should Heroin users be locked up?

buried

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Why? If they're not strapped for cash, don't have to go through withdrawals etc, can still buy cans with their dole knowing the drugs are for free, where's the incentive to get off it?
Where's the incentive to pay for their own medical treatment? Their own house? Their own way of life? Give up their free travel?
They'd be mad! A state that wants to fund their addiction as well as everything else, sure why would they want to get better?

I know your a decent person Lex, come on man think about it. We are well able to fund politicians and their own little addictions of power who never want to get better. Better off we channel some of that outrageous amount of money into our own actaul people on the street suffering from a worse addiction who probably do want to get better. Making addiction a crime hasn't worked for over 40 years and it won't work for the next 40 either.

corner of hells

pickarooney wrote: »

Well, if you were being cynical it's obvious the problem clears itself up quicker in Dublin.

Average age of an addict in Ireland is early thirties. . Not 19

buried

corner of hells wrote: »

Again I get what you're saying.. but providing a drug that's essentially an escape and trying to ease mental health issues at the same would be very difficult.

We are actually moving forward in Ireland albeit slowly .. with a drugs court , stronger harm reduction , naloxone provision , outreach. . But we still fail.miserably in some things.

We'll get nowhere but be in the grim state of now if it stays criminalized C

corner of hells

buried wrote: »

We'll get nowhere but be in the grim state of now if it stays criminalized C

I understand you. This might sound odd but we don't actually have a huge amount of addicts , I think maybe 24 thousand. That's including everyone say injecting chronic addicts to individuals good and stable on methadone.

buried

corner of hells wrote: »

I understand you. This might sound odd but we don't actually have a huge amount of addicts , I think maybe 24 thousand. That's including everyone say injecting chronic addicts to individuals good and stable on methadone.

Do you not think if the criminal element and market is wiped out those numbers would be reduced?

corner of hells

buried wrote: »

Do you not think if the criminal element and market is wiped out those numbers would be reduced?

I don't.. because of significant polydrug use. A dealer will change , sell something else.. tablets , snow blow , street methadone.

corner of hells

buried wrote: »

Do you not think if the criminal element and market is wiped out those numbers would be reduced?

I like the way you think.. you're not demonising addicts.

oppenheimer1

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Why? If they're not strapped for cash, don't have to go through withdrawals etc, can still buy cans with their dole knowing the drugs are for free, where's the incentive to get off it?
Where's the incentive to pay for their own medical treatment? Their own house? Their own way of life? Give up their free travel?
They'd be mad! A state that wants to fund their addiction as well as everything else, sure why would they want to get better?

I think the idea would be that the state wouldn't care if the addicts recovered or not - The state would just essentially be paying for a problem to go away, mainly addicts anti social behaviour in the cities, petty theft and a large amount of house burglary, not to mention putting the drug lords out of business.

buried

corner of hells wrote: »

I don't.. because of significant polydrug use. A dealer will change , sell something else.. tablets , snow blow , street methadone.

Fair enough, we'll just have to agree to disagree then! Would be very interested to see a trial run of what I've been talking about come into reality, even for two years at most.

looking_around

corner of hells wrote: »

I don't.. because of significant polydrug use. A dealer will change , sell something else.. tablets , snow blow , street methadone.

decriminalise all drugs...

corner of hells

looking_around wrote: »

decriminalise all drugs...

I dunno.. you'd want to see what snow blow does first and some of the other legal high crap.

corner of hells

buried wrote: »

Fair enough, we'll just have to agree to disagree then! Would be very interested to see a trial run of what I've been talking about come into reality, even for two years at most.

I would be open to bring prooved wrong though.

looking_around

corner of hells wrote: »

I dunno.. you'd want to see what snow blow does first and some of the other legal high crap.

Well, example ...people are less likely to use spice, if weed was legal.

People used the dangerous legal highs, because they were..get this.. legal, while safer drugs were illegal, and therefore criminal.

legalise safe drugs would solve alot of problems.

corner of hells

looking_around wrote: »

Well, example ...people are less likely to use spice, if weed was legal.

People used the dangerous legal highs, because they were..get this.. legal, while safer drugs were illegal, and therefore criminal.

legalise safe drugs would solve alot of problems.

Yep , I wouldn't have a particular issue with weed. The context I meant was absolute devastation snowblow causes ,

looking_around

corner of hells wrote: »

Yep , I wouldn't have a particular issue with weed. The context I meant was absolute devastation snowblow causes ,

Weed isn't the only safe but illegal drug.

But, At the very least, decriminalise all for personal use. This frees up resources to deal with supply and stops punishing users.

corner of hells

looking_around wrote: »

Weed isn't the only safe but illegal drug.

But, At the very least, decriminalise all for personal use. This frees up resources to deal with supply and stops punishing users.

I know that , I learned a little over the years.

Yeah I see your point.. I was off on a tangent for a moment.

Andy From Sligo

looking_around wrote: »

decriminalise all drugs...

if you do that would it not just attract more users that want to experiment with new drugs?

If you get chemists to supply these type of drugs would there not be a rush to people going to the doc's to get these type of hard drugs on prescription?

By making / keeping some of these drugs illegal isnt it good in a way because its making people think twice about using them (not everybody feels comfortable at breaking the law) ?

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

buried wrote: »

I know your a decent person Lex, come on man think about it. We are well able to fund politicians and their own little addictions of power who never want to get better. Better off we channel some of that outrageous amount of money into our own actaul people on the street suffering from a worse addiction who probably do want to get better. Making addiction a crime hasn't worked for over 40 years and it won't work for the next 40 either.

I'd rather money be spent on terminally ill children, making sure any elderly person that's sick is recieving appropriate care and not left for years waiting on a hip or knee operation.
I'd rather people below the poverty line be fed three square meals a day and no child goes to school on an empty stomach.
I'd rather they pump money into making childcare facilities more available to parents to encourage people to work and help themselves.
Providing free heroin to people isn't going to help. I'd be disgusted at that. I couldn't fund a weekend on it myself, never mind funding it for people to contribute putting that **** in their bodies.

It is a problem, but why is it a problem? Nobody wants to grow up to be in a zombie like state. I walked down westmoreland st this evening and it was like a scene from a horror movie, at 6pm. One fella so out of it he was bent over practically on his head. It's someone's family member. They have a parent, a child, a sibling somewhere worried sick. And if I have money, and time, I'll always ask if they want a tea or something to eat. No cash, ever. But they're people at the end of the day. 90% just want the money. Most of them don't want tea or food. "I'm diabetic I need money for insulin", "I'm off drugs, fr mc verry promised me a flat, just trying to get myself a safe hostel with no temptations for tonight", I've heard it all.

Whether it's legal or it's not, they'll always be desperate for their next fix. Deal with the issue rather than just throw money at it and hope it goes away. Why are they taking drugs? Why don't they want to come off it? Why is it the best feeling in the world? Rather than treat them like victims, give them things to look forward to. Encourage them to get better.

It is an illness but it's self inflicted. We need to remember that.

buried

LexieOnRale wrote: »

I'd rather money be spent on terminally ill children, making sure any elderly person that's sick is recieving appropriate care and not left for years waiting on a hip or knee operation.
I'd rather people below the poverty line be fed three square meals a day and no child goes to school on an empty stomach.
I'd rather they pump money into making childcare facilities more available to parents to encourage people to work and help themselves.
Providing free heroin to people isn't going to help. I'd be disgusted at that. I couldn't fund a weekend on it myself, never mind funding it for people to contribute putting that **** in their bodies.

It is a problem, but why is it a problem? Nobody wants to grow up to be in a zombie like state. I walked down westmoreland st this evening and it was like a scene from a horror movie, at 6pm. One fella so out of it he was bent over practically on his head. It's someone's family member. They have a parent, a child, a sibling somewhere worried sick. And if I have money, and time, I'll always ask if they want a tea or something to eat. No cash, ever. But they're people at the end of the day. 90% just want the money. Most of them don't want tea or food. "I'm diabetic I need money for insulin", "I'm off drugs, fr mc verry promised me a flat, just trying to get myself a safe hostel with no temptations for tonight", I've heard it all.

Whether it's legal or it's not, they'll always be desperate for their next fix. Deal with the issue rather than just throw money at it and hope it goes away. Why are they taking drugs? Why don't they want to come off it? Why is it the best feeling in the world? Rather than treat them like victims, give them things to look forward to. Encourage them to get better.

It is an illness but it's self inflicted. We need to remember that.

The only way we can do that is to involve them in a programme that doesn't criminalize these people. The best way to do that is a state sponsored health programme to make these people feel involved with mainstream society.

Your totally right Lexie, I'd rather a lot more state money was spent on all those other health and society issues for Irish people too, but heroin and hard drug addiction is another part of that health and society issue. Look at what the current drug fuelled criminal violence that is currently going on in Dublin right now, the money and cost for the state to try to rectify it in the failed way its been trying to rectify it for decades, it won't cut it anymore, it doesn't work. I don't wan't to live in a zombie like state either but the failed methods of the last 40 years have us in this awful situation anyways.

looking_around

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

if you do that would it not just attract more users that want to experiment with new drugs?

If you get chemists to supply these type of drugs would there not be a rush to people going to the doc's to get these type of hard drugs on prescription?

By making / keeping some of these drugs illegal isnt it good in a way because its making people think twice about using them (not everybody feels comfortable at breaking the law) ?

Didn't seem to in Portugal.

If Heroin is legal tomorrow, are you going to rush out and shoot up?

Do you know you can take an entire packet of neurofen plus for an opioid high. It's otc. You can get a packet of 12 tablets with little resistance...planning to go and abuse it?

Did alcohol prohibition lower use rates, in the US?

So no, I don't believe people would suddenly be getting hooked left right and center. Is everybody who drinks, an alcoholic?
Prohibition doesn't stop people using. It just stops people using safely.
It keeps gangs in power, which makes society more dangerous for everyone.
Street drugs are laced with god knows what chemicals. Canadian heroin addicts, are stuck with fentanyl, a much more dangerous and lethal drug than heroin....doesn't stop them using.

When you understand that addiction is a symptom of another problem, not caused by the drugs, but caused by a need to cope and escape, then you will understand why prohibition fails.

Deal with the cause, and you deal with the addiction.

Andy From Sligo

If people think its too awful about punishing hard drug users and send them to prison but are in agreement with something has to be done to get them and their dirty syringes off the street and to pacify people who say that's their body and they should be allowed to do what they like as long as its not hurting others then maybe a compromise could be that you are free to shoot up in your own home off the streets or in a medical centre and be off your head on drugs that's OK, but as soon as you do it on the streets or are under the influence walking around stoned out of your mind in public you will be arrested and get a mandatory jail sentence would that work? It would mean that at least it would shift the problem out of the publics way yet not lock them up if they stick to the rules? I mean obviously in an ideal world you would be making the problems go away as to why they take hard drugs in the first place but no solutions seem to be working and its just getting worse if anything

looking_around

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

If people think its too awful about punishing hard drug users and send them to prison but are in agreement with something has to be done to get them and their dirty syringes off the street and to pacify people who say that's their body and they should be allowed to do what they like as long as its not hurting others then maybe a compromise could be that you are free to shoot up in your own home off the streets or in a medical centre and be off your head on drugs that's OK, but as soon as you do it on the streets or are under the influence walking around stoned out of your mind in public you will be arrested and get a mandatory jail sentence would that work? It would mean that at least it would shift the problem out of the publics way yet not lock them up if they stick to the rules? I mean obviously in an ideal world you would be making the problems go away as to why they take hard drugs in the first place but no solutions seem to be working and its just getting worse if anything

You do realise it's already illegal to use on the streets?

The issue is that there are no safe places to use, for those that don't have homes.

Many more you never see or hear about because they do use in the privacy of their own homes .

The solution hasn't been working. .because only one solution has been tried. Criminalizing and punishing use and an attitude that users are scum just for using.
Time we try something new.

Aodhan O'Riordan, had proposed safe injection sites. I do think that would help. It would protect users and help keep the streets clean. But i don't think it will solve the problem.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

They're not all scum. I'd pity them more than look down on them. Their own worst enemy. Don't think prison is the answer but if they're robbing and terrorising and vandalising, then yes it's appropriate.

Andy From Sligo

looking_around wrote: »

You do realise it's already illegal to use on the streets?

so the problem is the law isnt being enforced then by the authorities, a blind eye, and just being ignored and let get on with it if they are shooting up and are not being dealt with or even arrested?... mind you, no good arresting therm if its end results is just a slap on the wrist/caution or a fine or a promise to go and get medical help and go to meetings

looking_around

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

so the problem is the law isnt being enforced then by the authorities, a blind eye, and just being ignored and let get on with it if they are shooting up and are not being dealt with or even arrested?... mind you, no good arresting therm if its end results is just a slap on the wrist/caution or a fine or a promise to go and get medical help and go to meetings

Arresting doesn't work.

Set up safe injection sites. Would protect users and clean up the streets.

As i said earlier, decriminalize personal use, allows cops to deal with sypply.

Also legalise safe drugs, gives people who want it an alternative to alcohol.
Also cannabis, shrooms and kratom can all help with quitting opioid addiction.

I believe these changes would help and I would love to see a 5 year trial in society. .
Because the drug war has failed.

melissak

LexieOnRale wrote: »

I'd rather money be spent on terminally ill children, making sure any elderly person that's sick is recieving appropriate care and not left for years waiting on a hip or knee operation.
I'd rather people below the poverty line be fed three square meals a day and no child goes to school on an empty stomach.
I'd rather they pump money into making childcare facilities more available to parents to encourage people to work and help themselves.
Providing free heroin to people isn't going to help. I'd be disgusted at that. I couldn't fund a weekend on it myself, never mind funding it for people to contribute putting that **** in their bodies.

It is a problem, but why is it a problem? Nobody wants to grow up to be in a zombie like state. I walked down westmoreland st this evening and it was like a scene from a horror movie, at 6pm. One fella so out of it he was bent over practically on his head. It's someone's family member. They have a parent, a child, a sibling somewhere worried sick. And if I have money, and time, I'll always ask if they want a tea or something to eat. No cash, ever. But they're people at the end of the day. 90% just want the money. Most of them don't want tea or food. "I'm diabetic I need money for insulin", "I'm off drugs, fr mc verry promised me a flat, just trying to get myself a safe hostel with no temptations for tonight", I've heard it all.

Whether it's legal or it's not, they'll always be desperate for their next fix. Deal with the issue rather than just throw money at it and hope it goes away. Why are they taking drugs? Why don't they want to come off it? Why is it the best feeling in the world? Rather than treat them like victims, give them things to look forward to. Encourage them to get better.

It is an illness but it's self inflicted. We need to remember that.

I agree with some of this. Im not sure it is self inflicted but circumstance inflicted. It is a pain killer. Some people have extreme pain mental or physical that they need to block out. Heroin does this for them att first. But then they become heavier users as their tolerance builds up and they need more, don't have money or inclination to feed themsepves.Bad lifestyle makes **** of their bodies and their teeth get sore etc so they are in constant pain wuthout it.
They literally cannot function without it.
There is no quick fix solution to this problem that i can see.

Lyaiera

Can we have the same for booze? Places where people who like to drink go, and the drink is free, and we can drink in a safe space where we won't get battered about, and there'd be people helping us not drink if we want to stop drinking.

looking_around

Lyaiera wrote: »

Can we have the same for booze? Places where people who like to drink go, and the drink is free, and we can drink in a safe space where we won't get battered about, and there'd be people helping us not drink if we want to stop drinking.

The act of drinking is not a criminal offence. You can also drink safely in many bars.
And you can buy the potentially lethal substance from any supermarket.

Really want to do this comparison?

Bicky bicky

Definitely NOT!Drink can be enjoyed by a lot of people in moderation but alot of Irish people drink far too much sure it's grand sure where Irish its part of our culture.drinks costs the Irish economy more that any drug in a&e, Garda time wasted violent Street brawls thrus to Sunday in every town and city on this island DRUGS are a health issue not criminal.

I know lots of my generation who had a violent upbringing because of Drink sure a bottle of knock u out and wreak everything in sight without remembering (spirits)is 17.50.

I know plenty of people who grew up in serious drug abuse houses where no physical harm every came to them and still live a normal life drugs education and moderation is key here.injection centres should be tried nothing else has worked or been tried we as a society have failed this country's most needy

Lyaiera

looking_around wrote: »

The act of drinking is not a criminal offence. You can also drink safely in many bars.
And you can buy the potentially lethal substance from any supermarket.

Really want to do this comparison?

I wasn't comparing it to anything. It wasn't a hard hitting post of social commentary. I'm not campaigning for heroin users to be executed, or for them to be given free teddy bears and big macs. I just want free booze. Is that too much to ask for?