should Heroin users be locked up?

talking_walnut

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Can people who say hard drug taking should be legalised tell me why they think it was criminalized in the first place, and why they thing for years there has been talk about legalizing it but it never seems to happen? I suppose some are going to come up with the old argument about that other addictive substances such as ciggies and beer is taxed by the government and hard drugs aren't and this is why they are illegal, but no there's something more to it than that

I'd say it started as a product of fear. Natural reaction when you see what it does to people. As a side-not, don't forget that these kind of laws have been around since ye olde times (dunno when exactly), when democracy wasn't so much a thing and those chosen by "divine right" did a lot of the ruling through force and oppression. But anyway, I don't personally think the laws are a product of "the man trying to keep us down". Drugs are/can definitely be harmful so it's natural to try and control dangerous things we don't understand.

But we have learnt a lot since those days. Particularly in the area of how people think and operate. We've started to realise that the punishment approach to drug treatment doesn't have a significant impact. If you're at the point where you decide that taking heroin is a viable life-choice, you're unlikely to be thinking about the potential consequences if the cops happen to catch you doing it. Think about it. You're already ignoring all the health and life impacts that are going to happen. Does anyone ever think "if I take this heroin now, my life will be so much better tomorrow/next week/month/year"?

In terms of why it's still illegal, all I can suggest is that governments are slow to respond to this kind of thing and reluctant to look "weak on drugs". There's still a lot of people out there that think like you do/did; that the only solution is to lock junkies up and punish them until they stop. They don't want to be seen as "rewarding" junkies (when in reality they'd be "rewarding" all of us by reducing the cost and impact of drug users on society) as they have to win elections periodically. There's probably also a sizeable number of politicians that also think like this. You don't have to pass an IQ test to get elected. There's no Politician 101 class that teaches them how to make decisions based on reviewing actual data and making informed decisions on what would be most beneficial to all of society. That's my observations on it anyway. Look at how long it took for gay marriage to become legal. If you read the constitution, there's still a lot of wording related to the wifes place being in the home.

I haven't heard the tax argument for anything other that weed as it's so easy to grow at home. I don't think it's too easy to grow your own opium. The conspiracy is that the government wouldn't be able to control the supply of it and so they couldn't efficiently tax it. I don't buy that though. We can equally as easily grow veg at home, but most people buy from supermarkets for convenience. Stoners and conspiracy theories. Who'd have thunk it

ScumLord

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

I don't really know What more to add than to say only that if we go down the specialist shoot up centre routes that other people mention it will not only cost a small fortune in setting up and running that to me in a way it will be like rewarding drug addicts for carrying on what they are doing , it would be like you are breaking the law but not to worry you won't face any consequences instead we will freely let you carry on doing it but in a different place. As usual it will be like moving the problem from one area to another area.

The difference would be that they wouldn't be breaking the law anymore because the use of drugs wouldn't be against the law. So it's essentially a public service. So just as collecting people rubbish bins isn't rewarding people for making rubbish, or allowing people drink in pubs isn't encouraging alcohol abuse. Having a safe place to use drugs is just a service to help reduce the dangers of using those drugs.

We are already spending a small fortune criminalising drugs, and it's been completely ineffective. The side affect of course is that we're generating huge fortunes for criminal enterprise. Changing the law wouldn't remove dangers like addiction but it would refocus our efforts to combat addiction directly rather than through the proxy of prohibition and would of course devastate the illegal trade.

I dare say if these new centres had to be set up there would have to be a feasibility study set up first so that's more money in someone's pocket and a delay in setting it up then for a start!

Definitely needs a feasibility study, it needs to be done right. I'm not suggesting drugs get free rain and we'll see heroin next to Jameson in the off license. We need well thought out public facilities, traceability, strict regulation. But not to the point it's counterproductive, the legal system has to be more accessible and rewarding than the illegal one.

ScumLord

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Can people who say hard drug taking should be legalised tell me why they think it was criminalized in the first place, and why they thing for years there has been talk about legalizing it but it never seems to happen?

Drug laws happened for many political and racist reasons. US authorities associated many drugs with particular minorities. Cocaine with Africans, weed with Mexicans. But those aren't the reason we have prohibition they just helped rush through the laws.

The real reason was professional doctors abusing their positions to turn their patients into addicts. They were using the likes of heroin and cocaine as common treatments for everything from chronic pain to the common cold. As they supplied these drugs at the time they were basically licensed drug pushers.

Drug crime as we know it today simply didn't exist before prohibition. Organised crime as we know it is the direct result of prohibition, not the reason for it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Can people who say hard drug taking should be legalised tell me why they think it was criminalized in the first place, and why they thing for years there has been talk about legalizing it but it never seems to happen? I suppose some are going to come up with the old argument about that other addictive substances such as ciggies and beer is taxed by the government and hard drugs aren't and this is why they are illegal, but no there's something more to it than that

“The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I’m saying? We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did.”
- John Erlichman (Nixon aide in the late 60s)

You only realise just what some of these drugs - like LSD, MDMA or mushrooms - actually do when you take them. They are not danderous (when taken in the right environment) and can be very benefitial and enlightening. But do you really think the powers that be want us being enlightened...?

Andy From Sligo

lets think about this sensibly though, you cannot seriously ever legalise intravenous heroin drug taking on par with alcohol and other legalised substances - fair enough I can see weed being legalised in the near future though

ScumLord

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

lets think about this sensibly though, you cannot seriously ever legalise intravenous heroin drug taking on par with alcohol and other legalised substances - fair enough I can see weed being legalised in the near future though

Well yeah, that's basically what I said in my last post. It should be possible for anyone to try heroin, I don't know what the vehicle would be, or what checks and balances would be needed. A pub, or shop isn't that vehicle.

Andy From Sligo

should it be possible for anyone to try heroin legally though - as long as its ilegal isnt that at least stopping some people from doing it? - not saying that if they made it legal to be in posession and use heroin tomorrow that there would be an influx of people wanting to try it out and give it a go .... but there might be . with me personally and a lot of people ranted they are not gonna go out and try it just for the sake of it and because its just gone legal but it could open up people who are on softer drugs to say "shag it, its legal now so im gonna get me some and try it out"

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

lets think about this sensibly though, you cannot seriously ever legalise intravenous heroin drug taking on par with alcohol and other legalised substances - fair enough I can see weed being legalised in the near future though

You STILL haven't done the research, have you?

ScumLord

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

should it be possible for anyone to try heroin legally though - as long as its ilegal isnt that at least stopping some people from doing it? -

Doesn't seem to be, I'd say the fact that it's illegal means that heroin use is a one way street to a terrible life because once you get into that lifestyle it's hard to find a way back out. Legalised heroin and the public spaces to use it would at least be a different lifestyle. An addict could try and avoid the worst aspects of that culture and just get their fix surrounded by normal people, working people, kind people, who will set a better example and encourage a better lifestyle. It takes then out of dens where there is a bias towards a further decent and into public facilities where there's a bias towards kicking the habit.

EDIT: Yes, anyone that wants to try it can also use the public facilities and do it under medical supervision.

looking_around

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Can people who say hard drug taking should be legalised tell me why they think it was criminalized in the first place, and why they thing for years there has been talk about legalizing it but it never seems to happen? I suppose some are going to come up with the old argument about that other addictive substances such as ciggies and beer is taxed by the government and hard drugs aren't and this is why they are illegal, but no there's something more to it than that

Sure, I'm currently running a drug policy and history theme on my Facebook page.

It was made illegal because of racism and the Chinese..
It was actually traded with and perfectly legal up until the opium wars, which had nothing at all, to do with health. If I got you the links. .will you actually read them.?

talking_walnut

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

should it be possible for anyone to try heroin legally though - as long as its ilegal isnt that at least stopping some people from doing it? - not saying that if they made it legal to be in posession and use heroin tomorrow that there would be an influx of people wanting to try it out and give it a go .... but there might be . with me personally and a lot of people ranted they are not gonna go out and try it just for the sake of it and because its just gone legal but it could open up people who are on softer drugs to say "shag it, its legal now so im gonna get me some and try it out"

I personally don't think I know anybody that would but that's anecdotal so hardly proof. But I can't imagine someone making that leap unless they were already peaking over the edge.

The articles I have seen are more focussed on the issue from the other side though. America has a growing heroin problem at the moment among the middle-class. It's been linked to the an over prescription of opiate based painkillers (OxyConton commonly). Patients get hooked and then have to move to a drug dealer when their doctor cut them off. If the dealer is out of OxyConton but has loads of heroin, the patient is either going home with that or the mother of all withdrawals. If there were treatment/drop-in centres in place, it would be more likely for the person to go there instead of trying to find a dealer. At least then they'd be in a controlled environment where professionals could guide them towards some treatment. At the very least the downward spiral will be somewhat eased by them not having to become felons.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

You STILL haven't done the research, have you?

Leave off Andy. He has an opinion, voiced it and is now responding to the replies in a thoughtful way. He may not have changed his mind (yet ) but he has shown that he's reading the replies and taking them on board. As you yourself pointed out, we've been subject to years of hyperbole about the "drug menace". It seems counter-intuitive to relax laws on something that can cause so much harm.

looking_around

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

should it be possible for anyone to try heroin legally though - as long as its ilegal isnt that at least stopping some people from doing it? - not saying that if they made it legal to be in posession and use heroin tomorrow that there would be an influx of people wanting to try it out and give it a go .... but there might be . with me personally and a lot of people ranted they are not gonna go out and try it just for the sake of it and because its just gone legal but it could open up people who are on softer drugs to say "shag it, its legal now so im gonna get me some and try it out"

It's already possible to legally try opioids. Codiene is over the counter.
After surgery or severe pain. .one is often prescribed morphine.
Diamorphine is a legal painkiller, that's heroin btw.

Do people come out of surgeries addicted? I've never left hospital thinking "mmmh gotta get me some heroin".

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

talking_walnut wrote: »

Leave off Andy. He has an opinion, voiced it and is now responding to the replies in a thoughtful way. He may not have changed his mind (yet ) but he has shown that he's reading the replies and taking them on board. As you yourself pointed out, we've been subject to years of hyperbole about the "drug menace". It seems counter-intuitive to relax laws on something that can cause so much harm.

Oh, I'm not saying he's right or wrong, but the opinion isn't well researched if he things alcohol is much less addictive or dangertous than alcohol, and I've pointed this out numerous times.

Andy From Sligo

looking_around wrote: »

Sure, I'm currently running a drug policy and history theme on my Facebook page.

It was made illegal because of racism and the Chinese..
It was actually traded with and perfectly legal up until the opium wars, which had nothing at all, to do with health. If I got you the links. .will you actually read them.?

im not being funny but I like to dip in and out of these subjects - but as soon as I start reading large amounts of paragraphs of texts on stuff I start getting bored - I think I have a short attention span

Andy From Sligo

talking_walnut wrote: »

.... America has a growing heroin problem at the moment among the middle-class. It's been linked to the an over prescription of opiate based painkillers (OxyConton commonly). Patients get hooked and then have to move to a drug dealer when their doctor cut them off. If the dealer is out of OxyConton but has loads of heroin, the patient is either going home with that or the mother of all withdrawals.....

was watching the american CBS news on this last night:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-treatment-gives-hope-for-those-with-opioid-addiction/

Andy From Sligo

I had morphine tabs and lyrica tablets in 2009 for a bout of really bad sciatica i had - had to be weaned off them gradually , pretty nasty felt the effects (well as much as I could) of what its like to get addicted to something I got quite anxious. But anyway, why do heroin addicts have to go cold turkey? - why can they not be weaned off the heroin ?

looking_around

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

im not being funny but I like to dip in and out of these subjects - but as soon as I start reading large amounts of paragraphs of texts on stuff I start getting bored - I think I have a short attention span

Yeah, I figured.

Well here's a snippet.
" The first (in the US) opium law was an 1875 law in San Francisco was an 1875 ordinance that outlawed opium smoking in opium dens. Among other things, it was alleged that Chinese men were seducing white women in opium dens. The measure was primarily directed at the Chinese, "

http://druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/opiates_outlawed.htm
----

Yeah but you tapered off, because you wanted to. You didn't feel that the only thing getting you buy is that drug. That there was nothing else.

----
They're supposed to be tapered down..through methadone. .because heroin is illegal.
But not only does methodone have a longer withdrawal period. .it's ignoring the actual cause of the addiction.

We keep looking at the side effects of symptoms of the addiction when it comes to illegal drugs. However if it's gambling or alcohol. .we try to deal with the cause.
The drugs make the addiction hard to quit sure. .but they didn't entirely cause it. There's a reason why a person starts using hard drugs like heroin. .and it's not for fun. (Cocaine admittedly is a bit different, because that is a "party" drug..buy I'd still say there's emotional problems ifone starts using it daily).

Deal with why someone wants to use, then. .and only then can you really help them quit..because then, they'll want to quit.

Would you want to quit the only thing that feels like. ..it's keeping you going?

A legal supply (through prescription or a clinic ) though may not seem helpful. .and may not initiate someone quitting. .is socially safer.
They won't be littering needles, because there's somewhere safe to use.
They won't be afraid to get help as they would no longer be criminals.
The gangs will no longer get an income as they won't have buyers.
Addicts that would've committed crimes are less likely. .because they won't be price gouged by the dealers.

It's a win for everyone. .yes, it might seem like saying. .it's acceptable to be an addict. .but it only SEEMS that way.
You can get hooked to alcoho,l, it's perfectly....yet people don't think it's acceptable to be alcoholic.
Just because it's safer and legal for addicts. .doesn't mean addiction will be socially acceptable.

Ronald Wilson Reagan

Facebook user to get jail, selfie takers to be burned at the stake.