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10 minute Dart frequency: Union and other issues

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    #62
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Unions have pulled out of talks on the new timetable!

    http://m.rte.ie/news/ireland/2016/0321/776436-irish-rail-dart/

    Was the DART frequency actually reduced during the recession, I understood sets were shortened rather than services reduced?

    From the RTE Report:-
    Indeed, it is notable that during the recession, when DART frequency was reduced, roster and timetable changes were accepted without issue, but as we seek to restore DART services in line with demand our trade unions refuse to engage with the company.


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    #63
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,669 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    GM228 wrote: »
    http://m.rte.ie/news/ireland/2016/0321/776436-irish-rail-dart/

    Was the DART frequency actually reduced during the recession, I understood sets were shortened rather than services reduced?

    Yes peak hours was definitely reduced.


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    #64
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    Darts were shortened yes but the frequency hasnt really changed at all. Apart from the odd change of a few minutes here or there the timetables been nearly the same for the last couple of years. The 15min timetable's been the same for a good long time now.
    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Unions have pulled out of talks on the new timetable!

    Why you so suprised. It was gonna happen anyways the issues from last year and further back have never been fully dealt with. The Luas strike might have strenghted the unions hand but there was gonna be a strike at some point anyways since the company or the NTA behind it is trying to push it through with no regard to the actual workability on the ground anyways.

    Basically theres 2 issues right now

    1) There isnt enough drivers including spare capacity to actually make this workable and the drivers who actually work there can tell you that its a mess.
    2) There issues over pay including issues over the forgoed pay, the 6% pay increase that was never fulfilled and of course increased pay over the increased workload and responsibilitys.

    Regardless the drivers will only strike if the company actually tries to enforce the 10min timetable on april 10th. If the company backs down for the time being there wont be any strike.


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    #65
    no.8
    Registered Users Posts: 778 ✭✭✭no.8


    bk wrote:
    The reality is that outside of the M50, the population is far too dispersed and low density to support rail services.


    Sorry but I couldn't agree less. Operating a feeder service (via bus/tram) greatly increases foot-fall by speeding up/streamlining commuting, while supporting the heavy rail service. This is done in a lot of Europe (not just the usuals), even in commuter belts in the United States (e.g. Maryland). Pop. density ranges as does frequency. It works well in places more spread out and less dense than the greater Dublin region. People want connectability, with fewer changes. If that can be done with freq. Options in built-up regions then they'll never want to look back.


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    #66
    PeadarCo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭PeadarCo


    no.8 wrote: »
    Sorry but I couldn't agree less. Operating a feeder service (via bus/tram) greatly increases foot-fall by speeding up/streamlining commuting, while supporting the heavy rail service. This is done in a lot of Europe (not just the usuals), even in commuter belts in the United States (e.g. Maryland). Pop. density ranges as does frequency. It works well in places more spread out and less dense than the greater Dublin region. People want connectability, with fewer changes. If that can be done with freq. Options in built-up regions then they'll never want to look back.

    To be fair a huge issue is the antiquated railway lines that exclude the possibility of proper high speed trains. That means proper sustained investment and new railways. While personally I prefer any potential wage increases for drivers directed into infrastructure, the core problem is Irish peoples wanting a European welfare state and associated public transport but not wanting to pay the taxes requires to support it. Overall the wage increases are a rounding number in the context of the level of investment to get a top class railway system even just between the main cities.


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    #67
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    PeadarCo wrote: »
    To be fair a huge issue is the antiquated railway lines that exclude the possibility of proper high speed trains. That means proper sustained investment and new railways. While personally I prefer any potential wage increases for drivers directed into infrastructure, the core problem is Irish peoples wanting a European welfare state and associated public transport but not wanting to pay the taxes requires to support it. Overall the wage increases are a rounding number in the context of the level of investment to get a top class railway system even just between the main cities.

    I'd agree the railways fallen behind because it never recieved the same attention as the motorways that were built everywhere. But simply rebuilding and redesigning the rail network wouldnt be enough on its own they'd need to seriously consider planned towns along key points on the line. It would help in that if they made the building of the houses affordable along with a fast rail link into Dublin/Cork it would be a successful strategy not to mention take pressure off Dublin where the housing market is drastically overstretched.


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    #68
    PeadarCo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭PeadarCo


    Infini2 wrote: »
    I'd agree the railways fallen behind because it never recieved the same attention as the motorways that were built everywhere. But simply rebuilding and redesigning the rail network wouldnt be enough on its own they'd need to seriously consider planned towns along key points on the line. It would help in that if they made the building of the houses affordable along with a fast rail link into Dublin/Cork it would be a successful strategy not to mention take pressure off Dublin where the housing market is drastically overstretched.

    I appreciate my point is off topic but I never understood why new railways weren't built along side or near the new motorways. We need both and the long relatively straight routes of motorways would seem ideal from a train perspective.


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    #69
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    PeadarCo wrote: »
    I appreciate my point is off topic but I never understood why new railways weren't built along side or near the new motorways. We need both and the long relatively straight routes of motorways would seem ideal from a train perspective.

    Id agree that thats something that could've been considered but the general problem is bar the main routes the government circles in general have let the railway rot over the years. The staff themselves did alot to keep it going as best they could. They didnt do serious investment in the railway even till near the end of the 90's when that derailment in Athentry and the subsequent report revealed sections of the railway were nearly a century old and even then its far less than whats really needed.

    The staffing levels now are an utter joke and whats left is under alot of workload. Good few places are being run heavily on overtime as well. While some may question the pay rises or think theyre greedy etc the reality is pay has gone nowhere for nearly a decade and staff levels dropped. Then theres the feeling of give management an inch and they take a mile and give nothing in return hence the legacy productivity issues that were never sorted. It just goes on and on so its no suprise its getting to the point where there is no interest in cooperating any further until things get sorted.

    The 10min service might seem a good idea but realistically theres gonna be issues. Besides the staff levels alone needed for the driving you got high levels of congestion as well. The Howth Jct to Connolly section really should be triple tracked at the minimum the problem there is it would require demolition of houses as well as rebuilding at least one of the platforms in the inbetween stations as well. As it stands now that section is gonna be absolutely hammered with all the trains they want running through it.

    Theres also the fact that if a train fails or if the level crossings fail on the south section (the trains running every 10min would mean the 5 crossings on the pearse section would be going up and down every 2 or 3min all the time) it means major knock on delays. A single train breaking down at Dun'lairoie a few months ago caused chaos throughout the network within an hour. A 10min service during the main part of the day or the major rush hours would probably be difficult to maintain in the long term as it is. The network on this plan is getting pushed so hard that all it takes is the smallest thing to break the whole lot and as far as I can see its far too ambitious with the existing resources.


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    #70
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    no.8 wrote: »
    Sorry but I couldn't agree less. Operating a feeder service (via bus/tram) greatly increases foot-fall by speeding up/streamlining commuting, while supporting the heavy rail service. This is done in a lot of Europe (not just the usuals), even in commuter belts in the United States (e.g. Maryland). Pop. density ranges as does frequency. It works well in places more spread out and less dense than the greater Dublin region. People want connectability, with fewer changes. If that can be done with freq. Options in built-up regions then they'll never want to look back.

    Feeder services are the way to go but only if the journey time of the feeder bus and train is less than the direct bus services.

    The main problem with Irish Rail is Heuston station being 2km from the city centre so at least 20 minutes has to be added to jpiurney times for the city centre, also the Wexford line having such poor journey times. northern commuter services are faster but not supported in any way by local bus services, there are no buses in Dundalk or Drogheda or other stops that serve the stations on the northern line.

    Take the journey from Carlow to Eden Quay, the bus does this journey in about 80-95minutes but the train takes a bit longer. the station is a 10 minute walk from town centre, the journey to Heuston takes 65minutes then a walk from the end of P8 or P1 can add another few minutes and the luas to Abbey street can add another 20minutes. The bus also connects well with the luas at the red cow stop.

    this is just one route, it is the same storey on most other routes with the only railway line that gives better times than the bus alternative being the Sligo line but that is only because of the mountains and lakes, but on this line there is no real capacity on this line so you could easily see trains filling up in Sligo and people standing for most of the 3 hours, I'd rather be sitting on a bus for 4 hours than standing on a crowded train for 3.


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    #71
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Feeder services are the way to go but only if the journey time of the feeder bus and train is less than the direct bus services.

    The main problem with Irish Rail is Heuston station being 2km from the city centre so at least 20 minutes has to be added to jpiurney times for the city centre, also the Wexford line having such poor journey times. northern commuter services are faster but not supported in any way by local bus services, there are no buses in Dundalk or Drogheda or other stops that serve the stations on the northern line.

    Take the journey from Carlow to Eden Quay, the bus does this journey in about 80-95minutes but the train takes a bit longer. the station is a 10 minute walk from town centre, the journey to Heuston takes 65minutes then a walk from the end of P8 or P1 can add another few minutes and the luas to Abbey street can add another 20minutes. The bus also connects well with the luas at the red cow stop.

    this is just one route, it is the same storey on most other routes with the only railway line that gives better times than the bus alternative being the Sligo line but that is only because of the mountains and lakes, but on this line there is no real capacity on this line so you could easily see trains filling up in Sligo and people standing for most of the 3 hours, I'd rather be sitting on a bus for 4 hours than standing on a crowded train for 3.


    It highlights the problem of under investment especially during the celtic tiger years when billions were poured into the road network, giving the bus a huge advantage over rail which is still running at speeds of a 100 years ago, Dublin to Limerick €20 on the bus return or €72 on the train ( if you book today to travel today) and the bus is at least 15 to 30 minutes quicker.

    We need to decide if we really want a rail network.


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    #72
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,267 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Infini2 wrote: »
    the reality is pay has gone nowhere for nearly a decade and staff levels dropped.
    Work load is also down, e.g. fewer people are needed to run a 22000 instead of a Mark 3. Many tickets are now sold by machines.

    The cost of living is down 0.4% since 2008.


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    #73
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    Victor wrote: »
    The cost of living is down 0.4% since 2008.

    The cost of living is down since 2008? Hows those stealth taxes and such eh? I doubt the cost of living is down when the taxes and everything else are way up over 2008 levels.


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    #74
    Captain Chaos
    Registered Users Posts: 11,174 ✭✭✭✭Captain Chaos


    Cost of living is now higher, more taxes, lower take home wages, bills gone up, transport fares up year on year and rents through the roof that are now higher than the peak of the boom.

    That why people are now looking for wage increases. The only thing that has gone back to way it was are oil prices at the pumps, those saving are not being passed on fully to the end user.


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    #75
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,267 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Infini2 wrote: »
    The cost of living is down since 2008? Hows those stealth taxes and such eh? I doubt the cost of living is down when the taxes and everything else are way up over 2008 levels.
    But you are forgetting that things like food, mortgages (the dominant form of housing purchase), clothing and footwear and household goods are massively cheaper. Have a look for yourself: http://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/prices/consumerpriceindex/ Bit I suppose facts are awkward to deal with when you have an agenda.

    But none of this has anything to do with DART frequency.


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    #76
    Elemonator
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭Elemonator


    They want pay rises for doing sweet **** all. I am not paying more for the same service, it is not great as it is. They are earning more than some college grads, despite the fact you only work as a train driver if you are a waster.


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    #77
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,987 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Elemonator wrote: »
    They want pay rises for doing sweet **** all.

    do they? what do you base this on?
    Elemonator wrote: »
    They are earning more than some college grads

    so what if they are earning more then some college graduates. being a college graduate does not entitle you to a speciffic wage. in fact, it entitles you to nothing. the fact that others earn more then college graduates is just tough i'm afraid.
    Elemonator wrote: »
    despite the fact you only work as a train driver if you are a waster.

    oh, lovely. nothing like a good old generalisation that has no basis in fact. i take it you have met every single train driver to come up with that one?

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #78
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,987 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Well a two minute frequency is possible


    how is it possible? what do you base that on?

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #79
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    end of the road wrote: »
    how is it possible? what do you base that on?

    Other railway systems that have a two minute frequency


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    #80
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,987 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Other railway systems that have a two minute frequency
    and which have the infrastructure to support it, unlike in ireland.
    i will try this again. please take this on board. capacity south of gcd is very limited, and once the 10 minute frequency is implemented, it is unlikely that there will be scope for extending kildare trains south of gcd. in fact, it's just not needed.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #81
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,384 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Well a two minute frequency is possible

    Well, if you have to cross the Dart line at any of the five level crossing gates from Landowne to Merrion Gates then you would realise that even the 10 minute frequency will give rise to problems. Currently the gates close two minutes before the train arrives.

    A two minute service would result in the gates never opening.


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    #82
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,552 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    I don't see why they can't run some all the way to bray stopping at landsdowne road, sydney parade, blackrock, dun laoghaire and bray or at least at peak hours
    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Maybe not bray but they could go as far as the rarely used platform 3 in dun laoghaire station which only gets one train a day ito puzzles me why one dart a day only goes as far as dun laoghaire

    The longer you make the trip the more trains you require to operate the timetable. The sets need to turn back at GCD so as to get back in time to operate the next inbound service.

    There is no need to extend beyond GCD because, as others have pointed out, there will be a DART every 10 minutes, and other diesels from the Northern and Maynooth line filling the gaps to provide a 5 minute service to principal stations.

    Any of these can be accessed from the same platform at Tara Street and Pearse so I really don't see the issue here.


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    #83
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,552 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Well a two minute frequency is possible

    The railway south of GCD is not and will not be signalled for a two minute service.

    Let's keep an element of reality here - as others have pointed out that would mean level crossing gates being semi-permanently closed to road traffic.


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    #84
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    anyway lets forget all this talk of 10 minute Dart , not going to happen this year anyway


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    #85
    Elemonator
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭Elemonator


    end of the road wrote: »
    do they? what do you base this on?



    so what if they are earning more then some college graduates. being a college graduate does not entitle you to a speciffic wage. in fact, it entitles you to nothing. the fact that others earn more then college graduates is just tough i'm afraid.



    oh, lovely. nothing like a good old generalisation that has no basis in fact. i take it you have met every single train driver to come up with that one?

    Luas drivers have very little training requirements, no years at college to get the job, no student loans to pay off yet think they should be paid a premium wage for an ordinary job. It is a massive sense of entitlement. I am all for people getting high wages to achieve a high standard of living but this simply doesn't work. Everyone is entitled to a decent wage but it must reflect the demand for it, the skill level required to do the job, education level required (many jobs require a college education now), experience etc otherwise every single service or product we buy will shoot up in price to cover higher wages. If the expenses get too high for companies to work with then jobs will be outsourced to India or other cheaper economies. That has already happened massively in the USA and here in some limited cases (Dell). This also leads to more products and services being imported from abroad instead of them being produced here by Irish workers.

    If jobs high in importance jobs yet unskilled and not requiring years of third level education get hikes in pay like Luas and now Irish Rail are getting then likewise all people in jobs which warranted years of study should likewise get huge increases. Otherwise, we'll turn into a national economy similar to Cuba where doctors, surgeons, engineers, lawyers, accountants and scientists will leave their jobs to become taxi drivers, barmen or !!!!Luas drivers!!!!! because it simply won't be worth the stress, the education required when they can get the same money for doing comparatively f*** all. And if every entitled person demands and gets a huge rise with no consequence, costs will increase on everything such as housing, cars and essentials, companies such as the much needed American FDI will stop coming here, there will be more money in the system so house prices will increase also as supply will still be the same, rents will also increase as supply will be the same, then Luas drivers will go on strike again because they cannot afford the increase in house and rental markets.

    It's a vicious circle.


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    #86
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,987 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Elemonator wrote: »
    Luas drivers have very little training requirements, no years at college to get the job, no student loans to pay off

    so what? really what has that got to do with luas drivers? nobody is forced to go on to further education, it is a choice. it is a choice i made and i'm glad i did, but if others don't and they get a good wage, that's how it is
    Elemonator wrote: »
    Everyone is entitled to a decent wage but it must reflect the demand for it, the skill level required to do the job, education level required (many jobs require a college education now), experience etc

    well considering luas drivers are paid what they are, clearly that is the wage that particular job attracts in this country for all those aspects you mention. doesn't matter whether anyone likes it or not. if it didn't attract the wage, it wuldn't be paid.
    Elemonator wrote: »
    If jobs high in importance jobs yet unskilled and not requiring years of third level education get hikes in pay like Luas and now Irish Rail are getting then likewise all people in jobs which warranted years of study should likewise get huge increases. Otherwise, we'll turn into a national economy similar to Cuba where doctors, surgeons, engineers, lawyers, accountants and scientists will leave their jobs to become taxi drivers, barmen or !!!!Luas drivers!!!!! because it simply won't be worth the stress, the education required when they can get the same money for doing comparatively f*** all.

    people will still go to further education because it's what they want to do. people won't simply become taxi drivers or barmen if it's not what they want to do. most jobs won't have a wage rise because of other wage rises.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #87
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Looking at the last two messages it would appear the "LUAS" arguement has spilled into another non-LUAS thread!


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    #88
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,963 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    BoatMad wrote: »
    anyway lets forget all this talk of 10 minute Dart , not going to happen this year anyway

    Please don't speculate. The 10-min DARTs will begin in a few months.


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    #89
    shoehorn
    Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭shoehorn


    Have train lengths been increased in lieu of the increased frequency? 0715 ex Maynooth was 8car this morning, up from previous 4car. Is this permanent? Any increases noticed on other services?


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    #90
    trellheim
    Registered Users Posts: 5,860 ✭✭✭trellheim


    n a replying letter, the NBRU's solicitors denied the company's claims that the union had coordinated any unofficial industrial action.

    They say that under the contracts of employment and previous correspondence from management, cooperation with in cab familiarization is voluntary.

    However, they reiterate that the union is prepared to return to the WRC for talks.

    In a subsequent statement, NBRU General Secretary Dermot O'Leary accused Irish Rail of reaching a new low, saying it was nothing short of appalling that a state owned organization would resort to such skulduggery.

    CHUCKLE , Takes one to know one, pot, kettle,black, etc . SEE ... this is what happens when cosy applecarts get upended lads.

    lol like drivers refusing to do cab familiarization is a sudden thing they all came up with individually.

    Summer of love ahead methinks and no government to go running to crying when the ball goes over the fence ( and yes, folks, it IS that childish)


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    #91
    Captain Chaos
    Registered Users Posts: 11,174 ✭✭✭✭Captain Chaos


    This just get s better and better. RTE are now reporting that DART drivers are refusing to take trainee drivers in their cabs with them as part of their route knowledge training to block the 10 minute timetable being introduced.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0418/782700-irish-rail-siptu-nbru/


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