should Heroin users be locked up?

Andy From Sligo · 26-05-2016 04:05PM

melissak wrote: »

It costs about 70000 e per year to keep someone in prison. Prisons should be solely for people too dangerous to be free.

OK , and I am saying that some peoples addiction is so strong that they can be a danger to the public , plus whilst they are using they can be a danger to the public in many ways (one being so out of their mind they dont know what they are doing and having hallucinations) - some people might say that some of them are too dangerous to be free ...

Your Face · 26-05-2016 04:12PM

They need a stern talking to, followed by a disapproving facial expression.

Andy From Sligo · 26-05-2016 04:12PM

ok the only place I could come up with, with 24/7 supervision was prison. - OK so i suppose there is another option , but again most probably packed to the brim , but still 24/7 supervision and medical help and shelter : Sectioning then in a mental institution , if that sounds nicer and not like punishment to people. But just remember its still (as far as I know) illegal to do drugs and be under the influence of and in possession of illegal narcotics so by rights it should be punishable

s4uv3 · 26-05-2016 04:15PM

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

ok the only place I could come up with, with 24/7 supervision was prison. - OK so i suppose there is another option , but again most probably packed to the brim , but still 24/7 supervision and medical help and shelter : Sectioning then in a mental institution , if that sounds nicer and not like punishment to people. But just remember its still (as far as I know) illegal to do drugs and be under the influence of and in possession of illegal narcotics so by rights it should be punishable

Would ya go away outa that, our mental health services are far too inefficient already without lumping drug addiction services on top!

Andy From Sligo · 26-05-2016 04:20PM

s4uv3 wrote: »

Would ya go away outa that, our mental health services are far too inefficient already without lumping drug addiction services on top!

I know that, but people are saying that prison is punishment for drug addicts that are in possession of and taking illegal drugs and that a lot of the people shooting up have mental problems and issues.

When are we going to move away from - this and that 'there is no room' at all these problems and more helpfully look at the problem head on why there is no room or resources and tackle it instead of saying 'this and that place cant cope as it is already'

talking_walnut · 26-05-2016 04:27PM

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

s4uv3 wrote: »

Would ya go away outa that, our mental health services are far too inefficient already without lumping drug addiction services on top!

I know that, but people are saying that prison is punishment for drug addicts that are in possession of and taking illegal drugs and that a lot of the people shooting up have mental problems and issues.

When are we going to move away from - this and that 'there is no room' at all these problems and more helpfully look at the problem head on why there is no room or resources and tackle it instead of saying 'this and that place cant cope as it is already'

I am not suggesting we just continue as normal. Just disagreeing that locking them all up is some kind of solution.

El_Duderino 09 · 26-05-2016 04:45PM

Andy From Sligo wrote:

ok the only place I could come up with, with 24/7 supervision was prison. - OK so i suppose there is another option , but again most probably packed to the brim , but still 24/7 supervision and medical help and shelter : Sectioning then in a mental institution , if that sounds nicer and not like punishment to people. But just remember its still (as far as I know) illegal to do drugs and be under the influence of and in possession of illegal narcotics so by rights it should be punishable

It is illegal. Treating them ad a criminal matter will have certain effects. Absent from those effects are, rehabilitation, breaking the addiction, discouraging people from taking up the habit. You will reduce potential harm and cost to civilians while the addict is in prison.

Why don't you spell out the outcomes you want and see what's the best way to achieve those outcomes?

BalcombeSt4 · 26-05-2016 05:20PM

I remember watching a documentary a while back about this place in Canada were addicts go on into, bring their own heroin, but everything else like clean needles was supplied for them and they could stay in this center while they were high and they had expert staff who would advise them on stuff like finding a vien to inject into, how much to use etc... I forget which it was in, it might have been Toronto and before this place opened up the streets filled with addicts of their heads and needles all over the place now thanks to this center the streets are virtually clean of addicts hanging around and not a needle in sight.

I think this would be the best type of model to follow.

BalcombeSt4 · 26-05-2016 05:24PM

Here's the documentary I was talking about. It's in Vancouver.

I can't find part 1.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-W5OvcmeFa8

I mean the suggestion by the OP that addicts should be locked up is just draconian and about 70 years behind the most modern solutions to addiction problems.

EICVD · 26-05-2016 05:58PM

Yes, in a cage, inhumanly overcrowded & dumped in the Atlantic Ocean

Andy From Sligo · 26-05-2016 06:24PM

BalcombeSt4 wrote:

I mean the suggestion by the OP that addicts should be locked up is just draconian and about 70 years behind the most modern solutions to addiction problems.

Its still at the end of the day illegal to do drugs and to be in possession of. And what do we do in this country (or supposed to do) when people are caught doing serious illegal things? That's right we dish out or should, a fine or a custodial prison sentence. Prisons are there for a reason, laws are there for a reason, being out of your mind on drugs and having no intention of getting off them is a selfish outlook on life and if you have no intention to kick the habit.. Or can't then maybe you should be forced to in a way for your own welfare and other's

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 26-05-2016 06:37PM

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Its still at the end of the day illegal to do drugs and to be in possession of. And what do we do in this country (or supposed to do) when people are caught doing serious illegal things? That's right we dish out or should, a fine or a custodial prison sentence. Prisons are there for a reason, laws are there for a reason, being out of your mind on drugs and having no intention of getting off them is a selfish outlook on life and if you have no intention to kick the habit.. Or can't then maybe you should be forced to in a way for your own welfare and other's

Selfishness not a crime.

Drug use is a personal thing in my mind and should not be criminalised. What you do while under the influence, though may well be a crime, and, if so, should be delt with accordingly.

You still don't appear to have grasped the differences between drug use, drug abuse, and addiction. Which is disappointing.

Andy From Sligo · 26-05-2016 06:41PM

I wonder if people's minds would change if their house was ransacked and electrical equipment and jewellery and everything nicked just so the addict could have enough money for his next fix (could be high at the time also) or if they held up a member of your family with a dirty needle and mugged them for money - how would you feel about them being locked up then? - not saying that all drug addicts do this but an awful lot do because how else do they get the money to feed their habit? , and even ones that are ashamed of doing something like that cannot stop because the power of addiction has more of a hold on them than whether they are gonna hurt someone or not...

curiousoranje · 26-05-2016 06:48PM

If you locked up every single person for possession there'd be no guards left on the streets, and prisons would be even more stretched then they currently are. Addiction is a medical problem, and treating it as a crime helps nobody (the chief super of Store Street Garda Station admitted as much the other night on a documentary on RTE.)

You could spend the money that is thrown away on prison, Garda and court costs on better treatment and actual detox facilities alongside safe injecting sites. Targeted early intervention/diversion programmes for at risk youths would also be a very wise idea. Commitment to that would be infinitely better than what we've been doing for the last 30 or so years that has left us in this mess in the first place.

Calling addicts selfish for being addicted is pointless, as is your farcical suggestion of interring them until they quit. You are either very naive, or very ignorant if you believe either would actually help.

looking_around · 26-05-2016 07:02PM

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

I wonder if people's minds would change if their house was ransacked and electrical equipment and jewellery and everything nicked just so the addict could have enough money for his next fix (could be high at the time also) or if they held up a member of your family with a dirty needle and mugged them for money - how would you feel about them being locked up then? - not saying that all drug addicts do this but an awful lot do because how else do they get the money to feed their habit? , and even ones that are ashamed of doing something like that cannot stop because the power of addiction has more of a hold on them than whether they are gonna hurt someone or not...

A surprising number of them, sell drugs.
Some are prostitutes.

If it were legal, it would be cheaper and less likely they would need to steal.

It's cheaper and better for society to give the addicts free heroin and a place to shoot up, does away with alot of the crime you mention. .and cheaper and more effective than jail.

So yeah, i would feel the same. Legalise (in some form) for the betterment of everyone.

melissak · 26-05-2016 07:03PM

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

I wonder if people's minds would change if their house was ransacked and electrical equipment and jewellery and everything nicked just so the addict could have enough money for his next fix (could be high at the time also) or if they held up a member of your family with a dirty needle and mugged them for money - how would you feel about them being locked up then? - not saying that all drug addicts do this but an awful lot do because how else do they get the money to feed their habit? , and even ones that are ashamed of doing something like that cannot stop because the power of addiction has more of a hold on them than whether they are gonna hurt someone or not...

Burglary, mugging etc are harm caising acts for which people should be, and are locked up for. Merely being "on drugs" is not imo.

melissak · 26-05-2016 07:05PM

looking_around wrote: »

A surprising number of them, sell drugs.
Some are prostitutes.

If it were legal, it would be cheaper and less likely they would need to steal.

It's cheaper and better for society to give the addicts free heroin and a place to shoot up, does away with alot of the crime you mention. .and cheaper and more effective than jail.

So yeah, i would feel the same. Legalise (in some form) for the betterment of everyone.

I would be in favour of such places if they were for all chronic addicts of all substances and not just heroin.

melissak · 26-05-2016 07:07PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

If we're locking up people that we don't like, can I put in a motion to lock up people that wear brown boots, bootcut jeans and those stupid shirts that have 2 buttons on the collar?

I second your motion. Also really pointy heeled shoes.

looking_around · 26-05-2016 07:10PM

melissak wrote: »

I would be in favour of such places if they were for all chronic addicts of all substances and not just heroin.

Not all substances need it, (Cannabis, khat, kratum).

Some due to quick high tolerance don't create chronic users. (Psychedelics).

But yes, i think safe sites should be set up for all that may need.

Although psychedelics, could actually be legal in retreats of sorts.

Drug use does not mean drug abuse.
Illegal does not mean dangerous. (Unfortunately, safety has never truly been the reason for the drug war).

melissak · 26-05-2016 07:12PM

looking_around wrote: »

Not all substances need it, (Cannabis, khat, kratum).

Some due to quick high tolerance don't create chronic users. (Psychedelics).

But yes, i think safe sites should be set up for all that may need.

Although psychedelics, could actually be legal in retreats of sorts.

Drug use does not mean drug abuse.
Illegal does not mean dangerous. (Unfortunately, safety has never truly been the reason for the drug war).

No, i should qualify that. If someone has no other safe place to be and they bave an addiction that prevents them availing of other public spaces, these centers should be open to them.
My fear is that chronic alcoholics etc who are down and out might say fcuk it i will do heroin for the comfy place to sit all day

Andy From Sligo · 26-05-2016 08:53PM

looking_around wrote: »

A surprising number of them, sell drugs.
Some are prostitutes.

If it were legal, it would be cheaper and less likely they would need to steal.

It's cheaper and better for society to give the addicts free heroin and a place to shoot up, does away with alot of the crime you mention. .and cheaper and more effective than jail.

So yeah, i would feel the same. Legalise (in some form) for the betterment of everyone.

Drugs screws up peoples lives ... you want to reward them 'help' them by giving them what they want for free and a place also where they can use .... instead of trying to get people off drugs? - you want the risk of other people getting into taking drugs because they will be freely available and de-criminalised and not frowned upon?

looking_around · 26-05-2016 09:04PM

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Drugs screws up peoples lives ... you want to reward them 'help' them by giving them what they want for free and a place also where they can use .... instead of trying to get people off drugs? - you want the risk of other people getting into taking drugs because they will be freely available and de-criminalised and not frowned upon?

I want drug users to have the same rights and liberties as people who use alcohol.

I want addicts to be treated as human beings.

You assume drugs cause the addiction, I say the drug use is a symptom of something else, like depression. Taking away the drugs, does not deal with the cause.
Dealing with why people prefer to be high, is the best way to help them get sober.

Lefalizing, keeps users safe, allows them to live and function in society as they would not be seen as "lesser".
Keeps society safer all in all.

It would guarantee they get help and not punishment.

People have the right to drink themselves stupid,..is that not hypocritical?
And what gives us the right to stop someone using? (Just using. ..not littering, not harming others.....what right do we have to say that an adult can't use? )

Andy From Sligo · 26-05-2016 09:05PM

melissak wrote: »

Burglary, mugging etc are harm caising acts for which people should be, and are locked up for. Merely being "on drugs" is not imo.

OK the law says (im pretty sure) that dealing in drugs, and taking illegal substances is a criminal offence .... and criminals do (or should be locked up) - all this pampering to them and giving them what they want is not helping them one bit, and its not helping them to break the habit, its not helping them to see what damage they are causing to their bodies and mental health

looking_around · 26-05-2016 09:08PM

I wanted to edit but i keep getting an error, that my post needs at least 1 character.

Edit to add: One can argue it's not the drug use that automatically screws people, it's the law that suddenly makes them criminals for what they choose to do in their own time, to themselves.

looking_around · 26-05-2016 09:08PM

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

OK the law says (im pretty sure) that dealing in drugs, and taking illegal substances is a criminal offence .... and criminals do (or should be locked up) - all this pampering to them and giving them what they want is not helping them one bit, and its not helping them to break the habit, its not helping them to see what damage they are causing to their bodies and mental health

The law can be changed. ......
And you're wrong btw, statistics prove that helping rather than punishing, LOWERS drug use. Whether you want to accept that or not is your problem.
Evidence is against you.

briany · 26-05-2016 09:13PM

looking_around wrote: »

I want drug users to have the same rights and liberties as people who use alcohol.

I want addicts to be treated as human beings.

You assume drugs cause the addiction, I say the drug use is a symptom of something else, like depression. Taking away the drugs, does not deal with the cause.
Dealing with why people prefer to be high, is the best way to help them get sober.

Lefalizing, keeps users safe, allows them to live and function in society as they would not be seen as "lesser".
Keeps society safer all in all.

It would guarantee they get help and not punishment.

People have the right to drink themselves stupid,..is that not hypocritical?
And what gives us the right to stop someone using? (Just using. ..not littering, not harming others.....what right do we have to say that an adult can't use? )

This is what this guy is basically getting at in this TED talk, saying that a lack of fulfillment is the root cause of addiction, and the social norm of shunning addicts because we see them as sick only deepens their problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY9DcIMGxMs

Really interesting is the Rat Park experiment where they took caged rats and gave them access to a waterer with morphine added and a normal waterer with none. The rats in cages showed an overwhelming preference for the morphine water. Another group of rats were given access to a 'rat park' where they had lots of opportunity to exercise and interact with other rats. They were given access to the two same bottles, but showed a statistically significant lower preference for the morphine water, preferring the plain.

looking_around · 26-05-2016 09:28PM

briany wrote: »

This is what this guy is basically getting at in this TED talk, saying that a lack of fulfillment is the root cause of addiction, and the social norm of shunning addicts because we see them as sick only deepens their problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY9DcIMGxMs

Really interesting is the Rat Park experiment where they took caged rats and gave them access to a waterer with morphine added and a normal waterer with none. The rats in cages showed an overwhelming preference for the morphine water. Another group of rats were given access to a 'rat park' where they had lots of opportunity to exercise and interact with other rats. They were given access to the two same bottles, but showed a statistically significant lower preference for the morphine water, preferring the plain.

It was cocaine not morphine wasnt it?

There was another Rat park study with oreos and cocaine, the rats preferred the oreos

(well equally to the coke)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2013/10/18/rats-find-oreos-as-addictive-as-cocaine-an-unusual-college-research-project/

Sofiztikated · 27-05-2016 12:45AM

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

OK the law says (im pretty sure) that dealing in drugs, and taking illegal substances is a criminal offence .... and criminals do (or should be locked up) - all this pampering to them and giving them what they want is not helping them one bit, and its not helping them to break the habit, its not helping them to see what damage they are causing to their bodies and mental health

I really don't know how people haven't been banned replying to you.

Ok, you have 2 options.

1) Lock someone away, keep them out of sight, be damned to their welfare, and when you have to let them out, the likelihood they will reoffend is huge,

or

2) Treat the person like a, well, person, treat the cause, and hopefully turn that person into a productive, valued member of society.

You seem to swaying to option 1, but at least have a think about option 2.

Andy From Sligo · 27-05-2016 01:15AM

ok excuse the naivety on my behalf but i dont really know what prisons are like inside but here is my take on it:

Drug addicts on the outside - looked on as parasites by many and waste of space.
Drug addicts in prison: mix with other people and have a regime and some kind of order.

Drug addicts on the outside: most homeless
Drug addicts in prison: shelter, food, heat, gym etc

Drug addicts on the outside: long waiting list for medical treatment
Drug addicts in prison: seen quickly for medical help and programs they can go on to help them kick the habit.

Drug addicts on the outside: Danger of getting beat up or worse
Drug addict in prison: I presume the prison officers would break things up?

Drug addict on outside: most probably all day with nothing to do, excluded from places such as libraries etc- and no-one will employ them, the day most probably feels long and they might take drugs to make the day go quicker and see them through the boredom
Drug Addicts in prison: - I presume they are given some kind of work to do in there and can visit the prison library and play games like snooker etc with other inmates.

maybe if they get on well in prison, clean themselves up, work hard that when they are let out again they dont all of them have to re-offend. They might be given accommodation when they get out and a job or take and pass a course in prison which could give them a qualification for when they get out?

I am sure there are other benefits (even though prison is supposed to be punishment for criminals)

- taking all that into account is it still best to just give them drugs free, and supply clean needles and a place for them to shoot up and then let them on there way back onto the streets ... what sounds best for them?

stefanovich · 27-05-2016 06:06AM

melissak wrote: »

Burglary, mugging etc are harm caising acts for which people should be, and are locked up for. Merely being "on drugs" is not imo.

First hand experience with a heroin addict. Through desperation and fear he eventually committed crime. It wasn't to feed is habit it was because dealers he owed money to threatened his family home and his life.

He moved out of the country and is now working hard and off drugs, he needed to be removed from the environment. I would imagine if he went to prison he would be dead now.

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

ok excuse the naivety on my behalf but i dont really know what prisons are like inside but here is my take on it:

Drug addicts on the outside - looked on as parasites by many and waste of space.
Drug addicts in prison: mix with other people and have a regime and some kind of order.

Drug addicts on the outside: most homeless
Drug addicts in prison: shelter, food, heat, gym etc

Drug addicts on the outside: long waiting list for medical treatment
Drug addicts in prison: seen quickly for medical help and programs they can go on to help them kick the habit.

Drug addicts on the outside: Danger of getting beat up or worse
Drug addict in prison: I presume the prison officers would break things up?

Drug addict on outside: most probably all day with nothing to do, excluded from places such as libraries etc- and no-one will employ them, the day most probably feels long and they might take drugs to make the day go quicker and see them through the boredom
Drug Addicts in prison: - I presume they are given some kind of work to do in there and can visit the prison library and play games like snooker etc with other inmates.

maybe if they get on well in prison, clean themselves up, work hard that when they are let out again they dont all of them have to re-offend. They might be given accommodation when they get out and a job or take and pass a course in prison which could give them a qualification for when they get out?

I am sure there are other benefits (even though prison is supposed to be punishment for criminals)

- taking all that into account is it still best to just give them drugs free, and supply clean needles and a place for them to shoot up and then let them on there way back onto the streets ... what sounds best for them?

I wish it were like that but it's absolutely not from what I hear. Drugs are everywhere, danger is everywhere. Absolute worst environment to put an addict. Most come out worse than they went in.

should Heroin users be locked up?

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