10 minute Dart frequency: Union and other issues

cdebru

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

In railway terms, its small money because its a tiny network relative to the size of other countries. Proportionally speaking its a huge amount.

The reason for it is of course: too many staff, with many of these in the wrong roles, overpaid staff and a lack of investment in technology

No it's not, it is 117 million, proportionally speaking it is low, a comparison with france for example on a passenger kilometre and freight ton kilometre shows you how proportionally low it is.

France passenger kilometres is 83914 million freight is 32000 million, add together is 115,914 million
times
13,200,000,000÷ 115,914,000,000= 0.113877 rounded up to 11.4 cent per km

Irish rail is 1695 million passengers kilometres and 100 million kilometre tonnes added together is 1,795 million

117,400,000÷1,795,000,000= 0.06540 rounded is 6.5 cent per kilometre

end of the road

in railway terms, it's small money because it's small money, the figure posted by cdebru (which i actually thought was around that number but didn't know for sure) definitely is a low amount.
to many staff where? what wrong rolls are they in exactly? who are these over paid staff?

Hilly Bill

Heisenberg1 wrote: »

It's not has simple as that . A Train driver is safety critical role were you need to be concentrating at all times, if a trainee is in the cab and asking questions this can distract them, if they miss something or fail to carry out a part of there duites they take the blame, they are paid an allowance for this added risk and some drivers don't think it's worth the small allowance they get for this.

But didn't they get mentored in the first place? the union have a conflict of interest here where both the old and new drivers are umion members. Whilst fighting for one lot they are going against the other. It's not just about mentoring, franks wants to close many of the halts and just leave ticket machines there instead. How these ticket machines will assist wheelchair users on and off trains is a mystery. I know a lot are not manned in the afternoons anyway but they won't be manned at all soon..

Hilly Bill

end of the road wrote: »

in railway terms, it's small money because it's small money, the figure posted by cdebru (which i actually thought was around that number but didn't know for sure) definitely is a low amount.
to many staff where? what wrong rolls are they in exactly? who are these over paid staff?

Too many overpaid management whilst front line staff are understaffed and underpaid.

Sam Russell

Hilly Bill wrote: »

It's not just about mentoring, franks wants to close many of the halts and just leave ticket machines there instead. How these ticket machines will assist wheelchair users on and off trains is a mystery. I know a lot are not manned in the afternoons anyway but they won't be manned at all soon..

They need more Revenue Protection Staff if stations are to be unmanned. It would pay for itself rapidly as I see many passengers avoiding paying one way or another. The leap card helps, but visible enforcement is the way to go.

Grandeeod

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Too many overpaid management whilst front line staff are understaffed and underpaid.

It's a two way street in fairness. Not all front line staff are "underpaid". I agree in relation to management, and IE is a bit of a basket case.

Sam Russell

I notice that the level crossing at Sydney Parade has had number plate recognition cameras installed as well as CCTV.

I assume this is in anticipation of shortening the time the gates are closed prior to the arrival of the train. I assume the cars crossing after the lights go red will be prosecuted and the word will be out that it is unwise to do it. If it is, then the gates could be left open for perhaps about a minute before the train is due, otherwise, as it is, the gates will be closed up to 50% of the time.

Or could it be to check for tax, insurance, and NCT are valid?

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

I notice that the level crossing at Sydney Parade has had number plate recognition cameras installed as well as CCTV.

I assume this is in anticipation of shortening the time the gates are closed prior to the arrival of the train. I assume the cars crossing after the lights go red will be prosecuted and the word will be out that it is unwise to do it. If it is, then the gates could be left open for perhaps about a minute before the train is due, otherwise, as it is, the gates will be closed up to 50% of the time.

Or could it be to check for tax, insurance, and NCT are valid?

There are no signalling changes planned around Sydney Parade so no there are no changes planned in the operation of the level crossing barriers. The location of the signals and the signalling sections dictate how long the barriers must come down before the train crosses.

This has more to do with the problem of cars jumping the lights and trying to get away with it. Nothing more than that.

Hilly Bill

Sam Russell wrote: »

They need more Revenue Protection Staff if stations are to be unmanned. It would pay for itself rapidly as I see many passengers avoiding paying one way or another. The leap card helps, but visible enforcement is the way to go.

Thats what they are doing,. It's more profitable for them to fine you for no ticket.

BoatMad

cdebru wrote: »

No it's not, it is 117 million, proportionally speaking it is low, a comparison with france for example on a passenger kilometre and freight ton kilometre shows you how proportionally low it is.

France passenger kilometres is 83914 million freight is 32000 million, add together is 115,914 million
times
13,200,000,000÷ 115,914,000,000= 0.113877 rounded up to 11.4 cent per km

Irish rail is 1695 million passengers kilometres and 100 million kilometre tonnes added together is 1,795 million

117,400,000÷1,795,000,000= 0.06540 rounded is 6.5 cent per kilometre

passagner and freight Kn is a very bad comparison metric. it flatters irish rails smaller network

cdebru

BoatMad wrote: »

passagner and freight Kn is a very bad comparison metric. it flatters irish rails smaller network

Why because it doesn't give the answer you want ? What "better" metric would you prefer ?

BoatMad

cdebru wrote: »

Why because it doesn't give the answer you want ? What "better" metric would you prefer ?

Theres no easy comparison, percentage of subvention to commercial revenue is probably the easiest comparison if " ones" goal is commercial evaluation

it depends on what you wish to compare

Cookie_Monster

cdebru wrote: »

Why because it doesn't give the answer you want ? What "better" metric would you prefer ?

value added to the economy would be a good one but not easily calculable.

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Personally I not so sure it will happen then, I would think December (early). Line works on Heuston side are not completed until 5 November and a new schedule won't be able to operate until then.

Then again IE may just ram it through and make a mess of the timetable as they have form for such decisions!



Come on now, not a single bit of infrastructure is taking place for a DART timetable, what is happening IE are destroying N Commuter and Belfast services instead.

Umm City Centre resignalling project????

Jamie2k9

lxflyer wrote: »

Umm City Centre resignalling project????

Anything up to 10 minutes additional on N Commuter/Belfast if not more????

The infrastructure for DART is not there N of Connoly, signalling will not fix the problem. Such a freq is not warranted either, passengers are more happy about been able to fit onto trains now...

Captain Chaos

lxflyer wrote: »

Umm City Centre resignalling project????

That's what he is getting at, it is wrecking commuter and Enterprise services as the DARTs can't run to time as it is. Part of the problem is the signaling system giving DART priority over all other services out of Connolly. The faster serves should be late go first and the late DART follow in behind but they let the DART go first and block up the fast and semi fast services.

Only 4 tracking can fix this issue.

Captain Chaos

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The infrastructure for DART is not there N of Connoly, signalling will not fix the problem. Such a freq is not warranted either, passengers are more happy about been able to fit onto trains now...

The frequency is badly needed right now and capacity. It's back to boom time traffic at peak hours with 4 cars sets doing the rounds and 20 min gaps out of Connolly.

If they put all sets back to 8 for most of the day ala pre boom times they could leave the frequency as is.

Jamie2k9

Captain Chaos wrote: »

The frequency is badly needed right now and capacity. It's back to boom time traffic at peak hours with 4 cars sets doing the rounds and 20 min gaps out of Connolly.

If they put all sets back to 8 for most of the day ala pre boom times they could leave the frequency as is.

I never really had an issue with extra peak Darts, I'm sure if it was increased from 4 to 6 it would help a lot but it's madness for such a freq outside of 7-10 and 4-7.

Part of the problem is the signaling system giving DART priority over all other services out of Connolly.

Only because the people enter the schedules that way!

Markcheese

Captain Chaos wrote:

Only 4 tracking can fix this issue.

Does it need complete 4 tracking(great as that would be) or could it be done piece meal,

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Anything up to 10 minutes additional on N Commuter/Belfast if not more????

The infrastructure for DART is not there N of Connoly, signalling will not fix the problem. Such a freq is not warranted either, passengers are more happy about been able to fit onto trains now...

The city centre re-signalling project will benefit all services that use the loop line bridge.

That was my point.

No need to be so dismissive in your posts at me - as we've seen plenty of times you've not always been right about these things.

LXFlyer

Markcheese wrote: »

Does it need complete 4 tracking(great as that would be) or could it be done piece meal,

Ideally you would want 4 tracking the whole way from Connolly to Howth Junction, but realistically a bi-directional third track for some of the route between Connolly and Howth Junction, along with a southbound loop at Clongriffin and a facility to allow DARTs clear the running lines at Malahide would make a huge difference.

Jamie2k9

lxflyer wrote: »

The city centre re-signalling project will benefit all services that use the loop line bridge.

That was my point.

No need to be so dismissive in your posts at me - as we've seen plenty of times you've not always been right about these things.

Benefit services yes I never said otherwise but everybody will not benefit with a 10 minute DART freq with or without CC Signalling!

end of the road

Markcheese wrote: »

Does it need complete 4 tracking(great as that would be) or could it be done piece meal,

it really does need it. however if it got done piece meal at least they would be getting it done. getting it done piece meal would be better then not at all in my view, all though preferribly they should just get it done in one go. more chance of me being taoiseach then it being done though!!!!!!!!!!

cgcsb

Captain Chaos wrote: »

That's what he is getting at, it is wrecking commuter and Enterprise services as the DARTs can't run to time as it is. Part of the problem is the signaling system giving DART priority over all other services out of Connolly. The faster serves should be late go first and the late DART follow in behind but they let the DART go first and block up the fast and semi fast services.

Only 4 tracking can fix this issue.

I would argue that instead of 4 tracking, a new double track should be built inland from the existing Northern line from Drogheda, through the Airport and in a new tunnel between Ballymun and liffey junction and serve an extended Heuston station, near Clancy Quay via the PPT.

This would allow for Cork-Lmrk Junct-Heuston-Airport-Belfast services, which could later be electrified and become a semi high speed service connecting most of Ireland's population and Ireland's main airport.

This would mean no need to destroy existing houses near the existing line to add more tacks and the existing northern line could be DART only and there'd be no barrier to 10 min DARTs or even 5 min DARTs. The hardest part would be redesigning Heuston to accommodate huge numbers of passengers at it's western end and providing them with efficient connection to other modes. That'd require some clever design.

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Benefit services yes I never said otherwise but everybody will not benefit with a 10 minute DART freq with or without CC Signalling!

The point I was making (which not for the first time you totally miss) is that significant investment is being made - between the infrastructural works around the PPT and the city centre resignalling.

Another poster suggested neither project would happen at all.

My point was that with that investment taking place the NTA would certainly insist on both services happening.

spacetweek

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I never really had an issue with extra peak Darts, I'm sure if it was increased from 4 to 6 it would help a lot but it's madness for such a freq outside of 7-10 and 4-7.

You're aiming very low there. A mass transit system for a city of 1M people should be at least every 10 mins all day and Sundays. Run shorter trains off peak.

Jamie2k9

spacetweek wrote: »

You're aiming very low there. A mass transit system for a city of 1M people should be at least every 10 mins all day and Sundays. Run shorter trains off peak.

Yet the current 15 minute service can struggle to attract double digits at times of the day.

The point I was making (which not for the first time you totally miss) is that significant investment is being made - between the infrastructural works around the PPT and the city centre resignalling.

Another poster suggested neither project would happen at all.

My point was that with that investment taking place the NTA would certainly insist on both services happening.

The NTA can insist but it does not mean they know whats good for commuters. Remember they also believe the net gain in capacity for a 10 minute service is very low than the existing 8 coach 15 minute service.

I would not call it significant investment, in fact papering over the cracks to deliver a service which cannot be done properly (DART).

Sam Russell

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Yet the current 15 minute service can struggle to attract double digits at times of the day.



The NTA can insist but it does not mean they know whats good for commuters. Remember they also believe the net gain in capacity for a 10 minute service is very low than the existing 8 coach 15 minute service.

I would not call it significant investment, in fact papering over the cracks to deliver a service which cannot be done properly (DART).

The 15 minute service equates to a 30 min service to Howth and Malahide, but Malahide has the advantage of commuter trains. The Howth shuttle would help, but a 10 min service is needed.

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Yet the current 15 minute service can struggle to attract double digits at times of the day.



The NTA can insist but it does not mean they know whats good for commuters. Remember they also believe the net gain in capacity for a 10 minute service is very low than the existing 8 coach 15 minute service.

I would not call it significant investment, in fact papering over the cracks to deliver a service which cannot be done properly (DART).

It's becoming difficult to take these sort of posts seriously.

How is a complete resignalling of a railway line along with track remodelling and electrifying not a significant investment?

If you're going to put an argument across, at least try and not make stupid statements like that.

It just demeans any argument you may make.

Jamie2k9

Sam Russell wrote: »

The 15 minute service equates to a 30 min service to Howth and Malahide, but Malahide has the advantage of commuter trains. The Howth shuttle would help, but a 10 min service is needed.

Yet Luas lines don't have the same level of service at times and arguably have a higher draw and yet don't carry heavy loads late at night.

Yes 10 minute service if the infrastructure is there and at the right times but after 8pm a 10 minute service is a joke and as good as pis*ing money down the drain.