12Phase

My only observation is that it took a long, long time for the UK to see ubiquitous use of postcodes. It could easily take 5 to 10 years to see similar level of usage of eircodes in Ireland.

Companies won't adapt systems other than on a need-to-do basis. So, they might consider putting in eircode when they're upgrading logistics systems or databases. They're not going to rush out and do it unless it's something that's a major cost saver or, there's a general upgrade going on.

Consumers will probably pick up use of the codes as they become more useful. It shouldn't take as long as the UK rollout in the old days as things are *much* more computer-centric and people do a lot more interacting with online maps than they ever have.

I wouldn't really write it off as a failure just because it hasn't seen huge adoption at this stage.

I still don't think it's a great system in the sense that they could have made the routing codes a hell of a lot more logical than they did. I don't understand what their thought process was on it. It could have easily had 4-character routing codes that linked to sensible sized areas so that the codes would have been useful without databases, but they didn't so we are where are.

oscarBravo

plodder wrote: »

I'm not saying everyone should be able to use it at no cost. So, I guess that invalidates everything else you are saying ....

If your point wasn't that they should be able to use it at no cost, then your point was that they should be able to use it. They can use it. So, I guess that invalidates everything else you are saying...

oscarBravo wrote: »

Because if everyone was able to use it at no cost, it would cost the taxpayers a lot more. They don't need an Eircode licence. They can sign up with any of the resellers listed on the Eircode website, and pay as they go.

I'm not saying everyone should be able to use it at no cost. So, I guess that invalidates everything else you are saying ....

oscarBravo

plodder wrote: »

Why shouldn't they be able to use this system that is costing us, the taxpayers 38 million?

Because if everyone was able to use it at no cost, it would cost the taxpayers a lot more.

It is most unlikely that an ad-hoc group like this would be able to get an Eircode license.

They don't need an Eircode licence. They can sign up with any of the resellers listed on the Eircode website, and pay as they go.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, look what happened to the East Link bridge. When the licince reverted to DCC, did they remove the toll? No they did not and the congestion at Beckett Bridge shows the knock on of that.

These situations are not even vaguely analogous.

The East Link is a piece of physical infrastructure. At capacity it is a rival good - your use of it limits mine.

Eircode is a piece of non-physical infrastructure. It is not a rival good. Your use of it does not limit mine.

Sam Russell

Well, look what happened to the East Link bridge. When the licence reverted to DCC, did they remove the toll? No they did not and the congestion at Beckett Bridge shows the knock on of that.

When capita's license runs out (2025?) might be the occasion to do this.

Bray Head wrote: »

I have no argument with you on #2. As we all know eircode was set up to minimise exchequer cost. If the current model was not used there would be many headlines with 'Eircode project costs xxxxm scandal'. Costs are obviously central and tangible while benefits are dispersed and harder to quantify. And newspapers need easy stories to get the public upset about.

True about the last sentence, but consider this. The single pricing model for Eircode has meant prices being set that are possibly too low for the people who jumped at adopting it, and clearly too high for those who aren't happy. We now apparently are trying to tinker with it, to fix that for specific applications like navigation.

Are we going to have to go through this ordeal every time someone dreams up a new use for postcodes? What about voluntary, ad-hoc groups like this one? How will that kind of usage ever be accommodated?

I could be wrong, but I think all or most of the licensees that have jumped on Eircode so far, are interested in address validation primarily. Nobody is saying that that usage should be free.

We have a lamentable record of commercialising public data here. My personal view is it should just be given away for free and the economic multplier will kick in, but even in the case (as here) where costs have to be covered directly, it is still clearly possible to do that, and maybe even do better.

I have no argument with you on #2. As we all know eircode was set up to minimise exchequer cost. If the current model was not used there would be many headlines with 'Eircode project costs xxxxm scandal'. Costs are obviously central and tangible while benefits are dispersed and harder to quantify. And newspapers need easy stories to get the public upset about.

Bray Head wrote: »

I got an email from a group who want to set up an Educate Together Secondary School in Dublin city.

They were about the submit 4.5k expressions of interest from parents. I had signed up with them 2 years ago but now they are saying that DES are insisting that all addresses are accompanied by an eircode.

This is a very good thing. With the right tools it will really aid location of a site that is in best proximity to where the students live.

No question, the eircodes will be very useful for the dept. but why shouldn't they be useful to the parents group as well? Why shouldn't they be able to use this system that is costing us, the taxpayers 38 million? It is most unlikely that an ad-hoc group like this would be able to get an Eircode license.

Two counter examples.

1. With the UK postcode, the parents would just collect all of the postcodes and sort them immediately showing the rough locations of everyone and how many families live in each area. Publicly available maps would show what the local postcodes in a particular area are. This would give them independent information to bring to the DOE and argue their case, rather than just trusting any analysis done by the dept.

2. The suggested improvement of Eircode would achieve the same thing. If the 4.5k eircodes were mapped to small area codes using the free dataset you could then do the same sorting and mapping job as with 1. No special software or hi-tech skills are required - just access to the data.