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The Panama Papers

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    #122
    Andalucia
    Registered Users Posts: 553 ✭✭✭Andalucia


    hope to God someone is able to do the digging required to unearth the truth around the Frank Flannery element - who had the 250k in the BVI a/c used as collateral on his mortgage

    never liked him


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    #123
    lightspeed
    Registered Users Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭lightspeed


    The fundamentals of this story is nothing new. Big banks have always helped people dodge tax and worse.

    Below link is short article from 2012 highlighting $32 trillion been scurried away by big investment banks to help wealthy people avoid paying tax. In reality obviously all wealthy people will have tax advisers who will get paid handsomely.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2012/07/2012722145418435676.html

    They hardly going to advise their clients how best to legally pay their taxes when they can help them avoid paying tax all together.

    Al jazerra also have an article on the panama leak and I'd imagine they will have a programme on it shortly.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/04/data-leak-reveals-world-wealthy-hide-money-160403192018665.html

    "
    Charles Intriago, an expert in offshore banking, told Al Jazeera that there may be 60 to 65 other countries besides Panama where such activities were taking place.

    "Let’s not forget that here’s a relatively small country that is a major banking centre but it’s only one country through one law firm," he said.

    "So if you multiply that times 60, including some of the major secrecy havens like Switzerland, Liechtenstein, the Caribbean islands and others, you’re talking about a massive number of people who are hiding money of one type or another," he said.


    The ICIJ said the documents included emails, financial spreadsheets, passports and corporate records detailing how powerful figures used banks, law firms and offshore shell companies to hide their assets. The data spanned a timeframe of nearly 40 years, from 1977 to the end of 2015, it said".


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    #124
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,848 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    lightspeed wrote: »
    The fundamentals of this story is nothing new. Big banks have always helped people dodge tax and worse.

    Mossacks Fonseca is not a bank, it's a firm which acts like a broker. It's their job to trick banks, governments, regulatory bodies, investment watch-dogs, the tax-collectors.. and they've been doing a great job of it .. until today

    It's just coming out now that they've also been helping sanctioned entities, like a North Korean firm, that's a big no-no.. I cannot express how much deep **** this company is now in


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    #125
    lightspeed
    Registered Users Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭lightspeed


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Mossacks Fonseca is not a bank, it's a firm which acts like a broker. It's their job to trick banks, governments, regulatory bodies, investment watch-dogs, the tax-collectors.. and they've been doing a great job of it .. until today

    It's just coming out now that they've also been helping sanctioned entities, like a North Korean firm, that's a big no-no.. I cannot express how much deep **** this company is now in

    What are you talking about?

    How many times have banks been in similar trouble and just pay few billion in fines and smile for the cameras?

    When you say "sanctioned entities" is that like the time HSBC was fined $1.9 billion for dealing with Iran when sanctions were in place against them?

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-hsbc-probe-idUSBRE8BA05M20121211

    The above is peanuts in the long scheme of things and considering these papers supposedly prove they been running these tax avoidance schemes for the past 40 years, im sure such a figure like 10 billion or so would be equally peanuts.

    The world will forget this in a matter of weeks and that law firm just like all the big investment bankers will still be laughing all the way to the bank.

    My favourite part was how you mentioned they responsible for tricking the banks. As if the banks and cartels that run them would have to be tricked given how honest and clean banking as an industry is.

    Given the level of corruption in places like Russia, Africa, Middle East, where else do you think the money goes?


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    #126
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,848 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    lightspeed wrote: »
    When you say "sanctioned entities" is that like the time HSBC was fined $1.9 billion for dealing with Iran when sanctions were in place against them?

    Exactly, entities that care about cash don't like being fined billions. There's the reputational cost, they have to invest heavily in compliance and risk to avoid a repeat, they get bad press, their investors and shareholders certainly aren't happy, share prices are affected
    The world will forget this in a matter of weeks and that law firm just like all the big investment bankers will still be laughing all the way to the bank.

    Doubtful it will be forgotten, will just leave the front page as public interest wanes. France and Australia have announced investigations, there will be many investigations, its going to get ugly

    Can almost guarantee that Mosseks Fonseca will not survive this. The other top 3 offshore law firms are now under serious threat.. in fact the whole industry is

    Not sure what all your ire toward investment banks is, it's a service, if they weren't there someone else would be underwriting, trading, issuing, etc


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    #127
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users Posts: 8,398 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    There is a willingness from various law enforcement agencies around the world to investigate this crime with the most severest sanctions being imposed on individuals from the get go. We're talking about famous or infamous people's careers potentially being implicated for years to come because of this scandal coming to light right in front of their very eyes. If the Panama Papers does uncover severe implications for a celebrity or for a politician who is found to have done something illegal in the eyes of their own government. They are not going to get away with this as they would have nowhere to hide.

    This investigation is letting these people know who were implicated in this scandal that this type of secrecy is now not going to become acceptable from today. This investigation in a way does not just go through the wide ranging processing millions of documents and letting individuals know how to legally pay their money. This is a way from law enforcement agencies & governments to come down hard by telling their people that dodging taxes in offshore banks accounts is now beginning to become an intolerable crime for society's needs if there was severe criminality involved to make it probably last forever.

    This tax scandal really marks a beginning of an end in a lot of ways. This is simply not about companies or individuals not paying their fair contribution to their governments. It's a form of social justice that is going to be held accountable to every common man on the street which is going to last for life. This is going to result to people being informed & by their governments that anybody of any class; either as employed or unemployed; will have to pay their fair share of tax in a non-discriminate circumstance to keep their public services afloat and as a way of keeping a government balance sheet under very significant controls.

    I would wait to see if anything significant implications for Ireland involved in this scandal. I would also like to see it as a big benefit to happen for Ireland if it does result in getting more money being paid to the government in the form of more tax revenue for the state.


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    #128
    TheHillOfDoom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 794 ✭✭✭TheHillOfDoom


    I've only seen one name. Is there a list of Irish with accounts there?


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    #129
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Nope, Apparently it was all to catch that Russia fella no one else was mentioned...


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    #130
    TheHillOfDoom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 794 ✭✭✭TheHillOfDoom


    Is there an Irish source? I'm on twitter but they are all international sources with no links to Ireland. I'm interested because I worked with/for the one name I've seen and I'm curious about another name as to whether it's there.


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    #131
    Samaris
    Registered Users Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    Someone linked a site that's publishing the names of companies at least, sortable by country. I think it's in the first post of the main Panama Papers thread.


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    #132
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    TheHillOfDoom wrote: »
    Is there an Irish source? I'm on twitter but they are all international sources with no links to Ireland. I'm interested because I worked with/for the one name I've seen and I'm curious about another name as to whether it's there.

    I would not hold yer breath, Nama was reported outside the state first.


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    #133
    TheHillOfDoom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 794 ✭✭✭TheHillOfDoom


    Samaris wrote: »
    Someone linked a site that's publishing the names of companies at least, sortable by country. I think it's in the first post of the main Panama Papers thread.
    Thanks - sorry I didn't notice a dedicated thread. Where is that?


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    #134
    Samaris
    Registered Users Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    Ah, it had gone onto the second page - here it is
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057580859


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    #135
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Implicated in what, you see, is the issue.

    The reporting thus far has implied that the people and companies mentioned within the papers are up to nefarious and illegal dealings. When much of it is perfectly legal.

    If you start naming people, they're going to sue you for defamation.

    When more information and names are taken from the papers, you will see very little reporting of names by the Irish media unless they're certain they're reporting it correctly and without bias.


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    #136
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Can almost guarantee that Mosseks Fonseca will not survive this.
    Not a chance, they're finished. Between the lawsuits from clients and mass exodus of their current client base, they'll be bankrupt and shut down by the end of the year.


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    #137
    TheHillOfDoom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 794 ✭✭✭TheHillOfDoom


    Can anyone tell me Irish names involved?


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    #138
    TheHillOfDoom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 794 ✭✭✭TheHillOfDoom


    You can report the names of people who held accounts there (legitimately or otherwise) without casting aspersions on their character.


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    #139
    TheHillOfDoom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 794 ✭✭✭TheHillOfDoom


    Irish Times taking a cautious approach as usual. Where is the Daily Mail lol.


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    #140
    Gyalist
    Registered Users Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭Gyalist


    A dose of realpolitik from former British ambassador, Craig Murray:
    Whoever leaked the Mossack Fonseca papers appears motivated by a genuine desire to expose the system that enables the ultra wealthy to hide their massive stashes, often corruptly obtained and all involved in tax avoidance. These Panamanian lawyers hide the wealth of a significant proportion of the 1%, and the massive leak of their documents ought to be a wonderful thing.

    Unfortunately the leaker has made the dreadful mistake of turning to the western corporate media to publicise the results. In consequence the first major story, published today by the Guardian, is all about Vladimir Putin and a cellist on the fiddle. As it happens I believe the story and have no doubt Putin is bent.

    But why focus on Russia? Russian wealth is only a tiny minority of the money hidden away with the aid of Mossack Fonseca. In fact, it soon becomes obvious that the selective reporting is going to stink.

    The Suddeutsche Zeitung, which received the leak, gives a detailed explanation of the methodology the corporate media used to search the files. The main search they have done is for names associated with breaking UN sanctions regimes. The Guardian reports this too and helpfully lists those countries as Zimbabwe, North Korea, Russia and Syria. The filtering of this Mossack Fonseca information by the corporate media follows a direct western governmental agenda. There is no mention at all of use of Mossack Fonseca by massive western corporations or western billionaires – the main customers. And the Guardian is quick to reassure that “much of the leaked material will remain private.”

    What do you expect? The leak is being managed by the grandly but laughably named “International Consortium of Investigative Journalists”, which is funded and organised entirely by the USA’s Center for Public Integrity. Their funders include

    Ford Foundation
    Carnegie Endowment
    Rockefeller Family Fund
    W K Kellogg Foundation
    Open Society Foundation (Soros)

    among many others. Do not expect a genuine expose of western capitalism. The dirty secrets of western corporations will remain unpublished.

    Expect hits at Russia, Iran and Syria and some tiny “balancing” western country like Iceland. A superannuated UK peer or two will be sacrificed – someone already with dementia.

    Read the full article here -
    Corporate Media Gatekeepers Protect Western 1% From Panama Leak

    My view is that the main reason that Iceland has been named is because they had the temerity to "burn the bondholders" in the last financial crisis. Like the pimps that they are, the banks and the elite that control them do not take kindly to being stiffed for their money.


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    #141
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    TheHillOfDoom wrote: »
    You can report the names of people who held accounts there (legitimately or otherwise) without casting aspersions on their character.
    Nyeh....it's a dangerous one. If you mention in a report that Vladimir Putin had illegal dealings and in the same report, name drop an Irish person, you risk implying that there's a link.

    There are ways to protect yourself, but it's not straightforward.

    At this stage anyway, I don't think any Irish names have been spotted yet except Frank Flannery.


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    #142
    Mr. CooL ICE
    Registered Users Posts: 17,536 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    Mod: Ermahthrerdmerge


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    #143
    Elmer Blooker
    Registered Users Posts: 6,090 ✭✭✭Elmer Blooker


    Gyalist wrote: »
    A dose of realpolitik from former British ambassador, Craig Murray:


    My view is that the main reason that Iceland has been named is because they had the temerity to "burn the bondholders" in the last financial crisis. Like the pimps that they are, the banks and the elite that control them do not take lightly to being stiffed for their money.
    No wonder he's a former ambassador!!

    I've just heard the nine o clock news and it seems there's a major North Korea connection, so as I suspected, these Panama papers are not all about clamping down on tax dodgers. (the Iceland PM is merely collateral damage) Of course it was also an opportunity not to be missed to spread lies and dirt about Putin.
    I never heard of the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists until yesterday and I must admit I was absolutely amazed that this consortium is based in Washington - I didn't see that coming!
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/panama-papers-mossack-fonseca-helped-firm-with-links-to-north-korea-s-nuclear-weapons-programme-a6968951.html


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    #144
    josip
    Registered Users Posts: 13,812 ✭✭✭✭josip


    seamus wrote: »
    Nyeh....it's a dangerous one. If you mention in a report that Vladimir Putin had illegal dealings and in the same report, name drop an Irish person, you risk implying that there's a link.

    Implication by association is very easy to do and can be quite misleading.

    Eg. I really liked Gyalist's post from Craig Murray. It seemed informative, well balanced and developed on questions other posters had raised.
    So I thanked it.
    Now I've noticed that the other poster who thanked it has posted a less balanced "lies about Putin" post.

    So have I now implicitly placed myself in the same camp as someone who is possibly a Putin apologist?
    Should I remove my thanks to prevent any association?


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    #145
    Elmer Blooker
    Registered Users Posts: 6,090 ✭✭✭Elmer Blooker


    josip wrote: »
    Implication by association is very easy to do and can be quite misleading.

    Eg. I really liked Gyalist's post from Craig Murray. It seemed informative, well balanced and developed on questions other posters had raised.
    So I thanked it.
    Now I've noticed that the other poster who thanked it has posted a less balanced "lies about Putin" post.

    So have I now implicitly placed myself in the same camp as someone who is possibly a Putin apologist?
    Should I remove my thanks to prevent any association?
    Putin's name is NOT on the list. Why should I be an apologist for Putin?
    I just don't swallow mindless propaganda hook line and sinker!
    I'm not sure what you mean by "less balanced" - I'm entitled to my opinion which seems to annoy certain posters here (not you)
    This is what “investigative journalism” has come to, printing billionaires’ enemy lists under the guise of “leaks”.


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    #146
    TheHillOfDoom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 794 ✭✭✭TheHillOfDoom


    Putin himself is not named. His inner circle is.


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    #147
    maudgonner
    Registered Users Posts: 5,455 ✭✭✭maudgonner


    TheHillOfDoom wrote: »
    Irish Times taking a cautious approach as usual. Where is the Daily Mail lol.

    Where is the Mail? They're busy conning stories out of the relatives of the Buncrana tragedy.

    You may think the Irish Times is overly cautious, I'd call it responsible and I'd prefer it to the tabloid method any day.


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    #148
    TheHillOfDoom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 794 ✭✭✭TheHillOfDoom


    maudgonner wrote: »
    Where is the Mail? They're busy conning stories out of the relatives of the Buncrana tragedy.

    You may think the Irish Times is overly cautious, I'd call it responsible and I'd prefer it to the tabloid method any day.

    The Irish Times are responsible? They cover their arses and then cover stories. Nothing responsible nor ethical about their reporting. They report the same ****e as everyone else while trying to ensure not to get sued.


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    #149
    HensVassal
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,570 ✭✭✭HensVassal


    NIMAN wrote: »
    I have no doubt no-one with see jail time over this.

    Why are the mega rich not happy being mega rich and want more?

    They aren't happy until they own everything and can charge you for the air you breath, the water you drink (which is already happening) and the sun that shines on you.


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    #150
    Samaris
    Registered Users Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    HensVassal wrote: »
    They aren't happy until they own everything and can charge you for the air you breath, the water you drink (which is already happening) and the sun that shines on you.

    "Oh, the Eir bill's arrived."
    "WE'RE BEING CHARGED FOR AIR?!"


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    #151
    HensVassal
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,570 ✭✭✭HensVassal


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    To be honest I know a fair few people who use all sorts of little tricks to evade tax, skim off work, avoid paying VAT, trick the social ..

    We're no angels, millionaires and people in power are just more in the spotlight, also bear in mind the Panama Papers implicate a certain number of people over 40 years, and there are some big names in there, but it's still a minority, there are plenty of politicians and wealthy people who fairly pay their taxes and don't use offshore accounts (that just doesn't make news)

    There's no excuse for any of it, but it's a broad problem in society, not just limited to the top

    What use is a politician if he can't be blackmailed.


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