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Census 2016 - Time to tick NO

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    #392
    robdonn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    Absolam wrote: »
    You're perfectly entitled to report your mother for falsifying the Census if you feel that strongly about it. If you don't feel that strongly about it... I suppose it's up to you how much you want to be reported accurately in the Census. It's not like you don't have a choice.

    Not my point.


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    #393
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    robdonn wrote: »
    My mother, being the designated census filler in our home, has marked me as RC in both 2006 and 2011 despite me being openly atheist since 2004. We've argued over it but I am not going to battle the pen out of her hand, so I have been marked down incorrectly twice.

    After discussions with both my father and my sister I found that neither of them believe in a god, the former actively despising the RC, yet both are marked as RC because they think that since they were both baptised then they are Catholics.

    One household. 4 people. 1 Roman Catholic, yet 4 marked on the census.

    Obviously this is just a personal account, not all households are the same, but I would be shocked if it was unique!

    Don't assume its only one directional. You get the same problem with non religious parents too. The census is a pretty basic survey and has its limitations.


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    #394
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    robdonn wrote: »
    Not my point.

    Seriously... "My mum is mean, my dad and sister won't read the instructions, and I can't stand up for myself well enough to change my mothers mind. The government needs to change what it's doing."? Not the greatest of points....


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    #395
    robdonn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    Absolam wrote: »
    Seriously... "My mum is mean, my did won't read the instructions, and me and my sister can't stand up for ourselves. The government needs to change what it's doing."? Not the greatest of points....

    Again, not my point.


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    #396
    robdonn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    robp wrote: »
    Don't assume its only one directional. You get the same problem with non religious parents too. The census is a pretty basic survey and has its limitations.

    I made no such assumptions.


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    #397
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    robdonn wrote: »
    Again, not my point.
    And what point should we derive from the fact that your family reports four Catholics where there is one?


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    #398
    robdonn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    Absolam wrote: »
    And what point should we derive from the fact that your family reports four Catholics where there is one?

    That a household reports four Catholics when there is one.


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    #399
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    robdonn wrote: »
    That a household reports four Catholics when there is one.
    Doesn't seem to be any different to any other question which can be answered incorrectly then.


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    #400
    robdonn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    Absolam wrote: »
    Doesn't seem to be any different to any other question which can be answered incorrectly then.

    And this thread is about one particular question.


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    #401
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    robdonn wrote: »
    And this thread is about one particular question.
    A question which, in that regard, is no different to the others. So the fact that people can treat it as they treat the others isn't exactly a valuable insight...


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    #402
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,320 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Absolam wrote: »
    A question which, in that regard, is no different to the others. So the fact that people can treat it as they treat the others isn't exactly a valuable insight...

    And how much would you guess it happens to other questions on the Census compared to how much it happens to the question on Religion? Because the same thing happened to me in the last Census. I made sure my mother marked me down as No Religion. The next morning I was having breakfast, saw the Census form on the table, looked at it and realised my father had then changed mine to Roman Catholic (though hadn't done it properly, meaning I was able to change it back to No Religion).*

    Do you think that happens the same amount when it comes to how far a person travels to work? When they finished school? The main type of fuel used in their house?



    *and if you think anyone is going to report their parents over it you're dreaming. It's the principle behind it that people are discussing


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    #403
    robdonn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    Absolam wrote: »
    A question which, in that regard, is no different to the others. So the fact that people can treat it as they treat the others isn't exactly a valuable insight...

    Yet despite it's similarity to every question that can have an incorrect answer, we are discussing this particular question.


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    #404
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Penn wrote: »
    And how much would you guess it happens to other questions on the Census compared to how much it happens to the question on Religion? <...> Do you think that happens the same amount when it comes to how far a person travels to work? When they finished school? The main type of fuel used in their house?
    IS there a reason to think it doesn't happen the same amount with other questions? That people might ignore instructions about the number of rooms in their house? That they might choose a more 'appropriate' job title? Or a different salary? Perhaps they might feel they shouldn't be considered intellectually disabled, or they might think that they're more linguistically capable than they are. Or is religion the only measure you think people are opinionated about?
    Penn wrote: »
    *and if you think anyone is going to report their parents over it you're dreaming. It's the principle behind it that people are discussing
    The principle is exactly what I'm pointing out; if you're not prepared to take appropriate action to legally remedy your misrepresentation, it doesn't seem to be all that principled a stand.


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    #405
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    robdonn wrote: »
    Yet despite it's similarity to every question that can have an incorrect answer, we are discussing this particular question.
    Though not entirely out of context I'm afraid :)


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    #406
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,720 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Absolam wrote: »
    The principle is exactly what I'm pointing out; if you're not prepared to take appropriate action to legally remedy your misrepresentation, it doesn't seem to be all that principled a stand.

    The penalty is up €25,000. That's a large penalty to balance against a person's desire to be recorded non-religious (or whatever). Not everyone is an absolutist and would be so quick to hit a relative with that sort of penalty.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #407
    robdonn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    Absolam wrote: »
    Though not entirely out of context I'm afraid :)

    OK then, so this question is similar to other questions in that it can be answered incorrectly, but is it not also different for the reasons why it can be answered incorrectly?

    If someone was raised a male but is now a female, would that person still put down their gender as male? And if they did, would they be correct?

    If a son is married but the mother doesn't like the wife or thinks it won't last, does she put him down as unmarried? Or, like in the case of Penn, change their answer later without their consent?


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    #408
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,320 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Absolam wrote: »
    IS there a reason to think it doesn't happen the same amount with other questions? That people might ignore instructions about the number of rooms in their house? That they might choose a more 'appropriate' job title? Or a different salary? Perhaps they might feel they shouldn't be considered intellectually disabled, or they might think that they're more linguistically capable than they are. Or is religion the only measure you think people are opinionated about?

    When weighted against the other examples you mentioned, religion is far more likely to be the measure that people are most opinionated about.
    Absolam wrote: »
    The principle is exactly what I'm pointing out; if you're not prepared to take appropriate action to legally remedy your misrepresentation, it doesn't seem to be all that principled a stand.

    Your brother takes €20 out of your wallet. Do you call the guards?


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    #409
    robdonn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    Absolam wrote: »
    The principle is exactly what I'm pointing out; if you're not prepared to take appropriate action to legally remedy your misrepresentation, it doesn't seem to be all that principled a stand.

    I'll have to remember this when the abortion threads pick up again.


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    #410
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Delirium wrote: »
    The penalty is up €25,000. That's a large penalty to balance against a person's desire to be recorded non-religious (or whatever). Not everyone is an absolutist and would be so quick to hit a relative with that sort of penalty.
    That's true. But I think it's fair to point out that if you're going to carp about being misrepresented, it is your choice to be misrepresented. You have the opportunity to stand up for your convictions; not liking the result doesn't transfer responsibility to the government somehow.


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    #411
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    robdonn wrote: »
    OK then, so this question is similar to other questions in that it can be answered incorrectly, but is it not also different for the reasons why it can be answered incorrectly?
    If someone was raised a male but is now a female, would that person still put down their gender as male? And if they did, would they be correct?
    If a son is married but the mother doesn't like the wife or thinks it won't last, does she put him down as unmarried? Or, like in the case of Penn, change their answer later without their consent?

    Does it matter? You said the only point you were offering was that this was how the question was being answered. What's your new point? If it's answered incorrectly for one reason that's somehow more significant to a statistical document than being answered incorrectly for another?


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    #412
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    robdonn wrote: »
    I'll have to remember this when the abortion threads pick up again.
    Oh, I think you know how I'll vote if it comes to it :-)


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    #413
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Penn wrote: »
    When weighted against the other examples you mentioned, religion is far more likely to be the measure that people are most opinionated about.
    I think you might be underestimating peoples ability to be opinionated.
    Penn wrote: »
    Your brother takes €20 out of your wallet. Do you call the guards?
    If that's the only way to get my €20 back, sure, why not?


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    #414
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,320 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Absolam wrote: »
    That's true. But I think it's fair to point out that if you're going to carp about being misrepresented, it is your choice to be misrepresented. You have the opportunity to stand up for your convictions; not liking the result doesn't transfer responsibility to the government somehow.

    It's not your choice to be misrepresented. As with my own case, I was marked down as No Religion (as per my choice), but it was then changed without my knowledge. Only for I decided to double check it myself did I see it.

    Again, do you think the same thing would happen to even half the extent it does with that question, than with other questions?


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    #415
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #416
    robdonn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    Absolam wrote: »
    Does it matter? You said the only point you were offering was that this was how the question was being answered. What's your new point? If it's answered incorrectly for one reason that's somehow more significant to a statistical document than being answered incorrectly for another?

    And we have gone beyond my original point. Now we are addressing the reasons for why the question was answered incorrectly for 75% of my household which appears to be unique to the question of religion.

    You have mentioned that there is legal recourse that can be taken to correct an error in a completed census form, but should we make no efforts to reduce the incorrect answers in the first place?


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    #417
    Choochtown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭Choochtown


    Absolam wrote: »
    A question which, in that regard, is no different to the others. So the fact that people can treat it as they treat the others isn't exactly a valuable insight...

    That's just not true. It's a different and misleading layout compared to all the other questions as I've outlined in posts 341 and 345 in this thread.


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    #418
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    robdonn wrote: »
    My mother, being the designated census filler in our home, has marked me as RC in both 2006 and 2011 despite me being openly atheist since 2004. We've argued over it but I am not going to battle the pen out of her hand, so I have been marked down incorrectly twice.

    After discussions with both my father and my sister I found that neither of them believe in a god, the former actively despising the RC, yet both are marked as RC because they think that since they were both baptised then they are Catholics.

    One household. 4 people. 1 Roman Catholic, yet 4 marked on the census.

    Obviously this is just a personal account, not all households are the same, but I would be shocked if it was unique!
    change it before it leaves the house, that's what I did last time


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    #419
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Choochtown wrote: »
    That's just not true. It's a different and misleading layout compared to all the other questions as I've outlined in posts 341 and 345 in this thread.

    Do you practice religion is more confusing option because baptizing your kid to get him in the school is practicing religion. So is organizing catholic funeral. It's also completely useless data for international or historical demographic comparisons. The order could be rearranged but anything else just confuses the issue.


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    #420
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    should we not campaign to get rid of the question entirely?


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    #421
    nomdeboardie
    Registered Users Posts: 2,010 ✭✭✭nomdeboardie


    Absolam wrote: »
    Does that mean you'll feel compelled to complete the questionnaire if you think you're likely to be prosecuted for not doing it, or you'll feel compelled if you come to the understanding that you are obliged by the legislation, even if you're not likely to be prosecuted? Apocryphally, only 6 people were prosecuted for not filling in the Census in 2011, and 20 in 2006, so if the threat of prosecution is all that's compelling you, the odds seem pretty low?
    I'll feel compelled to fill out some of it to avoid being one of the few presecuted this time (presumably for refusing to fill in anything at all). In the absence of the possibility of presecution I would not feel compelled, but might give partial cooperation.

    If they should at some point decide the religion Q is compulsory I will be bracing myself to take the state to court :eek::pac:


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