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Census 2016 - Time to tick NO

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    #332
    Cherry Blossom
    Registered Users Posts: 6,942 ✭✭✭Cherry Blossom


    Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »
    It was actually hilarious during the last census. The atheists ran a big campaign about ticking no. Every second poster on boards had a signature encouraging people to tick no. In the end when the census revealed Ireland was an overwhelmingly Catholic country the atheist tried to pretend it was all because mother's filled out the forms for their children. Lol.

    I missed the no religion option two censuses ago because of how it was placed on the form. All people want is the right to educate their kids without having religion rammed down their throats, the right to be sick in hospital without some priest up your face trying to persuade you to come to the hospital chapel as happened to me. In my own case, the right to be burried in a grave yard not associated with a particular church. Such a thing does not exist at all in Donegal. It was a bloody nightmare when my dad died four and a half years ago trying to decide what to do as my mother was vehemently against cremation. There are loads of services in the country for the religious that are in line with their beliefs that we don't have. All people are trying to do is to encourage those who don't practice a religion to convey that on the census form, people of a certain set of beliefs who tend to buckle under peer pressure or are misinformed as to the option they 'must' pick.


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    #333
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    adrenalinjunkie wrote: »
    I missed the no religion option two censuses ago because of how it was placed on the form. All people want is the right to educate their kids without having religion rammed down their throats, the right to be sick in hospital without some priest up your face trying to persuade you to come to the hospital chapel as happened to me. In my own case, the right to be burried in a grave yard not associated with a particular church. Such a thing does not exist at all in Donegal. It was a bloody nightmare when my dad died four and a half years ago trying to decide what to do as my mother was vehemently against cremation. There are loads of services in the country for the religious that are in line with their beliefs that we don't have. All people are trying to do is to encourage those who don't practice a religion to convey that on the census form, people of a certain set of beliefs who tend to buckle under peer pressure or are misinformed as to the option they 'must' pick.

    If an atheist ticks the catholic box because they don't see a non religion box it would raise the question as to what kind of atheist they are. Religion is shoved down no one's throats. You are living in the past.


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    #334
    wokingvoter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 828 ✭✭✭wokingvoter


    adrenalinjunkie wrote: »
    I missed the no religion option two censuses ago because of how it was placed on the form. All people want is the right to educate their kids without having religion rammed down their throats, the right to be sick in hospital without some priest up your face trying to persuade you to come to the hospital chapel as happened to me. In my own case, the right to be burried in a grave yard not associated with a particular church. Such a thing does not exist at all in Donegal. It was a bloody nightmare when my dad died four and a half years ago trying to decide what to do as my mother was vehemently against cremation. There are loads of services in the country for the religious that are in line with their beliefs that we don't have. All people are trying to do is to encourage those who don't practice a religion to convey that on the census form, people of a certain set of beliefs who tend to buckle under peer pressure or are misinformed as to the option they 'must' pick.

    I've got the census form in front of me. All you have to do is tick 7. No religion
    Sorry about your dad. Woodland burial?


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    #335
    Cherry Blossom
    Registered Users Posts: 6,942 ✭✭✭Cherry Blossom


    I read down the list of religions until I came to the space that said 'other' and wrote none.

    My dad is buried in a graveyard that is supposedly multi-dominational but is attached to a COI church. He could not be buried there without the graveside service, the actual funeral consisted of gathering in a community hall where 8 or so family members, friends and work colleagues talked about his life and their personal memories.


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    #336
    12Phase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,040 ✭✭✭12Phase


    robp wrote: »
    If an atheist ticks the catholic box because they don't see a non religion box it would raise the question as to what kind of atheist they are. Religion is shoved down no one's throats. You are living in the past.

    My mum was in hospital just a few weeks ago and had some creepy old lady coming around offering her communion despite being told not to.

    Still happens.


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    #337
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    12Phase wrote: »
    My mum was in hospital just a few weeks ago and had some creepy old lady coming around offering her communion despite being told not to.

    Still happens.

    Being offered a religious service is a million miles away having it forced upon ones self. Freedom of religion isn't freedom from religion or exposure to any other idea one dislikes.


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    #338
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    robp wrote: »
    If an atheist ticks the catholic box because they don't see a non religion box it would raise the question as to what kind of atheist they are. Religion is shoved down no one's throats. You are living in the past.

    I think some people were genuinely confused by the question. It nearly caused world war three in my house because my baptised husband insisted on ticking Catholic even though he hadn't been to church since his teens. He thought the No Religion option was only for people who weren't baptised. I'm glad they've included that explanation about the information they want in the new form, it will hopefully stop anyone complaining about the results.


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    #339
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I think some people were genuinely confused by the question. It nearly caused world war three in my house because my baptised husband insisted on ticking Catholic even though he hadn't been to church since his teens. He thought the No Religion option was only for people who weren't baptised. I'm glad they've included that explanation about the information they want in the new form, it will hopefully stop anyone complaining about the results.


    I have no doubt some people were genuinely confused over the question, but I imagine even with the way the explanation is now included, it won't alter the results all that much at all (if indeed at all), because like your husband, people will still consider themselves as they were baptised and will likely tick RC out of habit more than anything else. I was in the in-laws house the night of the census and none of them are religious.

    The religion question was the least bloody confusing of the whole lot! :pac:


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    #340
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    My partner is lapsed Catholic and we usually thick no religion. However if he would think this will influence who runs local school I am not so certain he wouldn't thick catholic for himself (I would still do no religion).


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    #341
    Choochtown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,302 ✭✭✭Choochtown


    Questions 9, 14, 15, 16, 22 and 24 are all Yes/ No questions. If you tick the Yes box you are instructed to proceed to a follow-up question.

    eg. Can you speak Irish? ... Followed by "If 'Yes' do you speak Irish..." Daily/Weekly etc.

    A sensible question as not everyone in the country speaks Irish. The other questions listed above follow the same format.

    However question 12 presumes that everyone has a religion and that is why it is very misleading in my opinion.

    Surely it would make perfect sense to ask...

    "Do you practice a religion?"
    "If 'Yes' tick one of the following boxes ...

    It's very disingenuous to suggest that question 12 is not misleading for people with eg. reading difficulties. The "No religion" option is tucked away at the end after the "other" option and the 20 white boxes to fill in the other. At first glance your choice is Roman Catholic, Church of Ireland, Islam, Presbyterian, Orthodox or other. No wonder non-practicing Catholics automatically tick the first box.


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    #342
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users Posts: 16,130 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    12Phase wrote: »
    My mum was in hospital just a few weeks ago and had some creepy old lady coming around offering her communion despite being told not to.

    Still happens.

    My wife was on a day ward last Friday and a woman came around and offered everyone (about 10-12 patients) communion. All declined. Funnily enough, there's a big sign on the door saying no visitors, patients only.


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    #343
    Choochtown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,302 ✭✭✭Choochtown


    A couple of questions ...

    1. Why is there no explanatory notes on this contentious question at the back of the form?

    2. Why is Roman Catholic listed first? (After answering that you can see the big problem with the layout)


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    #344
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Choochtown wrote: »
    Questions 9, 14, 15, 16, 22 and 24 are all Yes/ No questions. If you tick the Yes box you are instructed to proceed to a follow-up question.

    eg. Can you speak Irish? ... Followed by "If 'Yes' do you speak Irish..." Daily/Weekly etc.

    A sensible question as not everyone in the country speaks Irish. The other questions listed above follow the same format.

    However question 12 presumes that everyone has a religion and that is why it is very misleading in my opinion.

    Surely it would make perfect sense to ask...

    "Do you practice a religion?"
    "If 'Yes' tick one of the following boxes ...

    It's very disingenuous to suggest that question 12 is not misleading for people with eg. reading difficulties. The "No religion" option is tucked away at the end after the "other" option and the 20 white boxes to fill in the other. At first glance your choice is Roman Catholic, Church of Ireland, Islam, Presbyterian, Orthodox or other. No wonder non-practicing Catholics automatically tick the first box.


    How is it not disingenuous to suggest that question 12 is any more misleading for people with reading difficulties than anyone else? It's disingenuous to suggest that it is any more difficult for someone with reading difficulties to fill out the form as though that could offer a plausible explanation for why such a high percentage of the population could answer every other question on the form accurately, but the religion question?

    "Oh reading difficulties, mammy, granny <insert other relative> must have filled out the form, ohh... etc, etc", any reason, no matter how ridiculous it seems, to explain what you feel is that one single discrepancy. It must be a discrepancy sure, because in your world you don't allow for the possibility that people can actually think for themselves, and answer for themselves. They aren't so illiterate that they are incapable of reading and understanding a simple question.

    If you think people actually are generally that illiterate, then religion isn't the biggest social issue that needs to be tackled as a result of the census. It's the shocking poor standard of literacy in this country.


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    #345
    Choochtown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,302 ✭✭✭Choochtown


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    How is it disingenuous to suggest that question 12 is any more misleading for people with reading difficulties than anyone else? It's disingenuous to suggest that it is any more difficult for someone with reading difficulties to fill out the form as though that could offer a plausible explanation for why such a high percentage of the population could answer every other question on the form accurately, but the religion question?

    "Oh reading difficulties, mammy, granny <insert other relative> must have filled out the form, ohh... etc, etc", any reason, no matter how ridiculous it seems, to explain what you feel is that one single discrepancy. It must be a discrepancy sure, because in your world you don't allow for the possibility that people can actually think for themselves, and answer for themselves. They aren't so illiterate that they are incapable of reading and understanding a simple question.



    If you think people actually are generally that illiterate, then religion isn't the biggest social issue that needs to be tackled as a result of the census. It's the shocking poor standard of literacy in this country.


    Because question 12 is the only question on the form to

    1. Have a long list of options followed by an "other" option followed by 20 white boxes to declare the other before the final option.

    2. Have the 2nd most popular answer tucked away at the end.


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    #346
    nomdeboardie
    Registered Users Posts: 2,015 ✭✭✭nomdeboardie


    Absolam wrote: »
    So... you're complying with the legal obligation to fill in some of the form, but not all of it.... what exactly is the point? Not filling it in at all or not filling it in completely are the same offence, so you're not avoiding any legal compulsion at all just by filling in the bits you like.
    I think they probably only prosecute for complete refusal, which would be consistant with the small number nabbed - nothing like the number who appear in the stats as not answering individual questions.

    + This post from last time suggests only a small number of Qs are compulsory.


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    #347
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #348
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,285 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    robp wrote: »
    Being offered a religious service is a million miles away having it forced upon ones self. Freedom of religion isn't freedom from religion or exposure to any other idea one dislikes.

    Yet people are asked their religion on admission, and this stuff still happens to people who have already specified they don't want it. It happened to me.

    And yes freedom of religion means freedom from religion from those who do not wish to be subjected to it, a hospital patient is the definition of a captive audience.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #349
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Choochtown wrote: »
    Because question 12 is the only question on the form to

    1. Have a long list of options followed by an "other" option followed by 20 white boxes to declare the other before the final option.

    2. Have the 2nd most popular answer tucked away at the end.


    I'm just going to presume you're serious and actually give you the benefit of the doubt, but nothing in the above would provide a plausible explanation for the high percentage of people who filled out the census accurately on every other question, but that one single question. How could they possibly understand such an exhaustive list of options and a question so straightforward that the only people complaining about any possible confusion, appear to be those people of no religion.

    I've struggled to read the menu in McDonalds a lot more than I've struggled with that one single question, and as I mentioned above, it was actually the least contentious or confusing question on the form in my in-laws that night.


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    #350
    Choochtown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,302 ✭✭✭Choochtown


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    How do you know this? Where is that information given?

    My form says " you are obliged by law to complete and return this form"


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    #351
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,485 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Can we not trust people to be able to read the form and answer honestly?


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    #352
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Can we not trust people to be able to read the form and answer honestly?
    It certainly seems that a lot of people don't, or can't accept that if a person doesn't follow their religion to the letter that they might still consider themselves to be following that religion.


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    #353
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,285 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Can we not trust people to be able to read the form and answer honestly?

    If they they their house has two bathrooms, you can be pretty sure their house has two bathrooms.

    If they tick the box saying they're Roman Catholic, you can be pretty sure they were baptised, but anything after that is a matter of speculation.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #354
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #355
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,485 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Yet people are asked their religion on admission, and this stuff still happens to people who have already specified they don't want it. It happened to me.

    And yes freedom of religion means freedom from religion from those who do not wish to be subjected to it, a hospital patient is the definition of a captive audience.
    In fairness, the hospital is only trying to ensure they do the right thing.
    I spend one Sunday a month in a "religious" hospital as a day patient- at Mass time. There are well meaning little old ladies who bring communion to those who want it. They were told not to visit our ward as nobody did and they don't.


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    #356
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    If they they their house has two bathrooms, you can be pretty sure their house has two bathrooms.

    If they tick the box saying they're Roman Catholic, you can be pretty sure they were baptised, but anything after that is a matter of speculation.
    It's pretty arrogant to assume that a lot of them are ticking that box as some sort of reflex though. If they're baptised and they identify as Catholic, that's it. You have no right to tell them they're not.


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    #357
    nomdeboardie
    Registered Users Posts: 2,015 ✭✭✭nomdeboardie


    wokingvoter wrote: »
    Is it just the religion question that bothers you, that you find "intrusive " or do most application forms bother you?
    If so, you must find modern life pretty difficult. Applying to have your drivers license renewed will be pretty horrendous for you I would imagine, for example.
    The religion Q bothers me most.

    Other bugbears include the Irish language Q: Not so much a privacy issue, as a non-straightforward metric - what's the definition of 'ability to speak' it - it's a spectrum. Think I wrote something to that effect on the last form :pac: Same applies to religion in an even more complex way, as can be seen by aspects of the discussion here!

    Many aspects of many forms annoy me, but I do appreciate the importance of regulating permission to direct a ton of metal around on communal roads :)


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    #358
    Choochtown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,302 ✭✭✭Choochtown


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    I'm just going to presume you're serious and actually give you the benefit of the doubt, but nothing in the above would provide a plausible explanation for the high percentage of people who filled out the census accurately on every other question, but that one single question. How could they possibly understand such an exhaustive list of options and a question so straightforward that the only people complaining about any possible confusion, appear to be those people of no religion.

    I've struggled to read the menu in McDonalds a lot more than I've struggled with that one single question, and as I mentioned above, it was actually the least contentious or confusing question on the form in my in-laws that night.


    So what is your plausible explanation for "the high percentage of people who filled out the census accurately on every other question but that one single question"?


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    #359
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,285 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    RealJohn wrote: »
    It's pretty arrogant to assume that a lot of them are ticking that box as some sort of reflex though. If they're baptised and they identify as Catholic, that's it. You have no right to tell them they're not.

    Who is telling them they are not?

    However those whose identity is cultural Catholic or ex-Catholic owe it to themselves and the rest of society to reflect on this question. It has serious implications for a so-called republic which still expects everyone to have a religion (oaths, etc) and still allows religions to run state-funded services and discriminate in the delivery of state-funded services.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #360
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Choochtown wrote: »
    So what is your plausible explanation for "the high percentage of people who filled out the census accurately on every other question but that one single question"?


    I'm not the person trying to come up with any explanation as to why anyone filled out any of the questions inaccurately. The simplest explanation is that they did fill all the questions in accurately, including the question about religion. That's the reason for the percentage being as high as it is.


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    #361
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Who is telling them they are not?

    However those whose identity is cultural Catholic or ex-Catholic owe it to themselves and the rest of society to reflect on this question. It has serious implications for a so-called republic which still expects everyone to have a religion (oaths, etc) and still allows religions to run state-funded services and discriminate in the delivery of state-funded services.
    Sorry to break it to you but if they identify as 'cultural Catholic' then they're perfectly correct to tick the Catholic box.

    And, assuming they haven't replaced Catholicism with a different religion, why would an 'ex-Catholic' tick anything other than 'no religion'?


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