Boundary Extension for City?

Squidvicious · 01-03-2016 7:26pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Well quite which shows that the border as it stands is a hindrance to development. I dunno what the current status of that plot is but someone needs to take it in hand.

What I meant was that both counties wish that site could dissappear. If only the problems of that site were limited to a split jurisdiction.

robtri · 02-03-2016 7:41pm

Max Powers wrote: »

there does seem to be a majority on the no side who don't really have an argument other than gaa colours,I don't want to bad mouth all our neighbours though and the kk chat page, there seems be a decent amount of people saying, that it makes sense.

well u seem to be the one hung up on it....

7upfree · 03-03-2016 7:01pm

Squidvicious wrote: »

Not true. Without rehashing my points, I argued against the change earlier on in this thread and I'm not even a big fan of hurling having been to two matches in my life. It's not fair to characterise the No argument as being all about hurling any more than it's fair to call the Yes side mere "Land Grabbers" out to enlarge the county.

Unfortunately it is. KK folk are obsessed with that game, for whatever reason.

7upfree · 03-03-2016 7:02pm

Squidvicious wrote: »

Within the Ferrybank housing estates, I'd say you're right that it's mainly Waterford but beyond that, I'd say it'd be far more black and amber.

Easy way to sort it. Hold a plebiscite and see who wants to remain in Kilkenny. And abide by the will of the people. But then again, this being Ireland.........

Roanmore · 05-03-2016 3:41pm

7upfree wrote: »

Easy way to sort it. Hold a plebiscite and see who wants to remain in Kilkenny. And abide by the will of the people. But then again, this being Ireland.........

That's a good idea. Is there any indication / poll indicating what the people affected by it are leaning?

gobo99 · 05-03-2016 6:05pm

Roanmore wrote: »

That's a good idea. Is there any indication / poll indicating what the people affected by it are leaning?

Anyone who wanted to could have made a submission to the Waterford Boundary Committee if they were for or against the proposed move.
Over 19,000 submissions were received against the extension of the boundary.
Less than 50 submissions were made in favour of the proposed extension to the boundary.
Obviously there isn't 19,000 people in the affected area, (I think its around 7,000), but it shows that there is a huge opposition to the boundary move.
The fact that less than 50 people supporting the proposed move bothered to submit their opinion shows that there is not any real hunger either side of the bridge for it to go ahead.

O Riain · 05-03-2016 6:42pm

gobo99 wrote: »

Anyone who wanted to could have made a submission to the Waterford Boundary Committee if they were for or against the proposed move.
Over 19,000 submissions were received against the extension of the boundary.
Less than 50 submissions were made in favour of the proposed extension to the boundary.
Obviously there isn't 19,000 people in the affected area, (I think its around 7,000), but it shows that there is a huge opposition to the boundary move.
The fact that less than 50 people supporting the proposed move bothered to submit their opinion shows that there is not any real hunger either side of the bridge for it to go ahead.

In fairness, its human nature to spend more effort being negative/to oppose something then it is to spend the time to write in something positive. This is a normal situation but we will have to see how it goes, I don't understand why they went out so far with the extension to be honest. Makes it seem like they wanted it to fail due to resistance....

Dunmoreroader · 05-03-2016 7:06pm

O Riain wrote: »

In fairness, its human nature to spend more effort being negative/to oppose something then it is to spend the time to write in something positive. This is a normal situation but we will have to see how it goes, I don't understand why they went out so far with the extension to be honest. Makes it seem like they wanted it to fail due to resistance....

The GAA in Kilkenny got every club to send submissions. The schools in Kilkenny were handing out forms to kids to bring home to their parents. It's insane. Paultown gets to decide the destiny of Ferrybank?

7upfree · 05-03-2016 8:12pm

O Riain wrote: »

In fairness, its human nature to spend more effort being negative/to oppose something then it is to spend the time to write in something positive. This is a normal situation but we will have to see how it goes, I don't understand why they went out so far with the extension to be honest. Makes it seem like they wanted it to fail due to resistance....

As I said already, hold a plebiscite and put it to bed once and for all. And let people of voting age decide. Not children. Remember, you are dealing with a mentality here. And it doesn't appear to be rational.

gobo99 · 05-03-2016 8:59pm

O Riain wrote: »

In fairness, its human nature to spend more effort being negative/to oppose something then it is to spend the time to write in something positive. This is a normal situation but we will have to see how it goes, I don't understand why they went out so far with the extension to be honest. Makes it seem like they wanted it to fail due to resistance....

That might account for some of the numbers but 19,000 v 50 odd is a huge gap.
It has been suggested by some on this thread that the area is full of Waterford people who are eager to be reunited with Waterford council. Mabey they couldn't be arsed filling in a survey. Or mabey just mabey there isnt thousands of Waterfordians living in Ferrybank, Mooncoin, Slieverue and Kilmacow. Id welcome a plebiscite if it were possible, it would be a eye opener for a some people.

Max Powers · 05-03-2016 9:12pm

gobo99 wrote: »

That might account for some of the numbers but 19,000 v 50 odd is a huge gap.
It has been suggested by some on this thread that the area is full of Waterford people who are eager to be reunited with Waterford council. Mabey they couldn't be arsed filling in a survey. Or mabey just mabey there isnt thousands of Waterfordians living in Ferrybank, Mooncoin, Slieverue and Kilmacow. Id welcome a plebiscite if it were possible, it would be a eye opener for a some people.

They circulated no letters that people could just sign there name and send it off, saw them myself being circulated in the canteen to lads who don't live in the area. I would say 99% of them say the same rubbish about kk culture, hurling etc...total ****e that anyone would half a brain would roll their eyes at.

gobo99 · 05-03-2016 9:22pm

Well iv gone through around 60 or 70 of the submissions and the only people banging on about hurling and county colours are a couple of waterford people on this thread.

kayaksurfbum · 05-03-2016 9:35pm

gobo99 wrote: »

Well iv gone through around 60 or 70 of the submissions and the only people banging on about hurling and county colours are a couple of waterford people on this thread.

Can you read the submissions on line?

gobo99 · 05-03-2016 9:39pm

kayaksurfbum wrote: »

Can you read the submissions on line?

You can...
http://www.waterfordboundaryreview.ie/currentsubmissions.html

padraig.od · 05-03-2016 9:46pm

If we are going to let the people of ferrybank decided what county they are going to be in could we make Dublin an option? It would be great for house prices

road_high · 06-03-2016 5:08pm

Max Powers wrote: »

They circulated no letters that people could just sign there name and send it off, saw them myself being circulated in the canteen to lads who don't live in the area. I would say 99% of them say the same rubbish about kk culture, hurling etc...total ****e that anyone would half a brain would roll their eyes at.

Well I'd imagine straight off it would be this kind of dismissive railroading attitude that would naturally get people's backs up and why there is such strong opposition in the first place.

7upfree · 07-03-2016 9:08pm

road_high wrote: »

Well I'd imagine straight off it would be this kind of dismissive railroading attitude that would naturally get people's backs up and why there is such strong opposition in the first place.

Because it's true??!!

AdMMM · 08-03-2016 9:09am

First one that I read from Bobby Aylward, FF TD, mentions GAA clubs being split into what I can only assume he means a "The Wind that Shakes the Barley" situation. The second one I opened mentions successful GAA clubs needing to change their colours. I haven't opened any more because that's enough stupidity for one day....

7upfree · 08-03-2016 6:56pm

AdMMM wrote: »

First one that I read from Bobby Aylward, FF TD, mentions GAA clubs being split into what I can only assume he means a "The Wind that Shakes the Barley" situation. The second one I opened mentions successful GAA clubs needing to change their colours. I haven't opened any more because that's enough stupidity for one day....

Going around in circles. For a game. Such utter stupidity.

hardybuck · 09-03-2016 10:30am

7upfree wrote: »

Going around in circles. For a game. Such utter stupidity.

I think that'd be his dream response. The GAA is more than a sport, it's the focal point of the community and promoter of Irish culture.

The correct response is that the current GAA structures would continue regardless. Ferrybank GAA play in Waterford when I understand that not all of their pitch is.

Jamie2k9 · 12-03-2016 12:38am

Decision now not due until May.

Dunmoreroader · 12-03-2016 1:00pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Decision now not due until May.

Quelle surprise!
Btw amazing submission to the boundary review from Stephanie Taheny, the town planning expert, re Ferrybank shopping centre. There's a feature on it in the N&S but it's worth reading in full on the boundary review website. It will make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up.
Corrupt, greedy or just stupidly duped by the developers - take your pick for the all but one Kilkenny County Councillors who voted this thru. Shame on you. The government were happy to spend hundreds of millions enquiring into Quarryvale; shouldn't Ferrybank shopping centre be investigated too?
I know there is a seperately thread dealing with this but it needs to be repeated over and over how rotten this decision was and how it shows that KCC shouldn't govern Ferrybank.

Dunmoreroader · 14-03-2016 4:48pm

Here's what I'm talking about;
http://www.waterfordboundaryreview.ie/submissions/online/Stephanie%20Taheny.pdf

Max Powers · 15-03-2016 9:37am

Excellent submission, probably better than the 19000 gaa crap sent in against the plan

Deise Vu · 15-03-2016 11:03am

Dunmoreroader wrote: »

Here's what I'm talking about;
http://www.waterfordboundaryreview.ie/submissions/online/Stephanie%20Taheny.pdf

That makes for incredibly depressing reading. You have to ask yourself, who is in charge and what is their agenda? The sheer size of the Ferrybank complex versus existing shopping facilities in Waterford and the invention of terms like 'Gateway Suburban Centre' is extraordinary.

It also helps answers the question that our non-hurling Kilkenny friend asks about what are the economic arguments for an extension: Firstly, you have two (or more) sets of council planners examining plans, sometimes because of joint jurisdiction such as the Árd RÍ site, and sometimes because, as with Ferrybank Shopping Centre, Kilkenny Council was acting in clear breach of the National Spatial Strategy and to the detriment of Waterford city centre. Secondly you have one set of planners in Kilkenny who clearly couldn't give a monkeys if Waterford City Centre, already struggling, is decimated entirely.

(On a side note: "Motor Showrooms" with stepped access!!!!! You've got to laugh at the developer and the Kilkenny planners trying to pull that one off, surely they could think of a better disguise than that?).

padraig.od · 15-03-2016 11:52am

Deise Vu wrote: »

That makes for incredibly depressing reading. You have to ask yourself, who is in charge and what is their agenda? The sheer size of the Ferrybank complex versus existing shopping facilities in Waterford and the invention of terms like 'Gateway Suburban Centre' is extraordinary.

It also helps answers the question that our non-hurling Kilkenny friend asks about what are the economic arguments for an extension: Firstly, you have two (or more) sets of council planners examining plans, sometimes because of joint jurisdiction such as the Árd RÍ site, and sometimes because, as with Ferrybank Shopping Centre, Kilkenny Council was acting in clear breach of the National Spatial Strategy and to the detriment of Waterford city centre. Secondly you have one set of planners in Kilkenny who clearly couldn't give a monkeys if Waterford City Centre, already struggling, is decimated entirely.

(On a side note: "Motor Showrooms" with stepped access!!!!! You've got to laugh at the developer and the Kilkenny planners trying to pull that one off, surely they could think of a better disguise than that?).

Did anyone ask An Bord Pleanála to look at FSC? Sorry don't know the full planning history of the shopping centre.

Deise Vu · 15-03-2016 12:22pm

padraig.od wrote: »

Did anyone ask An Bord Pleanála to look at FSC? Sorry don't know the full planning history of the shopping centre.

According to Stephanie Taheny's detailed submission (incidentally she is a former planner and wife of Kilkenny man Noel Frisby) BP rejected the first plans which had been approved by Kilkenny City Council at December 2004. Those plans were for 37,675 sq m and were rejected on the grounds of "its bulk, mass and scale, it's monolithic structure and internalised nature".

So naturally the developer came back with new plans and Kilkenny Council, in deference to BP's clear comments, duly authorised a 64,289 sq m development!!!! (City Square is 31,000 Sq ms). As Ms Taheny puts it: "unbelievable but true". She says that objectors were not prepared for the second proposal as the first had been so comprehensively rejected by BP and the one local objector subsequently withdrew their objection leaving KCC a clear field to grant permission, despite BP's earlier observations. And, needless to say, they duly did so which should be game, set and match against anyone who thinks they are fit to adjudicate on planning applications in the Ferrybank area.

Dunmoreroader · 15-03-2016 12:55pm

Would love to see the list of Councillors who voted all this through. No doubt will include a who's who of S.Kilkenny's staunchest defenders from the Piltown Electoral Area. Anyone know how to access this?

Deise Vu · 15-03-2016 1:27pm

Dunmoreroader wrote: »

Would love to see the list of Councillors who voted all this through. No doubt will include a who's who of S.Kilkenny's staunchest defenders from the Piltown Electoral Area. Anyone know how to access this?

In fairness, no Councillor anywhere, is going to vote against any development in their area when all the negative effects of the development are going to occur in a different constituency. It would be more interesting to note the one who voted against (presumably a Green, who might actually read and understand things like Spatial Strategy?)

Yes Boss · 15-03-2016 3:52pm

I would love to see a copy of the appeal that was withdrawn. There are many reasons as to why an appeal could be withdrawn, however if I was a developer with that size of a development and one objector - I would ensure that appeal was withdrawn.

Deise Vu · 15-03-2016 4:24pm

Yes Boss wrote: »

I would love to see a copy of the appeal that was withdrawn. There are many reasons as to why an appeal could be withdrawn, however if I was a developer with that size of a development and one objector - I would ensure that appeal was withdrawn.

I'm sure his or her concerns were adequately dealt with.;)

What is amazing in hindsight is that so many others took their eyes off the ball. Where were the objections from Waterford City Council, Carrick and New Ross who all had objections in against the original, smaller, plan? If this had gone to Bord Pleanála, it would have been rejected out of hand.

Yes Boss · 15-03-2016 4:35pm

Deise Vu wrote: »

I'm sure his or her concerns were adequately dealt with.;)

What is amazing in hindsight is that so many others took their eyes off the ball. Where were the objections from Waterford City Council, Carrick and New Ross who all had objections in against the original, smaller, plan? If this had gone to Bord Pleanála, it would have been rejected out of hand.

Crazy really that all the others were not aware of, or chose not to appeal this application. Nuts!

Deise Vu · 15-03-2016 4:51pm

Yes Boss wrote: »

Crazy really that all the others were not aware of, or chose not to appeal this application. Nuts!

Just to be clear. There was an original application of over 30,000 Sq ms which was thrown out by Bord Pleanála as being too big after objections from, among others, Waterford City Council, Carrick Town Council and New Ross Town Council.

There was a second application for over twice the original size (!!!!!) which was passed when the one objector withdrew his objection. I have no idea why individual objectors and these Councils did not object the second time but Stephanie Taheny seems to be of the opinion that that it was due to the first application being so comprehensively rejected. I presume that means everyone assumed Kilkenny would reject the second one automatically.

Dunmoreroader · 16-03-2016 6:35pm

http://www.kilkennypeople.ie/news/kilkenny-news/67835/-Council-hopes-changes-can-bring.html
brought it in the right direction alright. :rolleyes:

Dunmoreroader · 16-03-2016 6:49pm

http://www.kilkennycoco.ie/eng/Services/Planning/Local%20Area%20Plans/Adopted_Local_Area_Plans/Ferrybank_Local_Area_Plan/Manager's_Report_on_Submission_to_Alteration.pdf
I don't really understand this but according to Ms. Taheny it refers to some of the sleight of hand that took place.

Parachutes · 31-03-2016 4:44am

What is the situation as it stands regarding the border extension?

Max Powers · 12-04-2016 8:52am

In the munster express there is an article about housing shortage in kk area.one councillor from kk comments that they don't get much help from Waterford council dealing with their requests fir housing help in the south kk area, yet the next line it admits that there is little housing provision in the area (by kk council).another example of kk council forgetting about the south of its county yet they expect Waterford council to hand over houses it has in south kk and Fbank to them. What planet are these councillors on especially when you take into account the current shortages.

Jambo · 12-04-2016 10:39am

Max Powers wrote: »

In the munster express there is an article about housing shortage in kk area.one councillor from kk comments that they don't get much help from Waterford council dealing with their requests fir housing help in the south kk area, yet the next line it admits that there is little housing provision in the area (by kk council).another example of kk council forgetting about the south of its county yet they expect Waterford council to hand over houses it has in south kk and Fbank to them. What planet are these councillors on especially when you take into account the current shortages.

I haven't seen the Article but would think there's an element of rubbish to it with regards the supply issue by some councillor looking for publicity. Was it a SF councillor by any chance ?

NAMA Has delivered 44 Social Houses in Ferrybank (that I personally know of) in the Past 18-24 Months

Out of the 44 Units - three remain empty and unoccupied even though they are fully furnished and waiting for occupants since January ! If Demand was an issue I am sure these units would be occupied by now.

A quick look on the NAMA Social Housing website shows that Nama has Identified 183 Houses that they could make available for social housing in Co Kilkenny, The Council Confirmed that theres only a Demand for 63 Units and which 57 of that 63 have now been delivered to date. (The latter figures are from Dec 2015 and do not include the unoccupied units delivered since Jan)

Max Powers · 12-04-2016 11:25am

Jambo wrote: »

I haven't seen the Article but would think there's an element of rubbish to it with regards the supply issue by some councillor looking for publicity. Was it a SF councillor by any chance ?

NAMA Has delivered 44 Social Houses in Ferrybank (that I personally know of) in the Past 18-24 Months

Out of the 44 Units - three remain empty and unoccupied even though they are fully furnished and waiting for occupants since January ! If Demand was an issue I am sure these units would be occupied by now.

A quick look on the NAMA Social Housing website shows that Nama has Identified 183 Houses that they could make available for social housing in Co Kilkenny, The Council Confirmed that theres only a Demand for 63 Units and which 57 of that 63 have now been delivered to date. (The latter figures are from Dec 2015 and do not include the unoccupied units delivered since Jan)

Ff and Sf councillors.fair play on getting those nama figures but who owns what houses..kk or Waterford councils either way, unless one council had a big over supply, they are hardly going to hand over houses if the other does not adequately invest in the area.I know Waterford council has numerous houses in that area, is that the 63 you refer to.

Jambo · 12-04-2016 1:32pm

Max Powers wrote: »

Ff and Sf councillors.fair play on getting those nama figures but who owns what houses..kk or Waterford councils either way, unless one council had a big over supply, they are hardly going to hand over houses if the other does not adequately invest in the area.I know Waterford council has numerous houses in that area, is that the 63 you refer to.

All KK CoCo Figures

beazee · 12-04-2016 4:10pm

Say the Boundary Extension happens would that mean it will be WCCC to supply drinking water to all the houses in the area?

If so, looks like hard water issues (Kilkenny side of Ferrybank) residents are complaining will be an issue of the past!
Kilkenny draws it's drinking water from Kilmacow wells reaching deep down to Waulsortian Limestone layer (limestone being a key word there!).

While for Waterford we're talking surface water reservoirs - Knockaderry Lake, Ballyshonnock Lake, River Clodiagh and River Mahon.
How could one object such a remarkable change in their situation?

Max Powers · 13-04-2016 8:05am

Jambo wrote: »

All KK CoCo Figures

So how many houses do kk council have in area, not south of kk town but actually around the ferrybank,ORR area? There the figures which are important, not nama houses.

mire · 13-04-2016 8:18am

There is no rational justification for not extending the boundary to incorporate the built up area of the city that happens to lie in another administration. Cities' boundaries should be adapted on occasion to include their built up areas; this should be done using evidence and on the basis of the responsibility to govern responsibly and effectively.

Arguments from elected members and others about pipes, bins, GAA, identity, history,'who-did-what-when', lebensraum, 'ya couldn't trust that crowd' should be given the level of attention that they deserve - none.

Extend the boundary, do it properly. Ignore the bluster.

BBM77 · 13-04-2016 8:54am

Max Powers wrote: »

In the munster express there is an article about housing shortage in kk area.one councillor from kk comments that they don't get much help from Waterford council dealing with their requests fir housing help in the south kk area, yet the next line it admits that there is little housing provision in the area (by kk council).another example of kk council forgetting about the south of its county yet they expect Waterford council to hand over houses it has in south kk and Fbank to them. What planet are these councillors on especially when you take into account the current shortages.

I know for a fact that when people in Slieverue go to Kilkenny County Council about some problem they have they get told that Slieverue is in Waterford and the problem is not theirs. What plant are they on indeed.

Jambo · 04-05-2016 7:26am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Decision now not due until May.

Wondering if there will be a decision this s month or will there be further delays?

7upfree · 05-05-2016 6:13pm

Jambo wrote: »

Wondering if there will be a decision this s month or will there be further delays?

Never going to happen.

Jambo · 05-05-2016 9:44pm

7upfree wrote: »

Never going to happen.

A delay or Decision?

Jamie2k9 · 05-05-2016 11:54pm

John H should of blackmailed FG into allowing it happen :rolleyes:

Squidvicious · 06-05-2016 2:13pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

John H should of blackmailed FG into allowing it happen :rolleyes:

Perhaps he thought that a boundary extension would make little or no real difference to Waterford and that there were far more important things to negotiate for?

Squidvicious · 06-05-2016 2:18pm

BBM77 wrote: »

I know for a fact that when people in Slieverue go to Kilkenny County Council about some problem they have they get told that Slieverue is in Waterford and the problem is not theirs. What plant are they on indeed.

This comes as a surprise to me, particularly bearing in mind that KKCC has a office in Ferrybank. I'm a "borderer" myself (Kilkenny side) and have never had this problem. Sounds more like urban myth to me.

Boundary Extension for City?

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