Eircode - its implemetation (merged)

plodder · 14-03-2016 11:49PM

ukoda wrote: »

Is Google going to batch append your customer records for you?

Can you throw a few hundred thousand records per day at google maps and get address matches?

Is Google going to do address validation on your website for you?

Is Google going to integrate eircode into your CRM system for you?

You're aware that you can look up a UK postcode on Google maps for free, yet the PAF operates a successful licence per transaction model the same as eircode. It's no different.

Well, I've always said that address validation should be paid for. It's just that currently without google on board, you have to pay for all other uses as well. Eg, if you want to look up more than 15 addresses per day, technically you are supposed to pay for it commercially.

google obviously isn't going to integrate anything for you, but Eircode isn't either. Third parties will though.

It's true also that large quantities of commercial google map lookups ( > 10's of thousands per day) have to be paid for as well but their terms are much more relaxed, and typically free of charge for non commercial uses.

ukoda · 21-03-2016 11:10AM

http://m.independent.ie/opinion/editorial/eircode-must-deliver-in-college-grants-test-34557546.html

Mandatory from next month for students to provide an eircode when applying for a grant via the SUSI system

plodder · 21-03-2016 11:39AM

ukoda wrote: »

http://m.independent.ie/opinion/editorial/eircode-must-deliver-in-college-grants-test-34557546.html

Mandatory from next month for students to provide an eircode when applying for a grant via the SUSI system

Seems reasonable. It's stupid for the state to not use it for purposes like this. What I don't get is why the likes of paypal are making it mandatory, especially when they only make a half-baked attempt at validating it.

ukoda · 21-03-2016 11:43AM

plodder wrote: »

Seems reasonable. It's stupid for the state to not use it for purposes like this. What I don't get is why the likes of paypal are making it mandatory, especially when they only make a half-baked attempt at validating it.

Well PayPal will be looking at it from an abstract perspective, they have obviously heard Ireland had a postcode and have asked someone for the format parameters and then used it to make people put in their correct postcode. As mentioned before, PayPal never write to anyone nor do they deliver to anyone so they just went with a basic "it should look like this" option

BailMeOut · 21-03-2016 12:12PM

plodder wrote: »

Seems reasonable. It's stupid for the state to not use it for purposes like this. What I don't get is why the likes of paypal are making it mandatory, especially when they only make a half-baked attempt at validating it.

Isn't your paypal address what the merchant uses when shipping goods to you?

plodder · 21-03-2016 12:14PM

BailMeOut wrote: »

Isn't your paypal address what the merchant uses when shipping goods to you?

Yes, but why make it mandatory? If someone doesn't want to use it, why force them?

Sam Russell · 21-03-2016 12:17PM

plodder wrote: »

Yes, but why make it mandatory? If someone doesn't want to use it, why force them?

If you are giving out money to people, it would be reasonable that you make the rules. I presume that applicants must give their PPS number, so adding the Eircode is not much extra.

BailMeOut · 21-03-2016 12:21PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

If you are giving out money to people, it would be reasonable that you make the rules. I presume that applicants must give their PPS number, so adding the Eircode is not much extra.

They verify your address against your credit card so if your credit card has your Eircode it gives them another thing to verify against.

GJG · 22-03-2016 11:49PM

plodder wrote: »

Seems reasonable. It's stupid for the state to not use it for purposes like this. What I don't get is why the likes of paypal are making it mandatory, especially when they only make a half-baked attempt at validating it.

...

Yes, but why make it mandatory? If someone doesn't want to use it, why force them?

It seems that the word 'yet' doesn't exist in the vocabulary of people who are against Eircode. PayPal are a banking service who have significant issues with fraud (like other banks) and it should be blindingly obvious that they need to unambiguously verify the identity and addresses of customers.

This development project can take some time, but the natural first step is to start capturing the data as soon as possible. When validation systems are in place, it is an easy step to run a query and flag any false or inconsistent entries, and force validation of new data as of is entered.

This whole trope of whether Eircode is mandatory or optional is getting ridiculous. The question asked at the time was whether post would be delivered without the Eircode and the answer was Yes (although I would be surprised if that continued indefinitely). Nowhere was it said that you could veto other people from using your Eircode, or that businesses wouldn't be free to tell you to take your custom elsewhere if you wouldn't supply it.

A quick look at the various anti-Eircode stock puppet social media accounts will show you just how far down the rabbit-hole that guy has gone, fantasising about grand conspiracies against him.

We are in an age of online fraud and anti-money laundering laws. If you seriously think that you can indefinitely operate bank accounts while refusing to divulge to the bank your full address - including post code - then you might be following him.

plodder · 23-03-2016 09:43AM

GJG wrote: »

It seems that the word 'yet' doesn't exist in the vocabulary of people who are against Eircode. PayPal are a banking service who have significant issues with fraud (like other banks) and it should be blindingly obvious that they need to unambiguously verify the identity and addresses of customers.

This development project can take some time, but the natural first step is to start capturing the data as soon as possible. When validation systems are in place, it is an easy step to run a query and flag any false or inconsistent entries, and force validation of new data as of is entered.

This whole trope of whether Eircode is mandatory or optional is getting ridiculous.

The question asked at the time was whether post would be delivered without the Eircode and the answer was Yes (although I would be surprised if that continued indefinitely). Nowhere was it said that you could veto other people from using your Eircode, or that businesses wouldn't be free to tell you to take your custom elsewhere if you wouldn't supply it.

A quick look at the various anti-Eircode stock puppet social media accounts will show you just how far down the rabbit-hole that guy has gone, fantasising about grand conspiracies against him.

We are in an age of online fraud and anti-money laundering laws. If you seriously think that you can indefinitely operate bank accounts while refusing to divulge to the bank your full address - including post code - then you might be following him.

I have no problem with them using an Eircode for validation purposes, though given that addresses and eircodes are easily interchangeable it's questionable how much value it is. Regardless of that, I would prefer that I have control over who else receives it. You should be able to opt in or out of providing Eircodes to merchants. It is of little use to them, yet will clearly be provided as a side effect of this security measure. This is exactly the kind of issue that should be discussed calmly - not in the childish, sneering way you are coming across, depicting everyone as either binary for it or against it.

ukoda · 23-03-2016 09:47AM

plodder wrote: »

I have no problem with them using an Eircode for validation purposes, though given that addresses and eircodes are easily interchangeable it's questionable how much value it is. Regardless of that, I would prefer that I have control over who else receives it. You should be able to opt in or out of providing Eircodes to merchants. It is of little use to them, yet will clearly be provided as a side effect of this security measure. This is exactly the kind of issue that should be discussed calmly - not in the childish, sneering way you are coming across, depicting everyone as either binary for it or against it.

Easy now lads.

For 70% of people in Ireland it will make no difference as their address was unique before eircode and passed on to merchants (I also believe you don't HAVE to let PayPal pass your address on)

And why WOULDNT you want a merchant, who you've clearly decided to buy something from, have your full and accurate address?

plodder · 23-03-2016 09:53AM

ukoda wrote: »

And why WOULDNT you want a merchant, who you've clearly decided to buy something from, have your full and accurate address?

Stop pretending that privacy concerns have never been discussed before. You might not agree with them, but they exist. Not going there.. Sorry.

ukoda · 23-03-2016 10:06AM

plodder wrote: »

Stop pretending that privacy concerns have never been discussed before. You might not agree with them, but they exist. Not going there.. Sorry.

My simple point is:

In this scenario you've decided to transact with a merchant but don't want them to have your full verifiable address. Seems odd.

To bring in the privacy element: if you trust them enough to buy from them, then why don't you trust them enough to have your address? If you're concerned about privacy and the information the merchant might get from PayPal if you buy from them, then don't buy from them.

Where is the increased risk to privacy resulting in eircode?

Privacy concerns exist. Yes that's a fact. But taking pre existing concerns and scenarios and attributing them to Eircode is misleading.

donspeekinglesh · 23-03-2016 10:19AM

ukoda wrote: »

And why WOULDNT you want a merchant, who you've clearly decided to buy something from, have your full and accurate address?

you might be buying an electronic item/donating money etc.

ukoda · 23-03-2016 10:21AM

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

you might be buying an electronic item/donating money etc.

And if you trust that organisation enough to hand your money over to, what's the issue with them having your billing address to go with it?

plodder · 23-03-2016 10:24AM

ukoda wrote: »

My simple point is:

In this scenario you've decided to transact with a merchant but don't want them to have your full verifiable address. Seems odd.

Why would the merchant need to verify your address? It's the bank/credit card processor that needs to do that. The merchant doesn't receive any information they don't need. They don't even get your credit card number.

To bring in the privacy element: if you trust them enough to buy from them, then why don't you trust them enough to have your address? If you're concerned about privacy and the information the merchant might get from PayPal if you buy from them, then don't buy from them.

or paypal don't provide information to merchants that they don't always need.

Where is the increased risk to privacy resulting in eircode?

Privacy concerns exist. Yes that's a fact. But taking pre existing concerns and scenarios and attributing them to Eircode is misleading.

Nope. Not doing it

We've been around this merry go round at least half a dozen times. Anyone who is interested and isn't weary from it can just search for posts of mine with the word privacy.

ukoda · 23-03-2016 10:31AM

plodder wrote: »

The merchant doesn't receive any information they don't need. They don't even get your credit card number.

Well if that's the case then there's no issue, your concern was the merchant would get your eircode. Now you're telling me they don't get anything, so no issue here now at all.

Nope. Not doing it We've been around this merry go round at least half a dozen times. Anyone who is interested and isn't weary from it can just search for posts of mine with the word privacy.

I would be ever so delighted if we didn't go around the merry go round again on privacy. As you well know, I'm usually the one saying "let's not rehash old arguments. So it seems we are now agreed on both points. Happy days.

donspeekinglesh · 23-03-2016 10:46AM

ukoda wrote: »

And if you trust that organisation enough to hand your money over to, what's the issue with them having your billing address to go with it?

I generally don't have an issue with it, but it's not necessarily something the merchant needs.

plodder · 23-03-2016 11:45AM

ukoda wrote: »

Well if that's the case then there's no issue, your concern was the merchant would get your eircode. Now you're telling me they don't get anything, so no issue here now at all.

They normally don't get information they don't need, but presumably they will get the Eircode as part of the address.

BailMeOut · 23-03-2016 11:48AM

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

I generally don't have an issue with it, but it's not necessarily something the merchant needs.

If I was a merchant I would most definitely require anyone placing an order to use an Eircode. I really do not think that anyone who lives in urban areas really appreciated how difficult it is to have anything delivered in rural Ireland and there is now hope that Eircode will solve this.

RainyDay · 23-03-2016 01:35PM

plodder wrote: »

Why would the merchant need to verify your address? It's the bank/credit card processor that needs to do that. The merchant doesn't receive any information they don't need. They don't even get your credit card number.

If you are shipping anything of significant value, you'll want to verify that the address that you are shipping to matches the credit card address, to reduce possibilities of credit card theft/fraud.

oscarBravo · 23-03-2016 01:47PM

plodder wrote: »

...given that addresses and eircodes are easily interchangeable...

...really?

plodder · 23-03-2016 02:09PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

...really?

For the 70% of unique addresses, yes.

plodder · 23-03-2016 02:17PM

RainyDay wrote: »

If you are shipping anything of significant value, you'll want to verify that the address that you are shipping to matches the credit card address, to reduce possibilities of credit card theft/fraud.

I've never had a problem getting goods shipped to addresses other than my billing address.

moyners · 23-03-2016 02:38PM

plodder wrote: »

I've never had a problem getting goods shipped to addresses other than my billing address.

So the merchant will get the delivery address and not your billing address with the eircode anyway?

I don't see why you're worried about them having your eircode anyway if they already have your address. Unless you want your address to be ambiguous? I'm not pro-eircode, but I am a little confused by your position.

plodder · 23-03-2016 03:15PM

moyners wrote: »

So the merchant will get the delivery address and not your billing address with the eircode anyway?

I don't see why you're worried about them having your eircode anyway if they already have your address. Unless you want your address to be ambiguous? I'm not pro-eircode, but I am a little confused by your position.

My 'position' is that I don't mind giving my Eircode to paypal if they think it helps with verification and fraud prevention. But, I'd prefer that it is not included as part of the address (whether billing or delivery) that is given to merchants. If the merchant wants to insist on it, that's their prerogative obviously, but I don't see that happening tbh.

oscarBravo · 23-03-2016 03:34PM

plodder wrote: »

For the 70% of unique addresses, yes.

It must be nice to be able to just blithely ignore any counterexamples when making a point.

"Given that 'person' and 'man' are easily interchangeable..."

"...for the 50% of people who aren't women."

moyners · 23-03-2016 04:03PM

plodder wrote: »

My 'position' is that I don't mind giving my Eircode to paypal if they think it helps with verification and fraud prevention. But, I'd prefer that it is not included as part of the address (whether billing or delivery) that is given to merchants. If the merchant wants to insist on it, that's their prerogative obviously, but I don't see that happening tbh.

But why would you prefer it's not included as part of your address? That's what I don't get. i can see why you might not want to give an address in the first place, I'm very careful about who I give my address to, but if I am giving my address then it doesn't matter if my eircode is part of it or not. The only reason I can see for not wanting the eircode included when they already have my address is to be deliberately vague if you have a non-unique address. Or is there something I'm missing privacy concerns-wise?

RainyDay · 23-03-2016 04:08PM

plodder wrote: »

I've never had a problem getting goods shipped to addresses other than my billing address.

After you've given them your billing address, and they have validated it as being the card billing address, right?

plodder · 23-03-2016 04:53PM

moyners wrote: »

But why would you prefer it's not included as part of your address? That's what I don't get. i can see why you might not want to give an address in the first place, I'm very careful about who I give my address to, but if I am giving my address then it doesn't matter if my eircode is part of it or not. The only reason I can see for not wanting the eircode included when they already have my address is to be deliberately vague if you have a non-unique address. Or is there something I'm missing privacy concerns-wise?

One concern I have is that postcodes are generally anonymous and not subject to data protection. A foreign website might not be aware that Irish postcodes can be personally identifying and might be sharing information with other people about your purchases, thinking the information is anonymised. So, your eircode turns up on some list of areas where people bought product X from vendor Y and product W from vendor Z. Except it's not an area in our case. It's a household, and you might have expected that information to not be released.

The general concern (as expressed by the previous data protection commissioner) is that eircodes are very convenient unique tokens for use as database keys, a bit like PPS numbers. But everyone is cautious about giving out PPS numbers. Imagine the outcry if someone like Paypal asked for it, and said they'll give it to everyone you buy something off.

Oscar Bravo wrote:

It must be nice to be able to just blithely ignore any counterexamples when making a point.

"Given that 'person' and 'man' are easily interchangeable..."

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Rainy Day wrote:

After you've given them your billing address, and they have validated it as being the card billing address, right?

paypal does that, not the merchant afaik. All the merchant needs is yea or nay from paypal, that the payment was okay... no?

Eircode - its implemetation (merged)

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