10 minute Dart frequency: Union and other issues

Jamie2k9

lxflyer wrote: »

It's becoming difficult to take these sort of posts seriously.

How is a complete resignalling of a railway line along with track remodelling and electrifying not a significant investment?

If you're going to put an argument across, at least try and not make stupid statements like that.

It just demeans any argument you may make.

Sorry a full re signal will always be required at certain times, nothing new.

What a few sets of points moved to allow an hourly off peak and two hourly peak service operate - yes good but not spectacular.

Significant investment is expanding and improving service however what is/will happen the service will improve for a few Heuston commuters and some DART users yet the biggest contributors to IE (fare/passenger ratio) will see a worse service.

You need to accept the fact is what is been carried out by IE will only benefit a few and nothing but covering the cracks with the poor infrastructure in place.

spacetweek

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Yet the current 15 minute service can struggle to attract double digits at times of the day.

I must say I have never been on a Dart in my entire life that had less than 10 people on it. In any case usage would go up if service frequency increased.

Jamie2k9

spacetweek wrote: »

I must say I have never been on a Dart in my entire life that had less than 10 people on it. In any case usage would go up if service frequency increased.

Lets take people between Howth J and Bray, would usage increase dramatically if the difference between services was 5 minutes less?

Usage is little very very low even if 20-30 in the evenings, it needs to be much higher to justify such high freq at certain times of the day.

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Sorry a full re signal will always be required at certain times, nothing new.

What a few sets of points moved to allow an hourly off peak and two hourly peak service operate - yes good but not spectacular.

Significant investment is expanding and improving service however what is/will happen the service will improve for a few Heuston commuters and some DART users yet the biggest contributors to IE (fare/passenger ratio) will see a worse service.

You need to accept the fact is what is been carried out by IE will only benefit a few and nothing but covering the cracks with the poor infrastructure in place.

You must be in a parallel universe where €120m is not considered to be a significant capital investment.

All lines potentially will get an improved service from this investment.

Sam Russell

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Lets take people between Howth J and Bray, would usage increase dramatically if the difference between services was 5 minutes less?

Usage is little very very low even if 20-30 in the evenings, it needs to be much higher to justify such high freq at certain times of the day.

It takes about one hour to go from one end of the Dart line to the other (roughly speaking). Four trains per hour requires eight trains so add one for turn around. So 8 coach would need 72 coaches. Six trains per hour requires thirteen trains or 52 coaches (if you use 4 coach trains). So a saving. During peak times eight coaches would be used, but overall, there would be an improved service for much the same or less cost, except more drivers would be needed.

More frequent services leads to more passengers. Lower fares leads to more passengers. Quicker service leads to more passengers. One out of three aint bad.

Jamie2k9

lxflyer wrote: »

You must be in a parallel universe where €120m is not considered to be a significant capital investment.

All lines potentially will get an improved service from this investment.

And there were have it, potentially - come back to me when the 10 minute DART is implemented!

120 million is by in large for signalling and the new system is necessary so it's was always going to happen. Yes it will bring some benefits but does not address the fundamental issue with the railway.

Jamie2k9

Sam Russell wrote: »

It takes about one hour to go from one end of the Dart line to the other (roughly speaking). Four trains per hour requires eight trains so add one for turn around. So 8 coach would need 72 coaches. Six trains per hour requires thirteen trains or 52 coaches (if you use 4 coach trains). So a saving. During peak times eight coaches would be used, but overall, there would be an improved service for much the same or less cost, except more drivers would be needed.

More frequent services leads to more passengers. Lower fares leads to more passengers. Quicker service leads to more passengers. One out of three aint bad.

With a 10 minute service there would not be a single 8 coach operating, likely all 4 with odd 6 maybe.

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

With a 10 minute service there would not be a single 8 coach operating, likely all 4 with odd 6 maybe.

So clearly you have sat down and figured out all the possibilities in terms of set allocation or is this just another broad bar stool statement along the lines of €120m not being a significant amount of money?

Sam Russell

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

With a 10 minute service there would not be a single 8 coach operating, likely all 4 with odd 6 maybe.

Where do you get that from?

Of course there would be 8 coach sets at busy times - it does not make sense to only run 4 coach sets at busy times and reduce capacity for no reason.

Jamie2k9

Sam Russell wrote: »

Where do you get that from?

Of course there would be 8 coach sets at busy times - it does not make sense to only run 4 coach sets at busy times and reduce capacity for no reason.

Really, Irish Rail returned extra carriages to service in the last few weeks because the 10 minute timetable was not going ahead, they would of had the same number of coaches in service if it started so how on earth do you expect 8 coach services.

They are going for freq over capacity, at most you would of saw maybe one or two 6 coaches per hour nothing more.

Jamie2k9

lxflyer wrote: »

So clearly you have sat down and figured out all the possibilities in terms of set allocation or is this just another broad bar stool statement along the lines of €120m not being a significant amount of money?

If you asked a few in IE they would say the same thing about the reduced capacity for freq.

120 is a sizable amount but by in large is a necessity to the network than major investment.

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

If you asked a few in IE they would say the same thing about the reduced capacity for freq.

120 is a sizable amount but by in large is a necessity to the network than major investment.

The unions would - but I wouldn't take that as gospel as you seem to be.

In other words you've not sat down to see how many sets you could have in service yourself.

Frankly you're playing with semantics to try and push your argument forward.

Jamie2k9

lxflyer wrote: »

The unions would - but I wouldn't take that as gospel as you seem to be.

In other words you've not sat down to see how many sets you could have in service yourself.

Frankly you're playing with semantics to try and push your argument forward.

I have never heard the unions talk about it but it's quiet obvious what IE's plans are.

Come back if/when it happens and tell me how many actual 8 coach sets are in operation, it will be 0 to at a push 1, no more.

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I have never heard the unions talk about it but it's quiet obvious what IE's plans are.

Come back if/when it happens and tell me how many actual 8 coach sets are in operation, it will be 0 to at a push 1, no more.

Gladly - I'll just add it to the ever increasing list of things you've said I was wrong about very dismissively that turned out to actually happen.

Sam Russell

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I have never heard the unions talk about it but it's quiet obvious what IE's plans are.

Come back if/when it happens and tell me how many actual 8 coach sets are in operation, it will be 0 to at a push 1, no more.

They have enough rolling stock to run all Darts at 8 carriages even with a 10 min service. They can even run extra trains at peak time over the ten minute service - all 8 car. What they really need to be able to do is split trains with passengers on board as is done in the UK.

Jamie2k9

lxflyer wrote: »

Gladly - I'll just add it to the ever increasing list of things you've said I was wrong about very dismissively that turned out to actually happen.

You have around 125 coaches for service if even that, with lets say all 8 coach peak services. Take 17.00-18.00 - 112 coaches would be required for 8 coach operations in that hour alone.

I'm not that good with maths but unless something major changes with the fleet regular 8 coach operations at peak hours will stretch the fleet. You may see one or two 6 coach services with the rest operating at 4.

Will be happy to be proved wrong if 8 coaches are still operating when/if it starts, only case I see it is if there is major uptake in usage.

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

They have enough rolling stock to run all Darts at 8 carriages even with a 10 min service. They can even run extra trains at peak time over the ten minute service - all 8 car. What they really need to be able to do is split trains with passengers on board as is done in the UK.

They don't have enough for all eight car. You have to allow for maintenance as well.

I would expect the service to consist of mainly 6-car, but with several 8-car and several 4-car trains supplementing that. Several is more than one or two!

Pete_Cavan

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Only 4 tracking can fix this issue.

Would it be possible to have commuter services pass DARTs, southbound at Clongriffen and northbound at Clontarf Road? The commuter train would have to be lined up behind a DART until that station and then has a clear path in front of them. The track layouts for this should be straight forward but the signalling would no doubt be very complicated if at all possible.

Sam Russell

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Would it be possible to have commuter services pass DARTs, southbound at Clongriffen and northbound at Clontarf Road? The commuter train would have to be lined up behind a DART until that station and then has a clear path in front of them. The track layouts for this should be straight forward but the signalling would no doubt be very complicated if at all possible.

Clongriffin has four platforms but only three tracks, so add the southbound track and that could be the passing place both north and south bound.

Heisenberg1

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Would it be possible to have commuter services pass DARTs, southbound at Clongriffen and northbound at Clontarf Road? The commuter train would have to be lined up behind a DART until that station and then has a clear path in front of them. The track layouts for this should be straight forward but the signalling would no doubt be very complicated if at all possible.

You can pass Darts at Clontarf as there is reversible working there but that means holding southbounds at Killester until the northbound train clears, as for Clongriffin would that require a new crossover? If that's the case you would still be blocking trains on the other line.

Sam Russell

Heisenberg1 wrote: »

You can pass Darts at Clontarf as there is reversible working there but that means holding southbounds at Killester until the northbound train clears, as for Clongriffin would that require a new crossover? If that's the case you would still be blocking trains on the other line.

There are four platforms at Clongriffin but only three tracks. Add the fourth track and Dart stops at Clongriffin and commuter sweeps through. No need for extra anything else - could even be used for connection to the Airport.

Heisenberg1

Sam Russell wrote: »

There are four platforms at Clongriffin but only three tracks. Add the fourth track and Dart stops at Clongriffin and commuter sweeps through. No need for extra anything else - could even be used for connection to the Airport.

4 platforms? You have the Up and down which is an island platform, which make 3.

monument

Moderator note:

By request, nearly 50 posts manually moved to the Dart 10 minute thread over in the main C&T board.

Although in a batch, I had to read and click each post -- so, there's potential for me having moved posts wrongly or not moved posts wrongly, if it's your post, please just re post it on the most suited thread -- thank you!

devnull

Heisenberg1 wrote: »

4 platforms? You have the Up and down which is an island platform, which make 3.

There are two Islands.

One with platform 1 for Southbound trains on the right hand side, southbound, and the other side of the Island has a fence against the platform edge. Both sides of the Island have shelters, signage and seats and "Stay behind the yellow line" printed on them, but the ground is not prepared to take trains, neither are there tracks or or wires.

The second Island is platform 2, used for Northbound trains and platform 3 which is the loop that is only used for service trains in disruption or to take something off the up and down tracks to clear the line.

Heisenberg1

devnull wrote: »

There are two Islands.

One with platform 1 for Southbound trains on the right hand side, southbound, and the other side of the Island has a fence against the platform edge. Both sides of the Island have shelters, signage and seats and "Stay behind the yellow line" printed on them, but the ground is not prepared to take trains, neither are there tracks or or wires.

The second Island is platform 2, used for Northbound trains and platform 3 which is the loop that is only used for service trains in disruption or to take something off the up and down tracks to clear the line.

Ah I see I don't travel out that way much I was going of pictures. Fair point though.

Sam Russell

Clongriffin looks like it has been built with the Airport link in mind, just the last platform does not have the rails yet. This was done at GCD which they are now finishing so there is a turn around for commuters on platform 2. It will be finished some time soon - real soon as they have only been at it for eighteen months.

Pete_Cavan

Sam Russell wrote: »

Clongriffin has four platforms but only three tracks, so add the southbound track and that could be the passing place both north and south bound.

But passing at Clongriffin is not much use for northbound commuter/enterprise services because they will be restricted by the DART in front all the way to Clongriffin. If commuter/enterprise could pass DARTs at Clontarf Road they would then have a clear run up the coast.

Heisenberg1;99634180

You can pass Darts at Clontarf as there is reversible working there but that means holding southbounds at Killester until the northbound train clears, as for Clongriffin would that require a new crossover? If that's the case you would still be blocking trains on the other line.

I mean using the track to the left hand (northern) side of the northbound platform at Clontarf Road. With another set of points south of Clontarf Road, would it be possible for a commuter/enterprise to bypass a northbound DART sitting at the station?

loyatemu

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

But passing at Clongriffin is not much use for northbound commuter/enterprise services because they will be restricted by the DART in front all the way to Clongriffin. If commuter/enterprise could pass DARTs at Clontarf Road they would then have a clear run up the coast.

but you might as well just hold the Dart at Connolly in that case - what would be the point in allowing a Dart out ahead of a Commuter only for the Dart to be passed before it even reached the next station?

Pete_Cavan

loyatemu wrote: »

but you might as well just hold the Dart at Connolly in that case - what would be the point in allowing a Dart out ahead of a Commuter only for the Dart to be passed before it even reached the next station?

Not all commuter trains start at Connolly. With a 10 minute DART frequency, there is less time slots for commuter trains and they will be held up by the DART in front. If a commuter (which has served Pearse, Tara & Connolly) can leapfrog a Dart at Clontarf road, they should then be able to travel faster as have no restrictions until they catch up with the DART which left Clontarf Road 10 minutes earlier. If he DART which left Clontarf Road 10 minutes earlier was a Howth DART it is probably no restriction because it will likely have turned off. In theory it should mean reduced journey times for commuter trains and the possibility to squeeze in more commuter trains around DARTs, not sure how it works in practice.

Sam Russell

loyatemu wrote: »

but you might as well just hold the Dart at Connolly in that case - what would be the point in allowing a Dart out ahead of a Commuter only for the Dart to be passed before it even reached the next station?

It would be passed while it stopped at the next station. No delay. If it was on its way to Malahide, it could also be passed while it stopped at Clongriffin. Again no delay.

However, to do this properly would require very tight timing for both commuter and Dart traffic.