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Eircode - its implemetation (merged)

beveragelady

I called An Post today to try to sort out a problem with deliveries. The customer service chap was very helpful and I think it all got sorted.
The thing is, I tried to give him my Eircode because I live at a vague rural address but he said that they're not using them because the system isn't set up.
Amazed!
It's bad enough that they're no good to users of satnavs or google maps, but this is just astonishing. Can anybody explain how this could have been launched to such fanfare when it's all but meaningless?

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moyners

plodder wrote: »

One concern I have is that postcodes are generally anonymous and not subject to data protection. A foreign website might not be aware that Irish postcodes can be personally identifying and might be sharing information with other people about your purchases, thinking the information is anonymised. So, your eircode turns up on some list of areas where people bought product X from vendor Y and product W from vendor Z. Except it's not an area in our case. It's a household, and you might have expected that information to not be released.

The general concern (as expressed by the previous data protection commissioner) is that eircodes are very convenient unique tokens for use as database keys, a bit like PPS numbers. But everyone is cautious about giving out PPS numbers. Imagine the outcry if someone like Paypal asked for it, and said they'll give it to everyone you buy something off.

Fair enough. I think a certain amount of trust is involved that the website is fully aware of privacy issues in whatever country they're operating in, so I don't necessarily agree with your fear of the level of danger but thanks for answering my question.

marmurr1916

plodder wrote: »

One concern I have is that postcodes are generally anonymous and not subject to data protection. A foreign website might not be aware that Irish postcodes can be personally identifying and might be sharing information with other people about your purchases, thinking the information is anonymised. So, your eircode turns up on some list of areas where people bought product X from vendor Y and product W from vendor Z. Except it's not an area in our case. It's a household, and you might have expected that information to not be released.

The general concern (as expressed by the previous data protection commissioner) is that eircodes are very convenient unique tokens for use as database keys, a bit like PPS numbers. But everyone is cautious about giving out PPS numbers. Imagine the outcry if someone like Paypal asked for it, and said they'll give it to everyone you buy something off.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

paypal does that, not the merchant afaik. All the merchant needs is yea or nay from paypal, that the payment was okay... no?

So you don't have a problem with giving someone your postal address when you buy something using PayPal as a payment method but you do have a problem giving them your Eircode?

marmurr1916

plodder wrote: »

They normally don't get information they don't need, but presumably they will get the Eircode as part of the address.

plodder wrote: »

My 'position' is that I don't mind giving my Eircode to paypal if they think it helps with verification and fraud prevention. But, I'd prefer that it is not included as part of the address (whether billing or delivery) that is given to merchants. If the merchant wants to insist on it, that's their prerogative obviously, but I don't see that happening tbh.

And they'll also get the rest of the address. So if they wanted to do something dodgy with your address details they could do so with or without the Eircode.

BTW, I sell on ebay and through my own website. Everyone who buys from me on ebay uses PayPal (it's the only form of payment I accept on ebay) and I get their full delivery address, including postcodes or Eircodes as appropriate. People who buy from my website can use a debit card or credit card for payment (payments processed by Stripe) or they can use PayPal.

Whichever method they choose, I get their full delivery and billing address(es), since they're required to enter both in the website before choosing a payment method.

If an Irish customer doesn't include an Eircode in the postcode field, I can either look it up or I can contact them and ask them to send it to me, explaining that I prefer to put an Eircode on non-unique addresses in Ireland (mainly addresses in rural townlands) to help ensure delivery. Nobody's refused so far. If they did refuse, I'd include their mobile or landline number (at least one is required when ordering) on the address label.

I used to always include customers' mobile or landline numbers on address labels when sending orders to non-unique addresses in Ireland before Eircodes were introduced. Otherwise, I risked the customer not being found and their orders being returned, then having to rearrange delivery at my own expense. I'm not prepared to risk that given the cost of sending orders from the UK to Ireland. If customers don't like having their phone numbers on address labels, they can give me their Eircodes instead.

plodder

marmurr1916 wrote: »

And they'll also get the rest of the address. So if they wanted to do something dodgy with your address details they could do so with or without the Eircode.

It's not about the merchant doing something dodgy with it. I attempted to explain above one concern. If you don't agree with it - fair enough.

BTW, I sell on ebay and through my own website. Everyone who buys from me on ebay uses PayPal (it's the only form of payment I accept on ebay) and I get their full delivery address, including postcodes or Eircodes as appropriate. People who buy from my website can use a debit card or credit card for payment (payments processed by Stripe) or they can use PayPal.

Whichever method they choose, I get their full delivery and billing address(es), since they're required to enter both in the website before choosing a payment method.

If an Irish customer doesn't include an Eircode in the postcode field, I can either look it up or I can contact them and ask them to send it to me, explaining that I prefer to put an Eircode on non-unique addresses in Ireland (mainly addresses in rural townlands) to help ensure delivery. Nobody's refused so far. If they did refuse, I'd include their mobile or landline number (at least one is required when ordering) on the address label.

I used to always include customers' mobile or landline numbers on address labels when sending orders to non-unique addresses in Ireland before Eircodes were introduced. Otherwise, I risked the customer not being found and their orders being returned, then having to rearrange delivery at my own expense. I'm not prepared to risk that given the cost of sending orders from the UK to Ireland. If customers don't like having their phone numbers on address labels, they can give me their Eircodes instead.

That's fair enough. As I said above, it's your choice whether to insist on it or not and I think it's pragmatic to ask for a phone number if they don't provide an eircode.

marmurr1916

plodder wrote: »

It's not about the merchant doing something dodgy with it. I attempted to explain above one concern. If you don't agree with it - fair enough.

I don't understand that concern. Most Irish addresses are unique even without Eircodes. So I don't get your concern about Eircodes being unique. There's already been a significant amount of statistical analysis done using aggregated Irish addresses prior to Eircodes.

plodder wrote: »

That's fair enough. As I said above, it's your choice whether to insist on it or not and I think it's pragmatic to ask for a phone number if they don't provide an eircode.

Apart from that, my first point is that as a merchant I get delivery and billing address information, my second point is that since Eircodes were introduced I no longer feel the need to put people's phone numbers on address labels which I've never been fully comfortable doing - not everyone wants their local postman to know their mobile number for some reason... :P

threeiron

Vanity Eircodes

Where would you have given D01 1916 to if you were assigning the codes?

Van.Bosch

threeiron wrote: »

Vanity Eircodes

Where would you have given D01 1916 to if you were assigning the codes?

GPO?

BoatMad

Van.Bosch wrote: »

GPO?

the current building is a far cry from the one that was there in 1916 , its about three times bigger for a start

GJG

plodder wrote: »

I have no problem with them using an Eircode for validation purposes, though given that addresses and eircodes are easily interchangeable it's questionable how much value it is. Regardless of that, I would prefer that I have control over who else receives it. You should be able to opt in or out of providing Eircodes to merchants. It is of little use to them, yet will clearly be provided as a side effect of this security measure. This is exactly the kind of issue that should be discussed calmly - not in the childish, sneering way you are coming across, depicting everyone as either binary for it or against it.

ukoda wrote: »

Easy now lads.

For 70% of people in Ireland it will make no difference as their address was unique before eircode and passed on to merchants (I also believe you don't HAVE to let PayPal pass your address on)

And why WOULDNT you want a merchant, who you've clearly decided to buy something from, have your full and accurate address?

This very gombeen-sounding concept of wanting to give out your full address but not your, y'know, full full address, for some unspecified reason is a strange argument against Eircode.

If the need to give an imprecise address springs from a supposed privacy concern, then where is the concern for the 60 - 70 per cent of addresses in the Republic that were already unique, prior to Eircode? Where is the concern in the North (or the whole UK) where the postcode + house number gives a unique identifier to every address in the country, and has done for decades?

And if the problem hasn't arisen in those decades, when will it?

ozmo

GJG wrote: »

This very gombeen-sounding concept of wanting to give out your full address but not your, y'know, full full address, for some unspecified reason is a strange argument against Eircode.

With paypal You don't always get the option to not give out your address - its up to the merchant they way they implement paypal.

games, ebooks, music, digital licences, concert tickets, website fees and shop vouchers etc. - they don't need a physical address as they are emailed why should I offer it up to them for no reason?

ukoda

ozmo wrote: »

With paypal You don't always get the option to not give out your address - its up to the merchant they way they implement paypal.

games, ebooks, music, digital licences, concert tickets, website fees and shop vouchers etc. - they don't need a physical address as they are emailed why should I offer it up to them for no reason?

Isn't that a separate issue that has nothing to do with postcodes/eircode? you take issue with PayPal providing / requiring your address for those types of purchases, they do this regardless of eircode, I'm not seeing the relevance, its not like they suddenly started doing this when eircode was introduced, or its not like they only do it for addresses with eircodes, again people taking pre-existing "issues" and attributing them to eircode.

plodder

GJG wrote: »

This very gombeen-sounding concept of wanting to give out your full address but not your, y'know, full full address, for some unspecified reason is a strange argument against Eircode.

If the need to give an imprecise address springs from a supposed privacy concern, then where is the concern for the 60 - 70 per cent of addresses in the Republic that were already unique, prior to Eircode? Where is the concern in the North (or the whole UK) where the postcode + house number gives a unique identifier to every address in the country, and has done for decades?

And if the problem hasn't arisen in those decades, when will it?

UK Postcodes are not personal information. Eircodes are, so the situations are not comparable. Also addresses are not the same thing as postcodes. Postcodes are normally assumed to be anonymous and might not be handled with the same level of care as addresses, which can be assumed to be unique and personal.

It's perfectly okay for you to think that this isn't a problem, and maybe it won't be. This is the internet. We don't have to agree anyhow. But, at least try to understand the point and save me the bother of having to repeat it every few weeks.

Soooooo... any news about Google maps or Satnav support?

GJG

ozmo wrote: »

With paypal You don't always get the option to not give out your address - its up to the merchant they way they implement paypal.

games, ebooks, music, digital licences, concert tickets, website fees and shop vouchers etc. - they don't need a physical address as they are emailed why should I offer it up to them for no reason?

I have operated a PayPal merchant account. The merchant gets the buyer's address if there is a product to be delivered, if there isn't, they don't. How else could it work?

plodder wrote: »

UK Postcodes are not personal information. Eircodes are, so the situations are not comparable. Also addresses are not the same thing as postcodes. Postcodes are normally assumed to be anonymous and might not be handled with the same level of care as addresses, which can be assumed to be unique and personal.

I think you are drawing a distinction where there is no difference. The difference between a database using one field rather than two as a primary key is trivial. Thousands of companies in the UK use postcode + street number as a unique identifier for households. There is zero difference between the implications of having someone's postcode + street number in the UK and having their Eircode in Ireland.

plodder wrote: »

It's perfectly okay for you to think that this isn't a problem, and maybe it won't be. This is the internet. We don't have to agree anyhow. But, at least try to understand the point and save me the bother of having to repeat it every few weeks.

I get that you think it's a problem, no need to repeat. If you could get around to specifying what exactly the problem is, and why it hasn't happened other developed countries that have unique addressing systems, like the UK or, y'know, all of them, that would enlighten us.

plodder

GJG wrote: »

I think you are drawing a distinction where there is no difference. The difference between a database using one field rather than two as a primary key is trivial. Thousands of companies in the UK use postcode + street number as a unique identifier for households.

But, they would be very careful to not release those two pieces of information together because they know that they uniquely identify a household.

There is zero difference between the implications of having someone's postcode + street number in the UK and having their Eircode in Ireland.

So long as you understand that an Eircode uniquely identifies households then there is no difference, but if you don't then there could be. Companies outside of Ireland might treat all postcodes the same - ie as anonymous tokens.

This was the key sentence in my post.

Postcodes are normally assumed to be anonymous and might not be handled with the same level of care as addresses, which can be assumed to be unique and personal.

and by the way, there seems to be some dispute about whether paypal provides addresses to all merchants whether they need it or not. You said they don't, but other posters seem to be saying that they do. I'd like to know if paypal will be giving my eircode to all merchants whether they need it or not.

marmurr1916

ozmo wrote: »

With paypal You don't always get the option to not give out your address - its up to the merchant they way they implement paypal.

Unless I was selling only digital products, I wouldn't bother my hole configuring my website to not require postal addresses for some products and require postal addresses for other products - too much hassle and expense.

ozmo wrote: »

games, ebooks, music, digital licences, concert tickets, website fees and shop vouchers etc. - they don't need a physical address as they are emailed why should I offer it up to them for no reason?

Some are downloadable/digital, some are posted. Of course if you're so paranoid about buying stuff online that you're only willing to buy products that don't require delivery maybe you're better off not using the web at all for any reason?

marmurr1916

plodder wrote: »

But, they would be very careful to not release those two pieces of information together because they know that they uniquely identify a household.

How do you know what level of care is taken by people and organisations who hold that type of information about people in the UK?

plodder wrote: »

So long as you understand that an Eircode uniquely identifies households then there is no difference, but if you don't then there could be. Companies outside of Ireland might treat all postcodes the same - ie as anonymous tokens.

This was the key sentence in my post.

Postcodes are normally assumed to be anonymous and might not be handled with the same level of care as addresses, which can be assumed to be unique and personal.

Proof for this assertion? If they're told it's a unique identifier (similar to the account numbers, customer id numbers etc, etc that they already deal with every day) why should they take less care with it (or more care with it) than other unique identifiers? For EU data-holders, it's not optional to do this - it's a requirement of EU data protection law.

The main issue is that huge amounts of data relating to people and organisations within the EU is handled outside of the EU and that it may not be handled within the parameters set by EU data protection law, one of the reasons that the ECJ ruled that the EU/USA Safe Harbour deal was invalid.

If they knew the shenanigans that happens with data processed in India and other countries, the ECJ would probably ban all non-EU processing of EU citizens' data.

I genuinely don't think that people and organisations that are careful to comply with EU data protection law will handle Eircodes more carelessly than they do other unique identifiers. By the same token, I genuinely don't think that people who don't comply with EU data protection law are going to be careful with Eircodes. The law-abiding operations will continue to obey the law; the sloppy chancers and the data thieves will continue to partially implement or completely flout the law - Eircodes won't change that one whit one way or the other.

plodder wrote: »

and by the way, there seems to be some dispute about whether paypal provides addresses to all merchants whether they need it or not. You said they don't, but other posters seem to be saying that they do. I'd like to know if paypal will be giving my eircode to all merchants whether they need it or not.

If you pay me using PayPal, I'll be getting your full address, including Eircode.

Beware, I'll know where you live....:D :eek: :P

Almost every merchant will be getting your Eircode if you use PayPal.

Mainly because very few sell only products that don't require delivery. Most sell a mixture of product types, some that require delivery, some that don't.

I'm not going to go to the trouble or expense of configuring my website so that different types of products will have different customer details forms.

Maybe some websites will but my guess is that it will be quite a small percentage of the total.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

But, they would be very careful to not release those two pieces of information together because they know that they uniquely identify a household.

So long as you understand that an Eircode uniquely identifies households then there is no difference, but if you don't then there could be. Companies outside of Ireland might treat all postcodes the same - ie as anonymous tokens.

This was the key sentence in my post.

Postcodes are normally assumed to be anonymous and might not be handled with the same level of care as addresses, which can be assumed to be unique and personal.

and by the way, there seems to be some dispute about whether paypal provides addresses to all merchants whether they need it or not. You said they don't, but other posters seem to be saying that they do. I'd like to know if paypal will be giving my eircode to all merchants whether they need it or not.

Let's play out your doomsday scenario of "I'm a merchant who bought a list of postcodes and I think this particular postcode is like the UK one and I know Mary at this postcode bought a laptop so I want to do a mail shot to all Mary's neighbours because I think they are laptop purchasing folk"

Ok so Mary's postcode is ABC123, hmm now that means nothing to me, I better look it up....off I go to the Irish postcode website to have a look, oh no! This is a unique identifier to one house! But WAIT! I can just get the list of all neighbouring postcodes, on no! They aren't sequential so I in fact can't just fire out letters to her neighbours, damn it, BUT WAIT I can licence this ECAD thing and then get all the addresses in a certain radius of Mary's house, look at me go, oh dear, has Mary given consent for me to have her address now that I know the postcode = one address. I'm a reputable marketeer so I will check with the merchant before I do anything.

Or if I'm a bit dodgy: screw it I'm going to send my laptop brochure to all her neighbours.

End result:
Best case scenario, nothing happens at all
Worst case scenario, someone gets a laptop brochure

Oh the humanity! I've been violated

That's the problem with these fear inducing statements of "SOMETHING COULD HAPPEN" people get caught up in it and need to take moment to get back to the reality of not everyone is out to violate your privacy. Some are, and they will do it with or without eircode. Such is life.

[Deleted User]

or you just (if you have a large network of staff) send someone to the address location with a wad of leaflets and hand deliver them to all the neighbours.
It won't matter if it's a UK style postcode or a unique eircode(or no postcode at all), the neighbourhood gets the leaflets.

plodder

marmurr1916 wrote: »

How do you know what level of care is taken by people and organisations who hold that type of information about people in the UK?

Anyone who takes data protection law seriously will take care.

Postcodes are normally assumed to be anonymous and might not be handled with the same level of care as addresses, which can be assumed to be unique and personal.

Proof for this assertion?

because every postcode in the world apart from Eircode is anonymous.

GJG

I think you are drawing a distinction where there is no difference. The difference between a database using one field rather than two as a primary key is trivial. Thousands of companies in the UK use postcode + street number as a unique identifier for households.

plodder wrote: »

But, they would be very careful to not release those two pieces of information together because they know that they uniquely identify a household.

Every call a UK customer makes to a call centre starts with giving their postcode, then their house number. The operator then has their exact address. This is identical to what Eircode offers. You still haven't managed to say what 'problem' this causes, but if it exists, then it has existed in the UK for decades.

plodder wrote: »

So long as you understand that an Eircode uniquely identifies households then there is no difference, but if you don't then there could be. Companies outside of Ireland might treat all postcodes the same - ie as anonymous tokens.

Companies outside Ireland might mistakenly do lots of things. How is that an argument against Eircode?

plodder wrote: »

This was the key sentence in my post.

Postcodes are normally assumed to be anonymous and might not be handled with the same level of care as addresses, which can be assumed to be unique and personal.

A unique postcode was the only viable way to solve Ireland's non-unique address problem. The problems of people misusing Eircode you claim exist would be equally of any unique postcode, whatever the design. If you are arguing against solving that problem, then fine.

plodder wrote: »

and by the way, there seems to be some dispute about whether paypal provides addresses to all merchants whether they need it or not. You said they don't, but other posters seem to be saying that they do. I'd like to know if paypal will be giving my eircode to all merchants whether they need it or not.

There is no such dispute. This is the internet - people make stuff up. You log in and check for yourself, like I did.

The 'problems' that you allude to, but can't quite specify, all seem to revolve around people doing stupid things. To the extent that you are saying that Eircode won't stop stupid people from doing stupid things, then you are correct, but that is hardly a valid criticism of Eircode.

To be clear, I am fully aware that there are privacy issues with Eircode, and they need to be managed. The DPC should have been all over this, but the Bertie 'friend' appointee simply wasn't up to the job, and lobbied for retaining non-unique addresses because that would not generate a workload for him. The notion that jobsworths are entitled to veto national infrastructure for personal convenience says a lot about the quality of the people involved.

threeiron

plodder wrote: »

Soooooo... any news about Google maps or Satnav support?

Is it An Post that is blocking an agreement with Google maps? If it is then looks like the July 13th anniversary will come and go a few times before an increase in Eircodes uptake is facilitated.

ukoda

threeiron wrote: »

Is it An Post that is blocking an agreement with Google maps? If it is then looks like the July 13th anniversary will come and go a few times before an increase in Eircodes uptake is facilitated.

Why would An Post be blocking it?

BoatMad

ozmo wrote: »

With paypal You don't always get the option to not give out your address - its up to the merchant they way they implement paypal.

games, ebooks, music, digital licences, concert tickets, website fees and shop vouchers etc. - they don't need a physical address as they are emailed why should I offer it up to them for no reason?

actually they do, as under the new VAT regulations for digital services, the vendor MUST collect the addresses of the buyers of digital products as one of the steps to verify what VAT rate to be applied

BoatMad

ukoda wrote: »

Why would An Post be blocking it?

GeoDirectory is a service jointly opened by the OSI and AN Post, the licensing arrangements for Eircode are primarily driven by the licensing costs associated with GeoDirectories, rurmor has it that the pricing initially offered to Goggle was very very high

Given An post historical antipathy to postcodes, you can do the math yourself

ukoda

BoatMad wrote: »

GeoDirectory is a service jointly opened by the OSI and AN Post, the licensing arrangements for Eircode are primarily driven by the licensing costs associated with GeoDirectories, rurmor has it that the pricing initially offered to Goggle was very very high

Given An post historical antipathy to postcodes, you can do the math yourself

But weren't they paid €9 million already for use of their geodirectory by eircode? Surely they can't be back for more money if eircode want to resell the ECAD to google? Also, Google already purchased a copy of the geodirectory at some stage as it's listed as a source for their maps content on one of the disclaimer pages I'm sure

BoatMad

ukoda wrote: »

But weren't they paid €9 million already for use of their geodirectory by eircode? Surely they can't be back for more money if eircode want to resell the ECAD to google? Also, Google already purchased a copy of the geodirectory at some stage as it's listed as a source for their maps content on one of the disclaimer pages I'm sure

The licensing costs of Ericode are fundamentally a function of the internal licensing costs with Geodirectory

Google cant affect Eircode licensing by having a geodirectory license

the rumour is that Anpost want aggressive Geodirectory licensing as it didn't want post codes as it saw these gave its courier rivals a leg up. in that regard Google maps and Eircode integration would damage its competitive position

ukoda

BoatMad wrote: »

The licensing costs of Ericode are fundamentally a function of the internal licensing costs with Geodirectory

Google cant affect Eircode licensing by having a geodirectory license

the rumour is that Anpost want aggressive Geodirectory licensing as it didn't want post codes as it saw these gave its courier rivals a leg up. in that regard Google maps and Eircode integration would damage its competitive position

What I was getting at was: if they were willing to pay the geodirectory licence would Google not be willing to pay the eircode licence, but it seems you are implying it's being priced to be unattractive?

Do you think it will get sorted in the short term?

BoatMad

ukoda wrote: »

What I was getting at was: if they were willing to pay the geodirectory licence would Google not be willing to pay the eircode licence, but it seems you are implying it's being priced to be unattractive?

Do you think it will get sorted in the short term?

yes I believe that the pricing for large users was unattractive , which is why I believe the minister got involved.

I believe it is sorted now and its a function of Googled priority plans

marmurr1916

plodder wrote: »

Anyone who takes data protection law seriously will take care.

Yes, I made that same point.

plodder wrote: »

because every postcode in the world apart from Eircode is anonymous.

That's not proof. You've asserted that Eircodes will be handled with less care than they require - the onus is on you to prove this assertion.

BoatMad

because every postcode in the world apart from Eircode is anonymous.

I see UK post codes along with a publicly purchasable database with identifies every house is " anonymous "

the fact is the reverse of your statement is true, most postcodes , often with commercially available extensions are unique