should Heroin users be locked up?

melissak

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

I know drugs are rife in prison still - but are prisoners just at risk of getting dodgy gear mixed with god knows what in there as they are on the outside?

Do you think the prison gives them pure heroin? I doubt it, i would assume drugs in prison are smuggled in and therefore the same as outside?

Dr Crayfish

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

If I am honest yes I would. 100%

You should probably be the one locked away or in care or something if you're that ignorant and stupid.

melissak

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

You should probably be the one locked away or in care or something if you're that ignorant and stupid.

In fairness to the poster heroin is a scurge on the inner cities particularly. I do not blame the users but i have sympathy for those who have seen their communities blighted by this scurge. What we need to think about is why life is so **** for some people that heroin seems a good idea and work on that.

Idjit

No, they should not be locked up.

Our family member used and I can tell you through our experiences that prison doesn't help. What Ireland needs to reduce this blight isn't prison. Prison keeps them in contact with others like them and sustains them in their usage until they are completely addicted or dead.

We need more detox centres than what we currently have, to begin with. The ones we have are few and far between and then they have catchment areas. If you want to get off heroin and you don't live in their jurisdiction, tough luck, you're in for a rough 6 months of trying to stay clean on your own so the rehab clinics will be satisfied to take you in. Stays in detox centres need to be followed up IMMEDIATELY by stays in rehab centres. Our relative literally was driven from one and signed into the other without stopping anywhere.

Heroin usage is a health issue. It shouldn't be treated like a crime because handling that way has never worked. The crimes commited BY heroin users should certainly be treated as crimes, but not the usage itself.

Andy From Sligo

if the issue with prisons is that drugs are just as prevalent to get hold of than on the outside - then its prisons and prison security that needs looking at and that is failing.

If its proved to be that inmates are always one step ahead of the prison officers then that needs to be looked at and dealt with, if there are holes in the security where mobile phones and drugs and other contraband is getting in that needs
closing up.

If its corrupt prison staff that are letting in drugs then that would have to be addressed.

now, whether that would cause the prisons to go into meltdown and produce rioting if the inmates didnt get their drugs then that will be another problem to address :eek:

corner of hells

Jade182 wrote: »

No, they should not be locked up.

Our family member used and I can tell you through our experiences that prison doesn't help. What Ireland needs to reduce this blight isn't prison. Prison keeps them in contact with others like them and sustains them in their usage until they are completely addicted or dead.

We need more detox centres than what we currently have, to begin with. The ones we have are few and far between and then they have catchment areas. If you want to get off heroin and you don't live in their jurisdiction, tough luck, you're in for a rough 6 months of trying to stay clean on your own so the rehab clinics will be satisfied to take you in. Stays in detox centres need to be followed up IMMEDIATELY by stays in rehab centres. Our relative literally was driven from one and signed into the other without stopping anywhere.

Heroin usage is a health issue. It shouldn't be treated like a crime because handling that way has never worked. The crimes commited BY heroin users should certainly be treated as crimes, but not the usage itself.

Did your family member detox in the community or in a residential centre ?

Andy From Sligo

looking_around wrote: »

You cant "clear" users off the streets. Most drug users are not addicts.
I repeat most users are not addicts.

.

we all know that things like this and as huge as this is that you are not going to solve it all overnight - could take years before you saw results and you attack the problem in stages not in one clean sweep (well you could have a zero tolerance attitude as well i suppose)

you concentrate on the severity of the situation - of course you dont lock up non-addicts, you could start to attack the crisis though by locking up habitual drug users that keep getting in trouble with the law and have no intention of getting help to come off the gear and who are considered to be a danger to themselves or members of the public

melissak

Jade182 wrote: »

No, they should not be locked up.

Our family member used and I can tell you through our experiences that prison doesn't help. What Ireland needs to reduce this blight isn't prison. Prison keeps them in contact with others like them and sustains them in their usage until they are completely addicted or dead.

We need more detox centres than what we currently have, to begin with. The ones we have are few and far between and then they have catchment areas. If you want to get off heroin and you don't live in their jurisdiction, tough luck, you're in for a rough 6 months of trying to stay clean on your own so the rehab clinics will be satisfied to take you in. Stays in detox centres need to be followed up IMMEDIATELY by stays in rehab centres. Our relative literally was driven from one and signed into the other without stopping anywhere.

Heroin usage is a health issue. It shouldn't be treated like a crime because handling that way has never worked. The crimes commited BY heroin users should certainly be treated as crimes, but not the usage itself.

I don't even know that detox centers would solve the problem, though they are necessary. A lot of people who are inclined to addiction fear the "system" that they feel has marginalised them from birth. There are many drug services already that they don't avail of.
That you havr to be off heroin to get into rehab is absurd.

corner of hells

melissak wrote: »

I don't even know that detox centers would solve the problem, though they are necessary. A lot of people who are inclined to addiction fear the "system" that they feel has marginalised them from birth. There are many drug services already that they don't avail of.
That you havr to be off heroin to get into rehab is absurd.

It's would be quite a gamble to allow an individual try detox off heroin in a treatment centre particularly an IV user.

There is one small centre that would an addict who smoked, but from memory your last use had to be half a bag and you had to be delivered to thier door by a family member .

Burger Please

Just execute them. Problem Solved

Andy From Sligo

Burger Please wrote:

Just execute them. Problem Solved

There's not enough places to execute them .... We would have to build more places to execute them ;-)

Burger Please

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

There's not enough places to execute them .... We would have to build more places to execute them ;-)

Line them up next to an coal fired power generator, execute then feed into the burner, Free electricity!

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Jade182 wrote: »

No, they should not be locked up.

Our family member used and I can tell you through our experiences that prison doesn't help. What Ireland needs to reduce this blight isn't prison. Prison keeps them in contact with others like them and sustains them in their usage until they are completely addicted or dead.

We need more detox centres than what we currently have, to begin with. The ones we have are few and far between and then they have catchment areas. If you want to get off heroin and you don't live in their jurisdiction, tough luck, you're in for a rough 6 months of trying to stay clean on your own so the rehab clinics will be satisfied to take you in. Stays in detox centres need to be followed up IMMEDIATELY by stays in rehab centres. Our relative literally was driven from one and signed into the other without stopping anywhere.

Heroin usage is a health issue. It shouldn't be treated like a crime because handling that way has never worked. The crimes commited BY heroin users should certainly be treated as crimes, but not the usage itself.

What about the innocent people affected by heroin users?
The people who are mugged or have their homes broken into?? Should they tolerate it because it's a health issue? You cannot force someone to come off drugs if they don't want to. People need to take responsibility for their own actions.

unfortunately

LexieOnRale wrote:

What about the innocent people affected by heroin users? The people who are mugged or have their homes broken into?? Should they tolerate it because it's a health issue? You cannot force someone to come off drugs if they don't want to. People need to take responsibility for their own actions.

If people mug or rob, then arrest them for that, not for simply taking heroin. If someone drinks and drives we arrest them for it; we don't decide to criminalise alcohol and arrest everyone drinking whether they are harming anyone else or not. Secondly, the reason some users steal or mug is because their addiction is being exploited by ruthless criminal gangs who control prices. Legalise it and provide it pure in special centres under healthier and safer conditions. That way we eliminate gangs getting money, users robbing out of desperation, no needles on streets and a way to tackle addiction in a clinical setting.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Absolutely no way to legalising heroin.
You take it KNOWING it's illegal. It's a choice you make. You can't decide to use hard drugs and then act surprised it's illegal. Absolutely help people get their lives back on track but this crack of absolving them of any wrongdoing because there's bad men after them for money, bull****.

stefanovich

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Absolutely no way to legalising heroin.
You take it KNOWING it's illegal. It's a choice you make. You can't decide to use hard drugs and then act surprised it's illegal. Absolutely help people get their lives back on track but this crack of absolving them of any wrongdoing because there's bad men after them for money, bull****.

Prescription only. You only get it when you are addicted. Black market routes dry up as once you are addicted you are getting it for free. Problem completely solved.

Andy From Sligo

Precisely, drink driving can land you in prison because when you drunk and drive its possible you could run over someone and kill them or kill someone on a head on smash you can still get arrested and thrown in jail for not killing someone. You know you shouldn't drink and drive but you decided to take matters in your own hands and do it anyway. If your caught you have to face consequences . the gards dont say oh we will arrest you only when you have killed someone . which is why you need law and order across the board. Dont drink and drive because you could kill somebody whilst driving under the influence, dont take illegal drugs because you could kill someone under the influence of not having complete cognitive awareness if what your doing when your high.... Oh and its illegal as well and you know it but you still chose to take it/ use it. Or we should just let drink driving go without custodial sentence as well because after all they hadn't killed anyone yet even though people know they shouldn't drink and drive. When drink drivers are given a prison sentence why are people harking on then that they are mixing with criminals and could take up doing drugs and come out and re,offend?

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

stefanovich wrote: »

Prescription only. You only get it when you are addicted. Black market routes dry up as once you are addicted you are getting it for free. Problem completely solved.

Are you for real? To stop them robbing people, you want the taxpayers to give them free heroin with their medical cards? People dropping like flies, kids having medical cards taken off them, and you want the tax payers to carry the cost of a drug addiction? Are you actually serious

corner of hells

stefanovich wrote: »

Prescription only. You only get it when you are addicted. Black market routes dry up as once you are addicted you are getting it for free. Problem completely solved.

I don't think I've met an addict who would want to get on to a legalised heroin program and I've worked in low threshold drug services , needle exchanges and homeless services.

A much better ideal would be to engage with addicts stuck on methadone/tablets etc.and find a constructive way of detoxing .

I'm not sure providing another addictive substance would benefit anyone.

SEPT 23 1989

I am addicted to nicotine so I have some sympathy with the heroin folk

I'f they could wake up in the morning and buy their fix legally at a reasonable price and clean cut I dont think we would have a quarter of the problems we have today

buried

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Are you for real? To stop them robbing people, you want the taxpayers to give them free heroin with their medical cards? People dropping like flies, kids having medical cards taken off them, and you want the tax payers to carry the cost of a drug addiction? Are you actually serious

Think about it though, If you get these people into a system where their addiction can be treated by a legitimate, mainstream and legal medicated system they will probably have a greater and better chance of getting out and totally rid of their horrible addiction rather than their addiction continuously being fed from the claws of scumbag moneyhungry criminals

corner of hells

buried wrote: »

Think about it though, If you get these people into a system where their addiction can be treated by a legitimate, mainstream and legal medicated system they will probably have a greater and better chance of getting out and totally rid of their horrible addiction rather than their addiction continuously being fed from the claws of scumbag moneyhungry criminals

We don't have any comprehensive plan to get an off methadone , I'm not sure a legal heroin program would help at all.

buried

corner of hells wrote: »

We don't have any comprehensive plan to get an off methadone , I'm not sure a legal heroin program would help at all.

Couldn't do any more harm though could it? Its gotten to such a total grim state as it is now.
It should be given a chance I think.
The "war" against it hasn't done nothing but make it worse. What else is there to do really?

corner of hells

buried wrote: »

Couldn't do any more harm though could it? Its gotten to such a total grim state as it is now.
It should be given a chance I think.

To be honest I'm working with addicts a good few years now and in the last ten or fifteen years we've started to see a gray generation of addicts .. i.e. addicts in thier 50's with grandchildren.. so providing another addictive substance legal or not would of little or no gain.

I get your train of thought .. but between heroin , methadone , tablets and so forth a better plan now for addict would be an opportunity to detox rather than substitute one problem for another.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

buried wrote: »

Think about it though, If you get these people into a system where their addiction can be treated by a legitimate, mainstream and legal medicated system they will probably have a greater and better chance of getting out and totally rid of their horrible addiction rather than their addiction continuously being fed from the claws of scumbag moneyhungry criminals

Why? If they're not strapped for cash, don't have to go through withdrawals etc, can still buy cans with their dole knowing the drugs are for free, where's the incentive to get off it?
Where's the incentive to pay for their own medical treatment? Their own house? Their own way of life? Give up their free travel?
They'd be mad! A state that wants to fund their addiction as well as everything else, sure why would they want to get better?

pickarooney

FTA69 wrote: »

Exactly, Irish prisons are riddled with drugs and its tacitly facilitated by the institution as it's the only thing that keeps a lid on prisons packed to double their capacity. My old man worked in Cork Prison for twenty odd years and that's his story anyway, I've heard similar from others involved with it.

Heroin addiction should be treated as a medical and social issue. In the Netherlands they give free heroin to addicts which has eliminated crime from this group as they don't rob and shoplift. The average age of a heroin addict in Amsterdam is 40 odd and it's 19 in Dublin by the way so it's clear which approach works.

Well, if you were being cynical it's obvious the problem clears itself up quicker in Dublin.

buried

corner of hells wrote: »

To be honest I'm working with addicts a good few years now and in the last ten or fifteen years we've started to see a gray generation of addicts .. i.e. addicts in thier 50's with grandchildren.. so providing another addictive substance legal or not would of little or no gain.

I get your train of thought .. but between heroin , methadone , tablets and so forth a better plan now for addict would be an opportunity to detox rather than substitute one problem for another.

Fair play to you working with these people on the frontline of things, but that's kind of my point, if we had a legitimate state-sponsored programme where addicts could be treated in a legitimate state sponsored health & mental health driven programme, they would have a far better chance of ridding themselves of this addiction. Everyone just thinks of this disease as a chemical medicated problem, but it isn't, to have a safe place where these people can go to also talk to legitimate mental health professionals while they deal with their addiction would be a great step forward in killing this disease

stefanovich

buried wrote: »

Fair play to you working with these people on the frontline of things, but that's kind of my point, if we had a legitimate state-sponsored programme where addicts could be treated in a legitimate state sponsored health & mental health driven programme, they would have a far better chance of ridding themselves of this addiction. Everyone just thinks of this disease as a chemical medicated problem, but it isn't, to have a safe place where these people can go to also talk to legitimate mental health professionals while they deal with their addiction would be a great step forward in killing this disease

The guy I knew was buying methadone illegally because the waiting list was so long you'd be dead before you got access.

looking_around

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Are you for real? To stop them robbing people, you want the taxpayers to give them free heroin with their medical cards? People dropping like flies, kids having medical cards taken off them, and you want the tax payers to carry the cost of a drug addiction? Are you actually serious

cheaper than prison.....
And all the societal crimes and harm to people that come with desperation for money....

Are you going to be morally judgemental about it...or consider in the long run, what actually works and is better for society.

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Why? If they're not strapped for cash, don't have to go through withdrawals etc, can still buy cans with their dole knowing the drugs are for free, where's the incentive to get off it?
Where's the incentive to pay for their own medical treatment? Their own house? Their own way of life? Give up their free travel?
They'd be mad! A state that wants to fund their addiction as well as everything else, sure why would they want to get better?

Why does anyone work for these things now? You think funding or not funding heroin would make a difference in this aspect? why?

corner of hells

buried wrote: »

Fair play to you working with these people on the frontline of things, but that's kind of my point, if we had a legitimate state-sponsored programme where addicts could be treated in a legitimate state sponsored health & mental health driven programme, they would have a far better chance of ridding themselves of this addiction. Everyone just thinks of this disease as a chemical medicated problem, but it isn't, to have a safe place where these people can go to also talk to legitimate mental health professionals while they deal with their addiction would be a great step forward in killing this disease

Again I get what you're saying.. but providing a drug that's essentially an escape and trying to ease mental health issues at the same would be very difficult.

We are actually moving forward in Ireland albeit slowly .. with a drugs court , stronger harm reduction , naloxone provision , outreach. . But we still fail.miserably in some things.