Eircode - its implemetation (merged)

plodder wrote: »

One concern I have is that postcodes are generally anonymous and not subject to data protection. A foreign website might not be aware that Irish postcodes can be personally identifying and might be sharing information with other people about your purchases, thinking the information is anonymised. So, your eircode turns up on some list of areas where people bought product X from vendor Y and product W from vendor Z. Except it's not an area in our case. It's a household, and you might have expected that information to not be released.

The general concern (as expressed by the previous data protection commissioner) is that eircodes are very convenient unique tokens for use as database keys, a bit like PPS numbers. But everyone is cautious about giving out PPS numbers. Imagine the outcry if someone like Paypal asked for it, and said they'll give it to everyone you buy something off.


I have no idea what you are talking about.


paypal does that, not the merchant afaik. All the merchant needs is yea or nay from paypal, that the payment was okay... no?

So you don't have a problem with giving someone your postal address when you buy something using PayPal as a payment method but you do have a problem giving them your Eircode?

marmurr1916 wrote: »

And they'll also get the rest of the address. So if they wanted to do something dodgy with your address details they could do so with or without the Eircode.

It's not about the merchant doing something dodgy with it. I attempted to explain above one concern. If you don't agree with it - fair enough.

BTW, I sell on ebay and through my own website. Everyone who buys from me on ebay uses PayPal (it's the only form of payment I accept on ebay) and I get their full delivery address, including postcodes or Eircodes as appropriate. People who buy from my website can use a debit card or credit card for payment (payments processed by Stripe) or they can use PayPal.

Whichever method they choose, I get their full delivery and billing address(es), since they're required to enter both in the website before choosing a payment method.

If an Irish customer doesn't include an Eircode in the postcode field, I can either look it up or I can contact them and ask them to send it to me, explaining that I prefer to put an Eircode on non-unique addresses in Ireland (mainly addresses in rural townlands) to help ensure delivery. Nobody's refused so far. If they did refuse, I'd include their mobile or landline number (at least one is required when ordering) on the address label.

I used to always include customers' mobile or landline numbers on address labels when sending orders to non-unique addresses in Ireland before Eircodes were introduced. Otherwise, I risked the customer not being found and their orders being returned, then having to rearrange delivery at my own expense. I'm not prepared to risk that given the cost of sending orders from the UK to Ireland. If customers don't like having their phone numbers on address labels, they can give me their Eircodes instead.

That's fair enough. As I said above, it's your choice whether to insist on it or not and I think it's pragmatic to ask for a phone number if they don't provide an eircode.

Van.Bosch wrote: »

GPO?

the current building is a far cry from the one that was there in 1916 , its about three times bigger for a start

GJG wrote: »

This very gombeen-sounding concept of wanting to give out your full address but not your, y'know, full full address, for some unspecified reason is a strange argument against Eircode.

With paypal You don't always get the option to not give out your address - its up to the merchant they way they implement paypal.

games, ebooks, music, digital licences, concert tickets, website fees and shop vouchers etc. - they don't need a physical address as they are emailed why should I offer it up to them for no reason?

GJG wrote: »

This very gombeen-sounding concept of wanting to give out your full address but not your, y'know, full full address, for some unspecified reason is a strange argument against Eircode.

If the need to give an imprecise address springs from a supposed privacy concern, then where is the concern for the 60 - 70 per cent of addresses in the Republic that were already unique, prior to Eircode? Where is the concern in the North (or the whole UK) where the postcode + house number gives a unique identifier to every address in the country, and has done for decades?

And if the problem hasn't arisen in those decades, when will it?

UK Postcodes are not personal information. Eircodes are, so the situations are not comparable. Also addresses are not the same thing as postcodes. Postcodes are normally assumed to be anonymous and might not be handled with the same level of care as addresses, which can be assumed to be unique and personal.

It's perfectly okay for you to think that this isn't a problem, and maybe it won't be. This is the internet. We don't have to agree anyhow. But, at least try to understand the point and save me the bother of having to repeat it every few weeks.

Soooooo... any news about Google maps or Satnav support?

GJG wrote: »

I think you are drawing a distinction where there is no difference. The difference between a database using one field rather than two as a primary key is trivial. Thousands of companies in the UK use postcode + street number as a unique identifier for households.

But, they would be very careful to not release those two pieces of information together because they know that they uniquely identify a household.

There is zero difference between the implications of having someone's postcode + street number in the UK and having their Eircode in Ireland.

So long as you understand that an Eircode uniquely identifies households then there is no difference, but if you don't then there could be. Companies outside of Ireland might treat all postcodes the same - ie as anonymous tokens.

This was the key sentence in my post.

Postcodes are normally assumed to be anonymous and might not be handled with the same level of care as addresses, which can be assumed to be unique and personal.


and by the way, there seems to be some dispute about whether paypal provides addresses to all merchants whether they need it or not. You said they don't, but other posters seem to be saying that they do. I'd like to know if paypal will be giving my eircode to all merchants whether they need it or not.

plodder wrote: »

But, they would be very careful to not release those two pieces of information together because they know that they uniquely identify a household.

How do you know what level of care is taken by people and organisations who hold that type of information about people in the UK?

plodder wrote: »

So long as you understand that an Eircode uniquely identifies households then there is no difference, but if you don't then there could be. Companies outside of Ireland might treat all postcodes the same - ie as anonymous tokens.

This was the key sentence in my post.

Postcodes are normally assumed to be anonymous and might not be handled with the same level of care as addresses, which can be assumed to be unique and personal.

Proof for this assertion? If they're told it's a unique identifier (similar to the account numbers, customer id numbers etc, etc that they already deal with every day) why should they take less care with it (or more care with it) than other unique identifiers? For EU data-holders, it's not optional to do this - it's a requirement of EU data protection law.

The main issue is that huge amounts of data relating to people and organisations within the EU is handled outside of the EU and that it may not be handled within the parameters set by EU data protection law, one of the reasons that the ECJ ruled that the EU/USA Safe Harbour deal was invalid.

If they knew the shenanigans that happens with data processed in India and other countries, the ECJ would probably ban all non-EU processing of EU citizens' data.

I genuinely don't think that people and organisations that are careful to comply with EU data protection law will handle Eircodes more carelessly than they do other unique identifiers. By the same token, I genuinely don't think that people who don't comply with EU data protection law are going to be careful with Eircodes. The law-abiding operations will continue to obey the law; the sloppy chancers and the data thieves will continue to partially implement or completely flout the law - Eircodes won't change that one whit one way or the other.

plodder wrote: »

and by the way, there seems to be some dispute about whether paypal provides addresses to all merchants whether they need it or not. You said they don't, but other posters seem to be saying that they do. I'd like to know if paypal will be giving my eircode to all merchants whether they need it or not.

If you pay me using PayPal, I'll be getting your full address, including Eircode.

Beware, I'll know where you live....:D :eek: :P

Almost every merchant will be getting your Eircode if you use PayPal.

Mainly because very few sell only products that don't require delivery. Most sell a mixture of product types, some that require delivery, some that don't.

I'm not going to go to the trouble or expense of configuring my website so that different types of products will have different customer details forms.

Maybe some websites will but my guess is that it will be quite a small percentage of the total.

threeiron wrote: »

Is it An Post that is blocking an agreement with Google maps? If it is then looks like the July 13th anniversary will come and go a few times before an increase in Eircodes uptake is facilitated.

Why would An Post be blocking it?

ukoda wrote: »

Why would An Post be blocking it?

GeoDirectory is a service jointly opened by the OSI and AN Post, the licensing arrangements for Eircode are primarily driven by the licensing costs associated with GeoDirectories, rurmor has it that the pricing initially offered to Goggle was very very high

Given An post historical antipathy to postcodes, you can do the math yourself

ukoda wrote: »

But weren't they paid €9 million already for use of their geodirectory by eircode? Surely they can't be back for more money if eircode want to resell the ECAD to google? Also, Google already purchased a copy of the geodirectory at some stage as it's listed as a source for their maps content on one of the disclaimer pages I'm sure

The licensing costs of Ericode are fundamentally a function of the internal licensing costs with Geodirectory

Google cant affect Eircode licensing by having a geodirectory license

the rumour is that Anpost want aggressive Geodirectory licensing as it didn't want post codes as it saw these gave its courier rivals a leg up. in that regard Google maps and Eircode integration would damage its competitive position

ukoda wrote: »

What I was getting at was: if they were willing to pay the geodirectory licence would Google not be willing to pay the eircode licence, but it seems you are implying it's being priced to be unattractive?

Do you think it will get sorted in the short term?

yes I believe that the pricing for large users was unattractive , which is why I believe the minister got involved.

I believe it is sorted now and its a function of Googled priority plans

because every postcode in the world apart from Eircode is anonymous.

I see UK post codes along with a publicly purchasable database with identifies every house is " anonymous "

the fact is the reverse of your statement is true, most postcodes , often with commercially available extensions are unique