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Saorview Connect

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Comments

  • #362
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,088 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    I see there is a channel in the clear on Astra 28.2 11778 V

    Name Packages Encryption SID VPID Audio PMT PCR
    IEPG data 1 Sky Digital Clear 4189 648 86 8190

    which implies EPG data. I have read references to this being used to get 7 day EPG info.
    I do not know if doing so is without problems or not.

    Here is an example of what I read
    http://blogs.angloinfo.com/television-and-technology/2013/01/04/how-to-get-a-7-day-program-guide-on-a-free-to-air-satellite-receiver-uk-tv-costa-blanca-calida/


  • #363
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,088 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    SteM wrote: »
    So Freesat have exclusive rights for the EPG data for all UK satellite channels? To use it and display it on an EPG it must be licensed from Freesat, you can't go directly to the source. Seems an odd situation that individual channels do not have control of the information they compile.
    I have been looking and searching and I cannot find anything that states that Freesat has exclusive rights to this data.
    In fact it is hardly possible, as I expect Sky also has the information in their version of an EPG.

    Also there are many sites of long standing with the info available, from which scrapers get the info into non-Freesat STBs.
    I doubt they could remain on line if they were breaching some exclusive right.

    If anyone has some links which deal with this I would be grateful if you could post them.
    This is an important part of a decent STB, which we hope Saorview will provide.
    I don't understand how the actual channels themselves are not in a position to sell or provide free access to the schedule data that they generate.


  • #364
    Tony
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,353 ✭✭✭✭Tony


    There are two methods currently in use for programme information


    EIT data also known an "now and next information" is free to use and combo boxes use this right now .

    The Freesat EPG is produced and maintained by Freesat and is a single data stream for all channels. This is what produces the 7 day epg.



    Johnboy1951 wrote: »
    I fail to understand how you come to this conclusion.

    The EPG data is produced by the channels themselves and Freesat uses it to present it in a particular manner in their IPG.

    On what basis do you believe that Freesat 'owns' the raw data from the channels?

    Owner: satellite.ie https://satellite.ie/



  • #365
    STB.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    Johnboy1951 wrote: »
    I see there is a channel in the clear on Astra 28.2 11778 V

    Name Packages Encryption SID VPID Audio PMT PCR
    IEPG data 1 Sky Digital Clear 4189 648 86 8190

    which implies EPG data. I have read references to this being used to get 7 day EPG info.
    I do not know if doing so is without problems or not.

    That is Sky's Openepg data. Most Linux boxes have the plugin to load it from the transponder. Despite its name and the fact that you can load it OTA, its not meant to be open at all.

    The centralized Freesat's EPG data on the Frresat TP is compressed in Huffman tables, is not encrypted and therefore is open for use. The copyright pertains to using the name Freesat and or its logos which is not an issue.

    The problem Saorview have is that they engaged the very company who wont implement this in the Freetime software as they themselves are Freesat! Its not a rights issue, its a simple no. They picked the wrong company to do business with. UK stations exist in Ireland and have done for some time. The fact that the elephant in the room is wearing a dickie boe is irrelevant, there is still an elephant in the room.

    Non Freesat data i.e. Event Information for individual stations stations is only available in now/next format and the data will only refresh when physically entering each individual TP by channel selection.


  • #366
    Tony
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,353 ✭✭✭✭Tony


    They can provide the data to saorview if they choose to, so far they have chosen not to.

    SteM wrote: »
    TLDR, I don't understand how the actual channels themselves are not in a position to sell or provide free access to the schedule data that they generate.

    Owner: satellite.ie https://satellite.ie/



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  • #367
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,088 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    Tony wrote: »
    There are two methods currently in use for programme information


    EIT data also known an "now and next information" is free to use and combo boxes use this right now .

    The Freesat EPG is produced and maintained by Freesat and is a single data stream for all channels. This is what produces the 7 day epg.

    Tony, you do not seem to take on board that it is not the Freesat EPG that I am referring to. In fact I specifically excluded that.

    The Freesat EPG must get its information from somewhere in order to display it in the manner they have developed.

    Where is it said that Freesat have exclusive rights to the source of this information?

    You apparently believe Freesat has exclusive rights to the source, and I do not.

    I am open to correction if you can but point me to a link that says so.


  • #368
    Tony
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,353 ✭✭✭✭Tony


    Ok let me try and break this down to more black and white terms.

    Freesat generate the datastream that is used for the 7 day epg.

    Freesat wont allow this datastream to be used in the saorview connect software which they are providing to saorview.

    Saorview cannot force them to do so as a 7 day epg for satellite was not in the tender.



    Johnboy1951 wrote: »
    Tony, you do not seem to take on board that it is not the Freesat EPG that I am referring to. In fact I specifically excluded that.

    The Freesat EPG must get its information from somewhere in order to display it in the manner they have developed.

    Where is it said that Freesat have exclusive rights to the source of this information?

    You apparently believe Freesat has exclusive rights to the source, and I do not.

    I am open to correction if you can but point me to a link that says so.

    Owner: satellite.ie https://satellite.ie/



  • #369
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,088 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    Tony wrote: »
    Ok let me try and break this down to more black and white terms.

    Freesat generate the datastream that is used for the 7 day epg.

    Freesat wont allow this datastream to be used in the saorview connect software which they are providing to saorview.

    Saorview cannot force them to do so as a 7 day epg for satellite was not in the tender.

    I am not addressing Freesat's data stream nor their EPG software.

    In order for Freesat to tell you that Episode 21 of some series in going to be broadcast on Channel Tony in 5 days time, they must get that information (data) from someone who knows. That data/knowledge is with Channel Tony.
    Freesat do not determine what is broadcast so they are NOT the source of the information.

    So, why do you think Freesat owns the source data?


  • #370
    Tony
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,353 ✭✭✭✭Tony


    Ok lets say for now for the sake of argument that freesat do not own the data source, how do you propose to force them to implement a 7 day epg for satellite channels on Saorview connect?
    Johnboy1951 wrote: »

    So, why do you think Freesat owns the source data?

    Owner: satellite.ie https://satellite.ie/



  • #371
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,088 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    STB. wrote: »
    Non Freesat data i.e. Event Information for individual stations stations is only available in now/next format and the data will only refresh when physically entering each individual TP by channel selection.

    Freesat get the data for their 7 Day EPG so they must get it from somewhere.

    Tony reckons they 'own' or have 'exclusive rights' to this source data.

    I would like some authoritative reference to that fact.
    I have found none in my searching.
    None has been provided in this or any other thread I have read on Boards.

    On the contrary there are many sites and STBs which have this same data, and I find it very difficult to believe that all of them are breaching some ownership or exclusive right to this data.


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  • #372
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,088 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    Tony wrote: »
    Ok lets say for now for the sake of argument that freesat do not own the data source, how do you propose to force them to implement a 7 day epg for satellite channels on Saorview connect?

    Force? Force who?

    RTÉ/Saorview are producing the STB, from what I have read.
    They have agreed with a third party (Freesat) to provide the means for a video on demand service in the STB.

    Unless RTÉ mucked up, yet again, they still retain the rights to their STB and what functions it performs.

    You seem to imply otherwise.


  • #373
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,392 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Could not RTE enter into a supplementary contract with Freesat to add the EPG data into Saorviews own EPG format?

    Surely a new tender would not be required.


  • #374
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,088 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Could not RTE enter into a supplementary contract with Freesat to add the EPG data into Saorviews own EPG format?

    Surely a new tender would not be required.

    Could they not do it themselves from the source data? ...... or is the whole software/firmware provided by only one entity - Freesat - with RTÉ having no control at all over what happens?

    If that is the case then the whole thing is a shambles, IMO!


  • #375
    STB.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    Johnboy1951 wrote: »
    Freesat get the data for their 7 Day EPG so they must get it from somewhere.

    Tony reckons they 'own' or have 'exclusive rights' to this source data.

    I would like some authoritative reference to that fact.
    I have found none in my searching.
    None has been provided in this or any other thread I have read on Boards.

    On the contrary there are many sites and STBs which have this same data, and I find it very difficult to believe that all of them are breaching some ownership or exclusive right to this data.

    You need to re-read what I posted.

    There are 2 sources of 7 day epg. One owned by Sky. One Owned by Freesat. Both of these on separate TP's.

    The Sky one you quoted is proprietary but already reverse engineered in the open.

    The Freesat one is on a narrow spotbeam TP covering Ireland and the UK. It is not encrypted so its access is as open as the channels themselves.

    The only other epg data is via event information broadcast by the channels themselves on each individual transponder which is confined to now and next.

    As Tony says it wasn't part of the tender so Saorview are fecked and Freesat can tell them to feck off.


  • #376
    Tony
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,353 ✭✭✭✭Tony


    They could be Freesat seem unwilling to do this so far.

    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Could not RTE enter into a supplementary contract with Freesat to add the EPG data into Saorviews own EPG format?

    Surely a new tender would not be required.

    Owner: satellite.ie https://satellite.ie/



  • #377
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,088 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    @STB
    You might also re-read what I am asking
    Freesat get the data for their 7 Day EPG so they must get it from somewhere.

    From where do they get this information and who says they have exclusive rights to the source of this data?
    As you say Sky have similar information, so obviously it is not exclusive.

    The source data for future programming for all those channels exists and both Sky and Freesat use it to produce their own versions of an EPG.

    I continue to ask about that source data, and have no interest in any entities version of an EPG based on that data, in this context.

    If the tender accepted hands over all rights to the software/firmware in this new box then yes RTÉ are fecked ...... and they fecked themselves!


  • #378
    Tony
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,353 ✭✭✭✭Tony


    Johnboy1951 wrote: »
    or is the whole software/firmware provided by only one entity - Freesat -

    Correct, they won the contract to provide the service.

    Owner: satellite.ie https://satellite.ie/



  • #379
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,088 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    Tony wrote: »
    Correct, they won the contract to provide the service.

    Oh well that is the end of that box so, unless they can agree with Freesat to provide a 7 day EPG for the Sat section. :(


    I would though like to hear about the source data for the 7 day EPG (no matter who produces it) and who claims ownership or rights to it.

    Maybe a separate thread on the subject would be in order ...


  • #380
    Tony
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,353 ✭✭✭✭Tony


    I respectfully disagree.
    Johnboy1951 wrote: »
    Oh well that is the end of that box so, unless they can agree with Freesat to provide a 7 day EPG for the Sat section. :(

    Owner: satellite.ie https://satellite.ie/



  • #381
    Hibrasil
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 392 ✭✭Hibrasil


    I may be misreading developments but looking at this link:-
    http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2015/09/10/freesat-launches-tv-guide-for-international-operators/
    it appears that Freesat have plans to offer a version of its "connected TV Guide solution" to international operators and manufacturers. The first client to use the system, branded ‘Metaphor’, is the Italian Tivùsat.

    Does the Metaphor Forwards Guide (rather than Now and Next) show 8 days of programmes.

    http://www.metaphortv.com/feature/forwards-guide/


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  • #382
    Tony
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,353 ✭✭✭✭Tony


    Yes the software can show 8 day forward no problem

    Hibrasil wrote: »
    I may be misreading developments but looking at this link:-
    http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2015/09/10/freesat-launches-tv-guide-for-international-operators/
    it appears that Freesat have plans to offer a version of its "connected TV Guide solution" to international operators and manufacturers. The first client to use the system, branded ‘Metaphor’, is the Italian Tivùsat.

    Does the Metaphor Forwards Guide (rather than Now and Next) show 8 days of programmes.

    http://www.metaphortv.com/feature/forwards-guide/

    Owner: satellite.ie https://satellite.ie/



  • #383
    Apogee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,899 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Saorview could licence the data from a third party, not necessarily Freesat. We've seen how Sony TVs use Gracenote data for the satellite channels.

    336968.jpg

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=94065705&postcount=11


  • #384
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,088 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    Apogee wrote: »
    Saorview could licence the data from a third party, not necessarily Freesat. We've seen how Sony TVs use Gracenote data for the satellite channels.

    Not without Freesat's approval apparently!


  • #385
    STB.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    Johnboy1951 wrote: »
    @STB
    You might also re-read what I am asking

    Your question is where do they get it from ?

    The broadcasters. Freesat centrally coordinates and maintains this data from the broadcasters. They have a licence from Ofcom to do so.
    http://www.freesat.co.uk/about-freesat/epg-listing-policy

    The data TP is presented on 28E 11425 H DVB-S QPSK 27500 2/3.

    The data itself is presented unencrypted like the channels themselves.

    Freesat are saying.... yeah we acknowledge that our stations broadcast outside the country, but you are not having the epg even though its free to air also. Why ? They used UK tax payers money to gather it. Its one thing acknowledging it, another confirming it by re-packaging it.

    What would have happened if Freesat were not the solution provider for Ireland ? Nothing ! It would be provided, as no copyright is being breached, if the data is accessed and presented in a non freesat look. It would appear that Methaphor who developed the Freetime software for Freesat are now being told that there is limits to their relicensing of that software (in so far as it should not access data or populate from the data tp) . Its really only applicable to Ireland !


  • #386
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,392 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    [QUOTE=STB.;99403878
    Freesat are saying.... yeah we acknowledge that our stations broadcast outside the country, but you are not having the epg even though its free to air also. Why ? They used UK tax payers money.

    [/QUOTE]

    But RTE are paying Freesat to provide the solution, not the UK taxpayer.


  • #387
    Tony
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,353 ✭✭✭✭Tony


    Yes the solution is for the saorview platform only though.

    Sam Russell wrote: »
    But RTE are paying Freesat to provide the solution, not the UK taxpayer.

    Owner: satellite.ie https://satellite.ie/



  • #388
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,088 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    STB. wrote: »
    Your question is where do they get it from ?

    The broadcasters.

    That is what I thought, thanks for confirming.
    The data TP is presented on 28E 11425 H DVB-S QPSK 27500 2/3.

    The data itself is presented unencrypted like the channels themselves.

    Thanks.
    What would have happened if Freesat were not the solution provider for Ireland ? Nothing ! It would be provided, as no copyright is being breached, if the data is accessed and presented in a non freesat look. Unfortunately Methaphor who developed the Freetime software for Freesat are now being told that there is limits to their relicensing of that software. Its really only applicable to Ireland !

    This has been my stand all along. Thanks for confirming.


  • #389
    Alun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,548 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    STB. wrote: »
    The data TP is presented on 28E 11425 H DVB-S QPSK 27500 2/3.

    The data itself is presented unencrypted like the channels themselves.
    It's not encrypted as such, but it is compressed using Huffman encoding, and you have to have the tables to be able to decompress it.


  • #390
    STB.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    Alun wrote: »
    It's not encrypted as such, but it is compressed using Huffman encoding, and you have to have the tables to be able to decompress it.

    Encoding is not encryption though Alun..

    The data stream is sent in the open and grabbed by easily available tools.


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  • #391
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,090 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    STB. wrote: »
    It would appear that Methaphor who developed the Freetime software for Freesat

    The other way round, Metaphor is a development of Freetime by Freesat. It was launched last Sept by Freesat as a connected TV guide solution for international terrestrial, satellite and cable operators, commercialized and marketed under the name Metaphor. It's making its debut at the TV Connect show in London shortly.

    There have been 2 official press releases on Saorview Connect from Freesat and Saorview and no mention of a sat TV solution as part of the agreement.

    Regarding the epg data, it isn't available via the Freesat transponder for whatever licensing and contractual agreement reasons to Saorview but as Apogee points out above there shouldn't be anything preventing Saorview licensing the data from each respective channel, if they would supply it, and carrying it as a separate data stream on another transponder. The downside would be the licensing and transponder costs. On Saorview Red Bee were contracted to compile the epg metadata from the programme data supplied by each channel.

    Another question is what actual FTA sat channels will be auto-tuneable on these new receivers, I'm assuming some sort of agreement will have to be reached with the respective channels to include them in a managed LCN order. Could some channels object, ITV/UTV, Sky News, Pick etc.?

    On Freesat the channels pay an initial and annual fee for the privilege of being included, will there be something similar with these connected combi receivers?


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