10 minute Dart frequency: Union and other issues

Brendan Bendar

Dart lads gearing up for Apr. 10.

Infini

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Dart lads gearing up for Apr. 10.

Its management who are at fault there if it kicks off as they made the 1st move without agreement.

trellheim

Its management who are at fault there if it kicks off as they made the 1st move without agreement.

Evidence please

punisher5112

if these companies get away with it once never mind how small or little a deal they will keep on doing it with bigger and more changes etc.

Dart staff were not consulted the likes of Irish rail are at it long enough to know better at this stage.

Infini

punisher5112 wrote: »

if these companies get away with it once never mind how small or little a deal they will keep on doing it with bigger and more changes etc.

Dart staff were not consulted the likes of Irish rail are at it long enough to know better at this stage.

Dont believe the company on saying theres drivers, theres new ones yes but the drivers they currently got are replacing those out on long term sick leave. Theyre also not passed out. The plan also is razor thin and I talked to them myself. If someone calls in sick or a train fails theres no reserve capacity that service would be cancelled along with any services done by that set. Nearly all the trains as well will be 4 carrige trains and with passenger levels increasing do you really wanna see people crushed into trains like somewhere in the far east?

Fact is while a 10min service would be great for passengers its too ambitious given the current staff, stock and even infrastructure levels (howth jct - connoly is too narrow for the services going through).

LXFlyer

Infini2 wrote: »

Dont believe the company on saying theres drivers, theres new ones yes but the drivers they currently got are replacing those out on long term sick leave. Theyre also not passed out. The plan also is razor thin and I talked to them myself. If someone calls in sick or a train fails theres no reserve capacity that service would be cancelled along with any services done by that set. Nearly all the trains as well will be 4 carrige trains and with passenger levels increasing do you really wanna see people crushed into trains like somewhere in the far east?

Fact is while a 10min service would be great for passengers its too ambitious given the current staff, stock and even infrastructure levels (howth jct - connoly is too narrow for the services going through).

The funding from the NTA includes funding to restore more DART sets to daily service. I would respectfully suggest that your assertion that "nearly all trains will be 4 carriage trains" is in fact misleading based on that fact.

Unless you have seen the actual set links to back up the new schedule, I'm not sure how anyone can make that assertion.

oppenheimer1

Infini2 wrote: »

Dont believe the company on saying theres drivers, theres new ones yes but the drivers they currently got are replacing those out on long term sick leave. Theyre also not passed out. The plan also is razor thin and I talked to them myself. If someone calls in sick or a train fails theres no reserve capacity that service would be cancelled along with any services done by that set. Nearly all the trains as well will be 4 carrige trains and with passenger levels increasing do you really wanna see people crushed into trains like somewhere in the far east?

Fact is while a 10min service would be great for passengers its too ambitious given the current staff, stock and even infrastructure levels (howth jct - connoly is too narrow for the services going through).

I bet if they got a pay rise all those worries would disappear. Strange.

end of the road

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I bet if they got a pay rise all those worries would disappear. Strange.

no . the infrastructure will still be unable to cope with the amount of services. never mind slowing us all down. if a 10 minute dart frequency is to happen, it needs the infrastructure to back it up.

Infini

lxflyer wrote: »

The funding from the NTA includes funding to restore more DART sets to daily service. I would respectfully suggest that your assertion that "nearly all trains will be 4 carriage trains" is in fact misleading based on that fact.

Unless you have seen the actual set links to back up the new schedule, I'm not sure how anyone can make that assertion.

The existing services are mostly short trains as it is. The 10min service also is a 50% increase over the existing service. Just because theres more money available doesnt mean that stock is gonna suddenly be there. Theres more than just one problem with the whole thing and I can see it going nowhere. The plan is too ambitious with the current circumstances.

oppenheimer1

end of the road wrote: »

no . the infrastructure will still be unable to cope with the amount of services. never mind slowing us all down. if a 10 minute dart frequency is to happen, it needs the infrastructure to back it up.

No it's the exact same with the A&E nurses complaining about overcrowding. They got a few days extra annual leave and a bit more money if I recall correctly. They stopped protesting then despite the conditions remaining the same.

It's standard fare to use poor customer or service user conditions as an excuse to start an industrial dispute, when all the Union wants is better pay or entitlements for its members. Teachers, nurses, train drivers unions don't give a **** about Joe public.

LXFlyer

Infini2 wrote: »

The existing services are mostly short trains as it is. The 10min service also is a 50% increase over the existing service. Just because theres more money available doesnt mean that stock is gonna suddenly be there. Theres more than just one problem with the whole thing and I can see it going nowhere. The plan is too ambitious with the current circumstances.

With respect again, the stock is there - it's being rotated in and out of service currently but now will be pressed into service full time.

It is perfectly possible to operate the 10 minute service with a majority of sets being six and eight piece sets. There will in all likelihood still be some four car sets, but I certainly don't expect that they'll be the majority.

Again I'm going to repeat my question - have seen sight of the planned set links? Because if you haven't, making assertions such as those that you are is nothing more than guesswork on your part.

As for the infrastructure - it can certainly handle the service increase and anyone who claims to the contrary is telling porkies. The line north of Connolly which you claim can't cope has already been re-signalled.

Infini

lxflyer wrote: »

With respect again, the stock is there - it's being rotated in and out of service currently but now will be pressed into service full time.

It is perfectly possible to operate the 10 minute service with a majority of sets being six and eight piece sets. There will in all likelihood still be some four car sets, but I certainly don't expect that they'll be the majority.

Again I'm going to repeat my question - have seen sight of the planned set links? Because if you haven't, making assertions such as those that you are is nothing more than guesswork on your part.

As for the infrastructure - it can certainly handle the service increase and anyone who claims to the contrary is telling porkies. The line north of Connolly which you claim can't cope has already been re-signalled.

With respect Ive asked around and the only thing thats comeup is that proposed timetable and nothing more. Noones seen the working timetable at all. The drivers I asked about the timetable and rosters the company wants are described as an utter mess. Even so if these sets are being pressed into service why more than half of them still short trains during the rush hour? If theyre there shouldnt be any 4 carriage trains during the existing rush as it is.

LXFlyer

Infini2 wrote: »

With respect Ive asked around and the only thing thats comeup is that proposed timetable and nothing more. Noones seen the working timetable at all. The drivers I asked about the timetable and rosters the company wants are described as an utter mess. Even so if these sets are being pressed into service why more than half of them still short trains during the rush hour? If theyre there shouldnt be any 4 carriage trains during the existing rush as it is.

Well then you should not be making assertions as you did. All you're basing it on is hearsay.

The reason for the current set links is the fact that the PSO funding was cut and the company had to implement cost cutting measures.

The NTA have clearly stated that they are going to advance the necessary funding for this service to operate, including restoring sets to full daily service.

So let's wait and see exactly what that involves before making absolute statements of fact as you did above. If no one has seen set links or a working timetable then there's an awful lot of rumour going around being passed off as fact.

monument

Dart issues separated from Luas strike thread.

- moderator

Jamie2k9

Infini2 wrote: »

Its management who are at fault there if it kicks off as they made the 1st move without agreement.

Could you please give me some legally binding evidence that the 10 minute timetable is in breach of existing employer/employee agreements.

The unions will be hoping this does not go to the Lab Court as they will side with IE claims.

I don't approve of the new schedules but not because drivers don't.

Is the real issue here drivers not wanting to change existing rosters as they "like" them?

oppenheimer1

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Could you please give me some legally binding evidence that the 10 minute timetable is in breach of existing employer/employee agreements.

The unions will be hoping this does not go to the Lab Court as they will side with IE claims.

I don't approve of the new schedules but not because drivers don't.

Is the real issue here drivers not wanting to change existing rosters as they "like" them?

The real issue is that the drivers see any change in work practices as an opportunity to extract more money from the company for themselves. This is just like the dispute when they were asked to drive longer trains

Strangely enough the drivers didn't offer any of that money back when IE started using shorter sets

Infini

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Could you please give me some legally binding evidence that the 10 minute timetable is in breach of existing employer/employee agreements.

The unions will be hoping this does not go to the Lab Court as they will side with IE claims.

I don't approve of the new schedules but not because drivers don't.

Is the real issue here drivers not wanting to change existing rosters as they "like" them?

Roster changes needs to be by agreement with staff and management. It cant be changed arbritarily by either side.

Theres other issues as well like productivity and workability to make things more complicated. Its NOT simply about money believe it or not.

As for the labour court you wouldnt know for sure at this stage. Things have changed alot over the last few years.

Jamie2k9

Infini2 wrote: »

Roster changes needs to be by agreement with staff and management. It cant be changed arbritarily by either side.

Theres other issues as well like productivity and workability to make things more complicated. Its NOT simply about money believe it or not.

As for the labour court you wouldnt know for sure at this stage. Things have changed alot over the last few years.

Ok, you have a point about roster changes however drivers are not been requested to increase work hours and is there really valid grounds for objections to the new roster than not wanting change.

There are productivity however restoring is not productivity issue. As for money, admit an extra few quid would help the situation......

I really don't think the union will want to risk a Lab Court Ruling, odds are stacked towards IE on this one.

I do think it's important for IE to get it right as if they don't it won't help future disputes which we will see by end of his year if no sooner.

trellheim

Roster changes needs to be by agreement with staff and management. It cant be changed arbritarily by either side.

That particular attitude doesn't survive long in the private sector. The boss does what he needs to do.

Victor

Infini2 wrote: »

Roster changes needs to be by agreement with staff and management. It cant be changed arbritarily by either side.

When Irish Rail asked the unions a few years ago to suggest savings (so that wages wouldn't need to be cut as much), the claim was 'We're not management, we don't know how to manage, we can't save money.' But suddenly they know how to do rosters, fleet management, etc?

Theres other issues as well like productivity

Drive train from A to B for X hours. What's different?

workability

Not a staff issue. If the time table doesn't work, drivers won't be blamed (assuming they don't sabotage the timetable like Luas workers are currently).

stop

Can anyone clarify for me what the frequency of the DART was pre recession? I seem to remember when it was changed to every 15 minutes that previous to that it had been more frequent?

LXFlyer

stop wrote: »

Can anyone clarify for me what the frequency of the DART was pre recession? I seem to remember when it was changed to every 15 minutes that previous to that it had been more frequent?

It was completely haphazard - it was anything but consistent.

Infini

Victor wrote: »

When Irish Rail asked the unions a few years ago to suggest savings (so that wages wouldn't need to be cut as much), the claim was 'We're not management, we don't know how to manage, we can't save money.' But suddenly they know how to do rosters, fleet management, etc?

There was meant to be a comittee set up between the 2 sides about saving and all that and the last I heard it went nowhere. Havent heard a peep out of it since and that was a good while ago.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Ok, you have a point about roster changes however drivers are not been requested to increase work hours and is there really valid grounds for objections to the new roster than not wanting change.

There are productivity however restoring is not productivity issue. As for money, admit an extra few quid would help the situation......

The rostering that supposed to be going around is meant to have them driving around constantly with very little downtime. Its also messy and all over the place. On top of that theres rumors going about the place the last few months that theres up to 20 drivers wanting out. They dont care about the money believe it or not they feel its just not worth it they simply dont want the stress and hassle of the 10min service. In addition the new drivers they got in they had to lower the bar and get from dublin bus to boot because there simply wasnt enough people in the company applying for the driving. Some even went to the driving only to go back to their old jobs a few months later because they just couldnt take the stress anymore.

Theres alot more going on behind the scenes that many may not realise its all down to the cuts and the whole place has been run down over the last few years. Everyones tired of it.

Victor

stop wrote: »

Can anyone clarify for me what the frequency of the DART was pre recession? I seem to remember when it was changed to every 15 minutes that previous to that it had been more frequent?

Some sample timetables - 2002, 2006, 2010, 2013.

oppenheimer1

Infini2 wrote: »

The rostering that supposed to be going around is meant to have them driving around constantly with very little downtime.

So the lads will have to drive trains for their entire shift? The poor craturs, my heart bleeds.:rolleyes:

cdebru

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

So the lads will have to drive trains for their entire shift? The poor craturs, my heart bleeds.:rolleyes:

Are you chained to a desk all day or are you allowed go to the toilet, have a cigarette grab a cup of coffee, stretch your legs ? Could you injure or kill people if you made a mistake ?

LXFlyer

cdebru wrote: »

Are you chained to a desk all day or are you allowed go to the toilet, have a cigarette grab a cup of coffee, stretch your legs ? Could you injure or kill people if you made a mistake ?

Before this descends into extremes, one would assume that the required personal need breaks are included in the roster.

There are plenty of transport rosters that are easier than others for one reason or another - just because someone ends up doing more driving after a timetable review doesn't necessarily mean that it's a change in productivity. The particular roster in question could have had longer layover times at either end due to the service frequency.

An increase in service frequency can lead to drivers having shorter layovers but still be within regulations from a break perspective.

There are no doubt some DB driver rosters that are viewed as "cushier" than others for example.

But just because a particular set of rosters have been a particular way for some time and are now proposed to be changed doesn't mean that the new ones are necessarily outside overall agreed hours.

It may just be that it does mean more driving but still within agreed limits.

cdebru

lxflyer wrote: »

Before this descends into extremes, one would assume that the required personal need breaks are included in the roster.

There are plenty of transport rosters that are easier than others for one reason or another - just because someone ends up doing more driving after a timetable review doesn't necessarily mean that it's a change in productivity. The particular roster in question could have had longer layover times at either end due to the service frequency.

An increase in service frequency can lead to drivers having shorter layovers but still be within regulations from a break perspective.

There are no doubt some DB driver rosters that are viewed as "cushier" than others for example.

But just because a particular set of rosters have been a particular way for some time and are now proposed to be changed doesn't mean that the new ones are necessarily outside overall agreed hours.

It may just be that it does mean more driving but still within agreed limits.

I was replying to this post

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

So the lads will have to drive trains for their entire shift? The poor craturs, my heart bleeds.:rolleyes:

Just pointing out that it's not possible, nor desirable to have people actually driving their entire shift. I haven't seen the rosters nor do I have knowledge of what their agreed rest periods, needs breaks or layovers are. I know from experience that timetables can be written which on paper are legal in reality are simply a fiction.

LXFlyer

cdebru wrote: »

I was replying to this post


Just pointing out that it's not possible, nor desirable to have people actually driving their entire shift. I haven't seen the rosters nor do I have knowledge of what their agreed rest periods, needs breaks or layovers are. I know from experience that timetables can be written which on paper are legal in reality are simply a fiction.

I very much doubt that poster was suggesting that breaks should not be taken, but rather that they spend more time actually driving during their shift than laying over.
An element of common sense is needed here.

At the same time people can get very protective of good rosters from an employee perspective, which when looked at from an independent perspective could be improved upon from an employer's perspective while still being within legal and agreed limits. That doesn't always mean that they are entitled to extra pay.

devnull

I wonder where they got the idea to involve personal needs breaks in this?

Honestly, is that the best SIPTU can do?

cdebru

lxflyer wrote: »

I very much doubt that poster was suggesting that breaks should not be taken, but rather that they spend more time actually driving during their shift than laying over.
An element of common sense is needed here.

At the same time people can get very protective of good rosters from an employee perspective, which when looked at from an independent perspective could be improved upon from an employer's perspective while still being within legal and agreed limits. That doesn't always mean that they are entitled to extra pay.

How do you know what he meant ? I answered what he posted, have been employed as his official translator ?

Just repeating what you already posted is kind of pointless, but since we are there, timetables can be legal and allow for all kinds of breaks on paper but in reality are a work of fiction.